Ponzi "Game" == Negative Trust?

[Quickseller]

Until it can be proved that the operator of the scheme or his alts are not in the queue for payment, a queue that they can both anticipate and manipulate, then players in the "game" cannot possibly know that the returns that are promised are achievable.

In an honest ponzi, the returns should not be guaranteed.

It is up to the players to figure out if the operator is in the queue. Being able to detect such schemes is a skill a good ponzi player should have. If the operator promised he wasn't in the payment queue and later on it was found that he was, then he would be untrustworthy, but if no such promise was made then thats a risk the players take when playing the ponzi.

This should be implied. I cannot in any way see how it would be fair to have a casino betting against their own players. Doing so would be similar to a casino that accepts bankroll investments to play against the house

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[michaeladair]

Until it can be proved that the operator of the scheme or his alts are not in the queue for payment, a queue that they can both anticipate and manipulate, then players in the "game" cannot possibly know that the returns that are promised are achievable.

In an honest ponzi, the returns should not be guaranteed.

It is up to the players to figure out if the operator is in the queue. Being able to detect such schemes is a skill a good ponzi player should have. If the operator promised he wasn't in the payment queue and later on it was found that he was, then he would be untrustworthy, but if no such promise was made then thats a risk the players take when playing the ponzi.

This should be implied. I cannot in any way see how it would be fair to have a casino betting against their own players. Doing so would be similar to a casino that accepts bankroll investments to play against the house

Fucking poker you dumbass... Poker websites have people betting against players...

[Quickseller]

Any gambling site can run with the money and these sites are just games that are based off ponzis...

True, however ponzi games are designed so that people will trust them with exponentially growing amounts of money after a very short period of time.

All other gambling sites have much slow deposit growth. Also all the gamblers money must be trusted with the ponzi "game's" operator at once while a casino will need to process withdrawals from players throughout the day and if they stop players will obviously stop depositing additional funds there

[Quickseller]

Until it can be proved that the operator of the scheme or his alts are not in the queue for payment, a queue that they can both anticipate and manipulate, then players in the "game" cannot possibly know that the returns that are promised are achievable.

In an honest ponzi, the returns should not be guaranteed.

It is up to the players to figure out if the operator is in the queue. Being able to detect such schemes is a skill a good ponzi player should have. If the operator promised he wasn't in the payment queue and later on it was found that he was, then he would be untrustworthy, but if no such promise was made then thats a risk the players take when playing the ponzi.

This should be implied. I cannot in any way see how it would be fair to have a casino betting against their own players. Doing so would be similar to a casino that accepts bankroll investments to play against the house

Fucking poker you dumbass... Poker websites have people betting against players...

The same is true for PvP dice sites. However the operator is not playing against the players (who would have an obvious advantage)

[michaeladair]

Any gambling site can run with the money and these sites are just games that are based off ponzis...

True, however ponzi games are designed so that people will trust them with exponentially growing amounts of money after a very short period of time.

All other gambling sites have much slow deposit growth. Also all the gamblers money must be trusted with the ponzi "game's" operator at once while a casino will need to process withdrawals from players throughout the day and if they stop players will obviously stop depositing additional funds there

Most ponzi game sites here automatically send out after 1 confirmation, so the amount in the wallet at one time can be limited.

Anyways, you are giving them negative trust essentially because they have the OPPURTUNITY to scam. That isn't right at all...

Seals with clubs for example probably has a ton of btc in their wallets, why not give them negative trust too? They have a large opportunity to scam.

[cryptopaths]

Well Michael, this is the 2nd time you have used your position on the default trust list to try to censor my actions.

Are you serious man? You accused me on my thread of scamming for literally no reason and made baseless accusations against me because I suggested the trust system be revised. Note that I am neither positive or negative I am unbiased and made this suggestion because I saw the trust system being abused. And now you get negged and you know what? That's a taste of your own medicine you were making baseless accusations against me now someone has negged you. It's funny how much of a hypocrite you are you were calling me a scammer for asking to revise the trust system now your wining asking for the trust system to be revised because you have been negged. For the record I think Michael was right in giving you negative trust because quickseller you were blindly giving out negative trust to ponzis without using your head.

Justice served

[michaeladair]

Any gambling site can run with the money and these sites are just games that are based off ponzis...

True, however ponzi games are designed so that people will trust them with exponentially growing amounts of money after a very short period of time.

All other gambling sites have much slow deposit growth. Also all the gamblers money must be trusted with the ponzi "game's" operator at once while a casino will need to process withdrawals from players throughout the day and if they stop players will obviously stop depositing additional funds there

Most ponzi game sites here automatically send out after 1 confirmation, so the amount in the wallet at one time can be limited.

Anyways, you are giving them negative trust essentially because they have the OPPURTUNITY to scam. That isn't right at all...

Seals with clubs for example probably has a ton of btc in their wallets, why not give them negative trust too? They have a large opportunity to scam.

How silly of me, I didn't even mention the exchanges that have the capacity to haul out millions of dollars worth of bitcoin at will!!! Those guys deserve negative trust, maybe even jail time.

[Blazr]

Well Michael, this is the 2nd time you have used your position on the default trust list to try to censor my actions.

I don't see it as censoring your actions at all. He made a valid point.

They can also get screwed if the operator of the game decides he has enough money to make it worth his while to run away with investor money

Thats the case with pretty much any Bitcoin business. Remember mybitcoin.com?

A ponzi is a ponzi. The game is based on building up trust. It works like this, the ponzi operator first either buys up or creates a bunch of newbie accounts to act as their shills. Then then use a mixing service to spread out their own money into various addresses to make it look like each address is coming from a different person. When they start the ponzi game few other people will "invest" however the shills will push the ponzi game and will vouch when they end up winning. This makes it appear that they are trustworthy. The next round a few more people will play along with the shills. The shills will obviously all win and the "real" people will sometimes win but at a lower then expected rate. Their trust is now built up a little more. The process continues until the ponzi "game" operator is trusted by various "players" enough so that they control a very large amount of bitcoin at one time.

And you have proof that every single ponzi website on BitcoinTalk goes through this same procedure? Because it seems you are leaving negative trust on EVERY ponzi website. Of course ponzi's have risks and some may be untrustworthy, but I don't think you have investigated all of those websites that you negged enough to know if they are untrustworthy. You were just blindly giving out negs to every ponzi site.

[Quickseller]

In an honest game of chance the odds should estimatable by the player, yes.

A ponzi isn't a game of chance, it is more skill based like poker. You need to know which ponzi to "invest" in, get in early and get out at the first sign of trouble and know how to spot signs of trouble too.

It is likely that the ponzi site is going to steal all investor money in one swoop, not over any period of time. The first sign of trouble is that no one received their payout even though some people should. The ponzi "game" would obviously be abandoned and the operator would create a new account to repeat the process.

How could anyone figure out if the operator or his alts was in the queue?
If the operator promised.............lol

Thats like saying how can you figure out your opponents hand in a game of poker. A good ponzi player will use things like blockchain analysis and his experience to try and figure that out, similar to how a poker player uses 'tells' to try and figure out his opponents hand.

The ponzi operator will have an unlimited amount of time to launder/mix bitcoin to make it appear that they are not playing against their players. The players on the other hand will have a much shorter time frame to check this. From what I have seen, many people "reinvest" their money back into the ponzi after receiving payouts so seeing money go from the ponzi back into the ponzi would be expected

[michaeladair]

In an honest game of chance the odds should estimatable by the player, yes.

A ponzi isn't a game of chance, it is more skill based like poker. You need to know which ponzi to "invest" in, get in early and get out at the first sign of trouble and know how to spot signs of trouble too.

It is likely that the ponzi site is going to steal all investor money in one swoop, not over any period of time. The first sign of trouble is that no one received their payout even though some people should. The ponzi "game" would obviously be abandoned and the operator would create a new account to repeat the process.

How could anyone figure out if the operator or his alts was in the queue?
If the operator promised.............lol

Thats like saying how can you figure out your opponents hand in a game of poker. A good ponzi player will use things like blockchain analysis and his experience to try and figure that out, similar to how a poker player uses 'tells' to try and figure out his opponents hand.

The ponzi operator will have an unlimited amount of time to launder/mix bitcoin to make it appear that they are not playing against their players. The players on the other hand will have a much shorter time frame to check this. From what I have seen, many people "reinvest" their money back into the ponzi after receiving payouts so seeing money go from the ponzi back into the ponzi would be expected

You are negative trusting people that have the capactiy to scam! Why aren't you negative trusting Exchanges or other gambling websites?

[Blazr]

It is likely that the ponzi site is going to steal all investor money in one swoop, not over any period of time. The first sign of trouble is that no one received their payout even though some people should. The ponzi "game" would obviously be abandoned and the operator would create a new account to repeat the process.

The skill is to try and determine when the site will stop paying. This may start with obvious signs like late or missed payments, but it may also be when the owner decides the ponzi has gotten to a certain size. So estimating the size of the ponzi funds and the rate it is growing at is is another way to tell. A really skilled player may even decide to invest more funds  when they think the owner is going to close up in order to try and prolong the ponzi.

The ponzi operator will have an unlimited amount of time to launder/mix bitcoin to make it appear that they are not playing against their players. The players on the other hand will have a much shorter time frame to check this. From what I have seen, many people "reinvest" their money back into the ponzi after receiving payouts so seeing money go from the ponzi back into the ponzi would be expected

Well if the owner is using mixers then a skilled player will find out which ones he is using and ignore payments that are tainted by those mixers. And of course they reinvest, you should reinvest if you think it is still likely to pay out.

Point is, not all ponzi's are scams, don't paint them all with the same brush.

[Quickseller]

Well Michael, this is the 2nd time you have used your position on the default trust list to try to censor my actions.

I don't see it as censoring your actions at all. He made a valid point.

Look at the trust he left me. Do you think leaving negative trust for ponzi operators is in any way scamming?

They can also get screwed if the operator of the game decides he has enough money to make it worth his while to run away with investor money

Thats the case with pretty much any Bitcoin business. Remember mybitcoin.com?[/quote]No that was before my time, but I will trust that they eventually ran away with people's money after being trusted with a lot of it. The point is however any ponzi game will be trusted with a lot of money in a very short amount of time if they act 'honesty' for only a few 'rounds'. It was pointed out in another meta thread somewhat recently that everyone has their breaking point, and ponzi's are designed to attract a lot of money very quickly so the operator's breaking point will quickly be reached

A ponzi is a ponzi. The game is based on building up trust. It works like this, the ponzi operator first either buys up or creates a bunch of newbie accounts to act as their shills. Then then use a mixing service to spread out their own money into various addresses to make it look like each address is coming from a different person. When they start the ponzi game few other people will "invest" however the shills will push the ponzi game and will vouch when they end up winning. This makes it appear that they are trustworthy. The next round a few more people will play along with the shills. The shills will obviously all win and the "real" people will sometimes win but at a lower then expected rate. Their trust is now built up a little more.[ The process continues until the ponzi "game" operator is trusted by various "players" enough so that they control a very large amount of bitcoin at one time.

And you have proof that every single ponzi website on BitcoinTalk goes through this same procedure? Because it seems you are leaving negative trust on EVERY ponzi website. Of course ponzi's have risks and some may be untrustworthy, but I don't think you have investigated all of those websites that you negged enough to know if they are untrustworthy. You were just blindly giving them out to every ponzi site.

No but this is the procedure that the successful ones go though (at least this is what they do from my viewpoint). (this only applies to the bolded part about the shills).

The part about building up trust is what happens. It is how pirate40 was able to run away with so much money (from what I have read), it is how dicebitco.in was able to attract such a large bankroll to steal from. This is what every ponzi site/game did as of last week (and probably not mistakenly, all at the same time)

[michaeladair]

Well Michael, this is the 2nd time you have used your position on the default trust list to try to censor my actions.

I don't see it as censoring your actions at all. He made a valid point.

Look at the trust he left me. Do you think leaving negative trust for ponzi operators is in any way scamming?
[/quote]
I never said you scammed, I left you negative trust because I don't "trust the trust that you leave" its not accurate in my eyes therefore it can't be trusted.

[koshgel]

You think the idea of a ponzi "GAME" is new? They were here last year too.

Why are there no long term ponzi games if it so fair and profitable for an operator? But dice sites, casinos, and sportsbook have been in the Bitcoin world for years?

Michaeladair your arguments are weak and your promotions of ponzis is shameful

[michaeladair]

You think the idea of a ponzi "GAME" is new? They were here last year too.

Why are there no long term ponzi games if it so fair and profitable for an operator? But dice sites, casinos, and sportsbook have been in the Bitcoin world for years?

Michaeladair your arguments are weak and your promotions of ponzis is shameful

I dont promote all ponzi games, i just dont believe in leaving negative trust... Also theyre Ponzi Games... GAMES. i

[alani123]

I don't think that the negative trust is because of them running a game as you call it. it's rather the fact that whatever is going to happen the owner is going to get away with people's BTC.

[michaeladair]

I don't think that the negative trust is because of them running a game as you call it. it's rather the fact that whatever is going to happen the owner is going to get away with people's BTC.

I mean, this isn't anything different from a casino site? They have the same capacity to scam... Or even an exchange?

[koshgel]

You think the idea of a ponzi "GAME" is new? They were here last year too.

Why are there no long term ponzi games if it so fair and profitable for an operator? But dice sites, casinos, and sportsbook have been in the Bitcoin world for years?

Michaeladair your arguments are weak and your promotions of ponzis is shameful

I dont promote all ponzi games, i just dont believe in leaving negative trust... Also theyre Ponzi Games... GAMES. i

You didn't answer my point above that

"You think the idea of a ponzi "GAME" is new? They were here last year too.

Why are there no long term ponzi games if it so fair and profitable for an operator? But dice sites, casinos, and sportsbook have been in the Bitcoin world for years?"

[Quickseller]

It is likely that the ponzi site is going to steal all investor money in one swoop, not over any period of time. The first sign of trouble is that no one received their payout even though some people should. The ponzi "game" would obviously be abandoned and the operator would create a new account to repeat the process.

The skill is to try and determine when the site will stop paying. This may start with obvious signs like late or missed payments, but it may also be when the owner decides the ponzi has gotten to a certain size. So estimating the size of the ponzi funds and the rate it is growing at is is another way to tell. A really skilled player may even decide to invest more funds  when they think the owner is going to close up in order to try and prolong the ponzi.

I don't see how investing more funds would prolong the ponzi. If the owner is going to run away with investor funds then investing more would just give them a bigger take.

I don't think a ponzi would have any real reason to be "late" with payments because the money is all "there" in the unspent inputs of their ponzi address. A missed payment would obviously mean they have run away with investor money.

The ponzi operator will have an unlimited amount of time to launder/mix bitcoin to make it appear that they are not playing against their players. The players on the other hand will have a much shorter time frame to check this. From what I have seen, many people "reinvest" their money back into the ponzi after receiving payouts so seeing money go from the ponzi back into the ponzi would be expected

Well if the owner is using mixers then a skilled player will find out which ones he is using and ignore payments that are tainted by those mixers. And of course they reinvest, you should reinvest if you think it is still likely to pay out.

It would be expected that many players would either buy funds from an exchange or withdraw from other casinos to play the ponzi. A ponzi operator could counter this countermeasure by depositing funds on various exchanges and casinos and then withdraw to fresh addresses.

Point is, not all ponzi's are scams, don't paint them all with the same brush.

They are asking to be trusted with gamblers' money. Most of the ponzi's that I gave negative trust to were brand new accounts. Picking a random ponzi that I gave negative trust to (BTC-Pyramid-Ponzi) their first post is advertising their site. Looking at their site their minimum investment is .005 BTC. This is very similar to a brand new user asking for a loan on their first post. Would you trust a brand new user with .005 BTC if they promised to repay after x days? I assume the answer is 'no' and the reason is because you do not think they will repay. Why do you think it is that so many brand new accounts were created to promote ponzis? Do you think it had anything to do with the fact that they plan on eventually running away?

Your points about how a skilled ponzi player can avoid loosing money all involve ways to detect when the operator is trying to cheat. Do you think it would be fair to say that any casino that is actively trying to cheat players would be considered a scam?

[Blazr]

I find it quite funny how many people here supports for free market trade, against regulation etc but once something like an honest ponzi comes around suddenly they are like "THIS WEBSITE IS ILLEGAL OMG GOVERNMENT SAVE ME AND SHUT DOWN THIS ILLEGAL WEBSITE. EVERYONE WHO SUPPORTS THEM SHOULD BE ARRESTED NSA USE 0DAYZ TO PWN THE OWNERS AND JAIL THEM". The ponzi doesn't lie, it does exactly what it says it will do, if people want to play ponzi's knowing the risks then let them.