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Author Topic: Safest Wallet  (Read 6723 times)
deisik
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November 08, 2013, 04:13:47 PM
 #61

theres no safest wallet if its online , save it in paper or your computer !

And still better in your head!!!

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Barek
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November 08, 2013, 04:16:25 PM
 #62

theres no safest wallet if its online , save it in paper or your computer !

And still better in your head!!!

Just make sure you don't get into an accident, or get old, or do something to forget it. Wink

Boot to the Head
deisik
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November 08, 2013, 04:32:08 PM
 #63

Just make sure you don't get into an accident, or get old, or do something to forget it. Wink

Boot to the Head

But no one will ever suspect you of anything!
Unless they finally get into your head... Grin

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November 08, 2013, 04:55:40 PM
 #64

Imagine demetia sets in and you remember that you own coins worth millions, but you cannot recall the pass phrase.

 Shocked
deisik
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November 08, 2013, 05:04:32 PM
 #65

Imagine demetia sets in and you remember that you own coins worth millions, but you cannot recall the pass phrase.

 Shocked

Just fancy you begin to recall passwords forgotten in your youth... Shocked
Though I doubt Bitcoin will live up to that, so in any case it won't matter

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November 08, 2013, 05:39:27 PM
 #66

How safe would a on-line wallet be if the only open port was 8333?
RoxxR
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November 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
 #67


But why would you put yourself to that risk when you can use something like Diceware? Humans suck at choosing passwords!

http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html

theres no safest wallet if its online , save it in paper or your computer !

Diceware is not online nor offline wallet and has nothing to do with bitcoin itself. Diceware is not even online password generator (although there are some).

Diceware is a method to pick a strong pass phrase completely offline and completely random!

Using ordinary dice, pen and paper.


This. I'm a huge fan of diceware.

EDIT: Just found this little tool that uses diceware to paper/brainwallets:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308972.0
deisik
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November 08, 2013, 05:46:50 PM
 #68

How safe would a on-line wallet be if the only open port was 8333?

It is impossible to say. It is not even known from your post where this port is open (client or server). All online wallets are insecure by definition, period

auzaar
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November 08, 2013, 06:53:56 PM
 #69

Not insecure, I missed a critical step here, generate private key yourself using any combinations of sha256, and use bitaddress.org just to get address and key in proper format, I don't think how can a fishing site not connected to internet can screw at that stage.

Piece o'cake! It would save the keys in cookies and after you plug your connection in again... Don't trust no sites whether connected or not!!!
Are you silly enough to reconnect just then and open a site in non-incognito mode?
deisik
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November 08, 2013, 07:06:48 PM
 #70

Are you silly enough to reconnect just then and open a site in non-incognito mode?

Me?! Shocked
It was not my scheme, lol Grin

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November 09, 2013, 04:00:18 PM
 #71

Grin Did you even click the link? Diceware is no software. It's just a list of words and you use simple dice (yes offline dice lol) to pick random words. You don't even have to use that word list. Nothing is safer for picking pass-phrases. Not any kind of computer or software.

Edit: If worried about forgetting it, you can write it down (in stone/metal maybe?) & split pass-phrase into 3 pieces and bury it in different locations. Not only it's cool (hidden treasure) it's also healthy as probably you'll spend weeks digging trying to find all the pieces.  Grin

Ok, I thought a programm would pick out words Smiley
I'm aware that pass phrasses are safe and good passwords but I think I have a hard time remembering it. I have now made 4 addresses. Some with words that make sense for me. The most important thing will be that it is sufficient long. So at least 20 letters which gives at least 20^36 entropy (I don't use capital letters who does?).

And now I also printed it and put it into a safe of a person which is reliable.(in the case I forget or pass away)

"Morality, it could be argued, represents the way that people would like the world to work - whereas economics represents how it actually does work." Freakonomics
flatfly
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November 09, 2013, 04:13:23 PM
 #72

Grin Did you even click the link? Diceware is no software. It's just a list of words and you use simple dice (yes offline dice lol) to pick random words. You don't even have to use that word list. Nothing is safer for picking pass-phrases. Not any kind of computer or software.

Edit: If worried about forgetting it, you can write it down (in stone/metal maybe?) & split pass-phrase into 3 pieces and bury it in different locations. Not only it's cool (hidden treasure) it's also healthy as probably you'll spend weeks digging trying to find all the pieces.  Grin

Ok, I thought a programm would pick out words Smiley
I'm aware that pass phrasses are safe and good passwords but I think I have a hard time remembering it. I have now made 4 addresses. Some with words that make sense for me. The most important thing will be that it is sufficient long. So at least 20 letters which gives at least 20^36 entropy (I don't use capital letters who does?).

And now I also printed it and put it into a safe of a person which is reliable.(in the case I forget or pass away)

Sorry, that's 36^20, not 20^36 - which is still strong enough, assuming characters are picked randomly. If not, I would expect a hack sooner or later. Just a friendly heads-up.

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November 09, 2013, 04:31:42 PM
 #73


So you think Armory is user friendly ? This is a brand new category of user friendliness to me, as it requires more than 8gb of ram to run, older and not so cheap computers that can be used for actual safe cold storage are immediately ruled out.

That is not true.  Running offline you don't have the blockchain and you are only signing transactions.  It only uses a small amount of memory and old computers are find for cold storage.  I loaded Lubuntu on an old laptop.

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phillipsjk
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November 09, 2013, 06:59:22 PM
 #74

That is not paranoid at all, it should be the default operation mode for all the bitcoin users. Encrypting the wallet is the basic stuff and a must. Truecrypt partition complements that well, good reminder.

Ok, so what is paranoid mode then? For true security maniacs?

I did not read the whole thread, but saw a couple of joke answers to this. The truly paranoid will avoid Truecrypt because of the weird license. I am not sure how much encryption actually increases your security. If you decide to encrypt your wallets, you still have to store the (high entropy) pass-phrase somewhere.

The first thing to realize is that you are guarding against two equally devastating losses of Bitcoin: theft and losing the private key. Copying the private key and storing it in a remote location will guard against the second risk, but may increase the first risk. If one location gets raided by police or thieves, it may give you time to spend the compromised coins first, but I would not count on that fact. For Bitcoin there is no deposit insurance to replace your coins in the event of fire: so you really should consider geographically separate storage locations.

If you want to back up to more than 2 locations, consider encrypting the wallet, then splitting the key with Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme. If one location is destroyed or compromised (or added), you would regenerate the keys at the remaining locations.

I think it is unrealistic to have a machine that never touched the Internet: but once used as a offline wallet generator, should never touch the Internet again (unless carefully wiped). This implies disconnecting the network, wireless cards, as well as any microphones and sound-cards. If the OS you are using supports autorun, disable it.  I recommend choosing a generic live CD you hope does not have a compromised random number generator. You should try to copy all of the tools you need over to the machine when you are initially setting it up: because introducing code later is always a risk.

When printing your paper wallet, try to choose a printer that is as "dumb" as possible. That means no network (wired or wireless). Hard-drives storing every printed document are also a no-no. For printing my vanity addresses, I used a dot-matrix printer with about 32kB of RAM. That RAM gets cleared when the printer is powered off. Newer computers lack the necessary parallel ports though Tongue

I should write a guide on how to set up a "secure computer" and post it on my web-site. My only worry is that the NSA or CSEC will then know how to work around my precautions Tongue

PS: Don't trust hardware random number generators: run their output trough AES (in CBC mode) with a long key that you then delete.
Note: "high entropy" means never published. The "common crawl" dataset (Text of the Internet!) is about 81TB and freely available on Amazon Web Services (still need to pay Amazon to process it though).


- think about a good, strong password, which is easy to remember (first letters of your all time favarite song)


Those are published on the internet. since most people probably don't have over 5 favorite songs, we are talking 50 bits of entropy, max. Over 64 is better, over 80 should be good, 128 is secure. To guarantee entropy, pass-phrases should be randomly generated.

edit I mis-read that as "first letter of your all time favorite songs." Make that 20 bits of entropy (max, or about 125,000 songs with 32 variations).

theres no safest wallet if its online , save it in paper or your computer !

And still better in your head!!!

This does not protect against forgotten pass-phrase unless the key is simple enough that it does not protect against wallet theft.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
deisik
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November 09, 2013, 07:19:11 PM
 #75

That is not paranoid at all, it should be the default operation mode for all the bitcoin users. Encrypting the wallet is the basic stuff and a must. Truecrypt partition complements that well, good reminder.

Ok, so what is paranoid mode then? For true security maniacs?

I did not read the whole thread, but saw a couple of joke answers to this. The truly paranoid will avoid Truecrypt because of the weird license. I am not sure how much encryption actually increases your security. If you decide to encrypt your wallets, you still have to store the (high entropy) pass-phrase somewhere

<...>

I think for anyone with a few coins "on hand" it's a bit overkill... Grin

Though who knows how much those coins will be priced for in a few years! Cool


Mjbmonetarymetals
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November 09, 2013, 08:37:17 PM
 #76

The wallet .dat is very much like Del boys butterfly it's designed to keep you on your toe's, one false move or slip of the hand from the uninitiated and pfffft gone for good of course I speak as an idiot who needs an idiot proof wallet. 
This chap here lost 9000btc in 2010 worth over 3 million dollars today https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=782.0


marcotheminer
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November 09, 2013, 11:02:39 PM
 #77

theres no safest wallet if its online , save it in paper or your computer !

And still better in your head!!!

Until the day comes when you forget it somehow!..
The safest wallet for small amounts would be blockchain.
Just make a paper wallet aswell!
TippingPoint
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November 09, 2013, 11:33:47 PM
 #78

There are ways of recording your keys that are less likely to attract attention.  One would be using musical notation.  A full size piano keyboard contains 88 keys, which is more than enough for Base58 encoding.  And the typical entry-level digital keyboard today is 5 octaves, or 60 keys, which is just enough for Base58 encoding.  But a musical keyboard is not even required.  It can all be done from a computer.

One way (and there are other ways) of mapping a Bitcoin private key to musical notation would be:

It does not use upper case I, upper case O, the number 0, or lower case l
Since a typical uncompressed private key starts with 5, it corresponds nicely to a lower E on the treble clef.

And here is a private key in music notation:

It could be output and recorded in audio format (it is easy to do so), rather than notation, and the note durations could be changed to make it more musical and less mechanical.

Done using MuseScore
http://musescore.org/en

And there are other encoding methods available  Smiley

If these type of things make you dizzy, don't try it.


deisik
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November 10, 2013, 03:56:33 AM
 #79

Until the day comes when you forget it somehow!..

You won't if it's worth (no pun intended) to be remembered, lol!  Cool
Anyway, if this day nevertheless comes, I strongly doubt it will ever bother you... Grin

Though your heirs may have a butthurt! Grin

deisik
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November 10, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
 #80

There are ways of recording your keys that are less likely to attract attention.  One would be using musical notation.  A full size piano keyboard contains 88 keys, which is more than enough for Base58 encoding.  And the typical entry-level digital keyboard today is 5 octaves, or 60 keys, which is just enough for Base58 encoding.  But a musical keyboard is not required.  It can all be done from a computer.

Could the keys be saved as knocks? Cool
So, when Bitcoin is finally outlawed, we could keep going some form of trade in jail... Grin

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