Israel

[Anonymous]

I am watching Obama speaking at this Israeli conference and I have a few questions: Is it really in the United State's best interest to have a strong investment in Israel's security? Does the US really sustain Israel's sovereignty in the long-run? Can we afford this?

...and most of all, would the US be more secure if we just minded our own business especially when it comes to Israeli conflicts?

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Israel is a dick, we shouldn't be supporting them.

[speeder]

Note that US have no choice in that matter.

US, as state, and US, as the most wealthy and important (both economically, socially and politically) business, owe a lot to Israel (as state) or israelis.


It is pretty simple: Or US support Israel, or Israel (and its citizens) withdraw their money... That would make the dollar instantly fail as currency. US put itself between a rock and a hard place by relying on Israel for money during the country most explosive expansion phase.


I do not see any clear solution for that.

Although to me, that issue is plainly great, the downfall of US would be good (at least until someone else take US place as world asshole).

[Basiley]

does this region/country had specific problem/approach ?
IMO, no.
people are people.

Israel is a dick, we shouldn't be supporting them.

who those "we" and why Obama[guy called themselve "sionist"]should care about them ?

[frifjreigfierji]

It is pretty simple: Or US support Israel, or Israel (and its citizens) withdraw their money... That would make the dollar instantly fail as currency. US put itself between a rock and a hard place by relying on Israel for money during the country most explosive expansion phase.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA this has got to be the most retarded thing I have ever heard anyone say. Israel withdraw there money and the dollar fails? More like if USA stops funding Israel they will instantly fail. You think USA depends on Israel for money then you have shit completely backwards.

Although to me, that issue is plainly great, the downfall of US would be good (at least until someone else take US place as world asshole).

Fuck USA and fuck Israel.

[speeder]

It is pretty simple: Or US support Israel, or Israel (and its citizens) withdraw their money... That would make the dollar instantly fail as currency. US put itself between a rock and a hard place by relying on Israel for money during the country most explosive expansion phase.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA this has got to be the most retarded thing I have ever heard anyone say. Israel withdraw there money and the dollar fails? More like if USA stops funding Israel they will instantly fail. You think USA depends on Israel for money then you have shit completely backwards.

Although to me, that issue is plainly great, the downfall of US would be good (at least until someone else take US place as world asshole).

Fuck USA and fuck Israel.

Clearly you made a new account just to troll, how sad, do not have courage to use your usual nickname?

Anyway, it is simple:

Israelis lend money to US people.
US (country) give money to Israel.


If Israelis stop lending money to US people, US (as country) can threaten to remove the 3 billion they give to Israel.
If US stop giving money to Israel, Israelis can threaten to stop lending money to US citizens.

The two are locked at each other, it is pretty simple. Just search for money trails, you will see that many important (to US government, that is) corporations have Israeli investors or are funded (via money lending) by Israeli owned banks, even if the Israeli in question is only ethnic hebrew, and not a Israel citizen... but the hebrew community is quite close-knit, thus you screw with Israel, the hebrews that are citizens of your own country will get upset with you. You screw with the hebrews in your own country, and Israel will knock at your door.



I am not anti-zionist (or pro-zionist), this is only how it works. Both sides do not have much choice here, they kinda jumped out of the plane with a single parachute, they have to share it.

[thedrs]

I don't think it's an issue of Israel "controlling" the US in any financial way at all.

You could say the Chinese and Arabs have many investments in the US too and control many corporations. Corporations that donate to US govt. electives - but you don't see the US handing out support to China every month do you ?
[On a bitcoin related issue - Dubai control AMD which control ATI which controls bitcoin mining !]

First you have to be sober about which countries are supported financially by the US  (there are many):

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

I admit - Israel does appear at the top of the list but another factor to take into consideration :

The $3B given to Israel is not exactly real money, as you know, it can only be spent on US products and services which, if you think about it, is a way for the US government to flow US tax payer money back into the US economy and boost it - of course they could do that too by giving the aid money to Croatia too.

(And if you really want to know where most of that $3B goes to, ask yourself who manufactures F15 fighter planes)

Out of the ~$4T annual US budget they spend about ~$7B on foreign aid (about a tenth of a percent), I think the reason Israel is, and always was, at the top of the list, is historical - back in the days of the cold war, the US and NATO were trying to spread out globally and have geographical control points around the globe where,in case of an all out war, they can have a foothold for putting troops/missiles/re-fueling (things that can not be done from remote in case of war).

Russia was supplying all the Arab countries and the middle-east with Military support and by that it was actually controlling the whole region (try to find 1 country in the whole middle-east/golf/north africa region besides Israel at the time of the cold war, that would let the US set up base in their country against the soviet union). So here is your reason for why Israel is there at the top.

Of course these days, there are other countries in that region that the US is "befriending" - check out #2 on the list

There is no use at swearing at countries based on what you see in the news - the actual truth is always more complicated...

[thedrs]

Another, quite unbelievable fact you can find here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget

Is that the US paid in 2010, $164B as interest on its debts to other countries, taking everything into perspective (the $7B that is given as foreign aid to other countries) I would think that is the biggest issue with the US today.

The largest US debts are to China and Japan.

In any case, if worst comes to worst and the whole USD economy collapses because of this debt (and probably global conventional economy systems will follow), The US has nothing to worry... when all monetary systems fail (and now you will be thinking I am gona say something about bitcoin... but i am not) - the strongest (Military wise) nation wins and gets to build the next economy - so spending "peanuts" on military aid and much more on defence  is worth while in the end ... 

[Anonymous]

the strongest (Military wise) nation wins and gets to build the next economy - so spending "peanuts" on military aid and much more on defence  is worth while in the end ... 

I don't like this philosophy one bit. If it proves to be reality, I will not be happy.

[FooDSt4mP]

I don't think it's an issue of Israel "controlling" the US in any financial way at all.

1. What is our economy's most valued product?
2. What country has more US patents per capita than US citizens, and more firms on the NASDAQ exchange than any country besides the US?*
3. Who has an influential interest in the finances of the US?

Suggested answers:
1. Intellectual Property
2. Israel
3. Israel

* See Joe Biden's speech at Tel Aviv University: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViLI3Onwl6w ~10:45 - 11:20


Of course, if Gaddafi and friends succeed in their quest to switch to a multinational gold based currency, IP will go out the window.  Then they will be just as screwed as the US.

[jcannon98188]

I say yes, we absolutely need to support Israel. Because they are the only ally we have in the Middle East. You do realize that countries like Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. ALL hate us? We are barely able to hold the peace there. Withdrawing from Israel won't do anything to solve that either, they will always hate us, because we are the Western civilization, the (their words not mine) "Great Demon" and Israel being the "Little Demon". They WILL attack Israel, whether we support Israel or not, the only question is will we let the other nations win. Because if the Little Demon falls, they won't stop, it would just mean going back after the Great Demon.

Also, for those who claim the moral issue of not allowing Palestinians their land. Before Israel, there was no Palestinean people. All of those different nations there were from one people, the Syrians. They broke into their subgroups in order to make Israel look bad (picking on multiple small groups instead of one large one), but its all a sham. Israel needs to stand because they are the only beacon of hope there is in the middle east. Besides, let's look at the two groups goals here:

1.) Israel. Israel wants to survive. They want freedom, and they want security. The only time they ever expanded was when the middle eastern nations invaded Israel, Israel kicked their butts, and took some of their land as spoils. Israel favors religious freedom, allowing ALL religions to live peacefully there. A recent poll in Jerusalem shows that Arabs there would rather the current government of Israel be in charge, then fore a Muslim nation to take over. Israel also is pro technology, creating technology that is both saving the lives of our soldiers abroad, but also making life easier for people in the United States. The Israeli economy is one of the best in the world, having more start up companies than any other nation out there.

2.) The Middle Eastern Countries (so named because I don't really have any 1 name to call them). They wish to take over the land so they can install Islam as the supreme religion in the Middle East. The Middle East has done little to nothing to advance the US Economy, or make any technological gains. On the contrary, they call repeatedly for the destruction of America. The Middle East is VERY anti-jewish and anti-christian. The governments of the middle east often rule with an iron fist using Islam as their tool. Their end goal (and they have admitted this) is to recreate the Islamic Caliphate, one of the largest empires in the world.


So supporting Israel, we get some security in the Middle East, an ally (and a strong one at that), and technological improvements. Withdrawing from Israel and letting them fall, we get the Middle East and their Islamic Caliphate.

And I didn't even get into the religious reasons of why the United States should support Israel...

[Grinder]

If US stop giving money to Israel, Israelis can threaten to stop lending money to US citizens.

I'm sure some Israelis lend money to US citizens, but do you have any hard facts to support the implicit claim that it's more important than not losing the swing vote from the Israel lobby?

[TiagoTiago]

If i was an advanced alien entity, i would teleport all those people from that area and then carpet bomb the region with radiation fallout so it would be inhabitable for at least 10 thousand years, and if after their time out people insist on misbehaving i would repeat the process, but this time  instead of using radiation i would sink the damn land and keep it in the deepest bottom of the ocean until Humanity proves they deserve to get that chunk of rock back.

[grondilu]

I bet this thread is going to be at least 50 pages long, and that it will reach Godwin point several times.

[mitchellhearts2]

If US stop giving money to Israel, Israelis can threaten to stop lending money to US citizens.

I'm sure some Israelis lend money to US citizens, but do you have any hard facts to support the implicit claim that it's more important than not losing the swing vote from the Israel lobby?

I'm from Israel, just before you hear my kindof biased view on things,
IMO, The US really doesn't benefit as much as it did from Israel in past year, bad PR and the movement of organizations such as hamas from doing less terror now and more brainwashing propaganda can be "blamed", ofc, people who live in the US should remember that financial aid isn't given freely, a large percentage of the money can only be spent on US markets, its money the US gives Israel so we could buy weapons from american companies, another huge chunk of the money goes to development, the US has received numerous weapon technologies from Israel in the past 40 years, plus, Israel is a strategical ally to the US.

I do support the founding of a Palestinian state, but to whomever is aware of the details, a return the 1967 is unacceptable and pretty much impossible for Israel, considering some facts like the huge amount of population that lie in clusters beyond the green line, and the fact that the 1967 borders are as stated more than once by Benjamin Netanyahu, indefensible.

Its not absurd to assume a war scenario when all the arab states around Israel attack(6 Day war,Yom Kippur,its not like it hasn't happened before) and its important for Israel to defend itself as a independent country, something that organizations like Hamas refuse to acknowledge.

anyway, if anyone wants to discuss in details, PM me, i don't keep track of topics.

[FooDSt4mP]

I bet this thread is going to be at least 50 pages long, and that it will reach Godwin point several times.

Hitler was a Jew by ancestry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/world-war-2/7961211/Hitler-had-Jewish-and-African-roots-DNA-tests-show.html

[Bazil]

Right now my income is directly dependent on Israel.  If Israel disappeared so would my income.

[LightRider]

Security does not spring from might, but from all people having access to the necessities of life.

[BCEmporium]

Why everyone just insist to see "US as Israel's best and only chump"?!

Israel was actually formed by the Zionists + USA and, more important, actually the "first Israel" was made by this one alone - ending up in failure, with the returning Jews to be executed in 1937... communists, they're so alike with nazis -, USSR.
The turning point for the soviets, and why you see so many "leftists" waging for the Palestinians (who actually kills communists, Islam and Communism can't possibly get along either) is because those retards suffer from the syndrome of "Love at First Blast". Want to gain the commies love? Easy! Just put a bomb somewhere and they will love you... and that's what Palestinians did in the Munich Olympics of 1972.

[eturnerx]

Security does not spring from might, but from all people having access to the necessities of life.

I wish this was true. My country has welfare that provides the necessities of life but crime is still a problem. The definition needs work.

Even applied to the Palestinian situation it's an incorrect oversimplification that implies poverty as the root cause of Palestinian terrorism. If so, then why are suicide-bombers generally male, middle class, better educated and generally with better prospects than the general poor?

[Basiley]

the strongest (Military wise) nation wins and gets to build the next economy - so spending "peanuts" on military aid and much more on defence  is worth while in the end ...  

I don't like this philosophy one bit. If it proves to be reality, I will not be happy.

as long as Arabic countries become/stay/governed in militant/extreme/fundamentalism-centered ways, they will fail and fall.
but as long as they start build own education, healthcare, science, international relation, intelligence, military and etc[and in THAT order] they eventually become WAY more dangerous, even pose many times less direct threat.
that's why all profited from heat/war/conflict/tensions up-scaling -profiting countries[including US], keep infesting/installing extremism regimes around the globe: to stop their development and help own. thats why US use Afgan heroin to cripple EU development[like GB done against China in past days].
old "good" "divide and rule" (c).
and as long as US list of "potential adversaries"[to "immobilize"(c)], include absolutely ANY countries, including Canada and EU, nobody can feel/become safe.

[Bimmerhead]

Security does not spring from might, but from all people having access to the necessities of life.

You're kidding right?

Why does every generation have to learn the same lessons over and over again.

 

[Vince Torres]

Israel is a dick, we shouldn't be supporting them.

So you support terrorists? Have fun getting blown up by a smelly bastard who decided blowing himself up is a good idea. Maybe you should just leave America while you're at it.

[TiagoTiago]

Just cause he doesn't support one party it doesn't mean he supports the other; there are lots more players in that thing than just the Israeli govt and the terrorists reacting to it's actions.

[finnthecelt]

Why everyone just insist to see "US as Israel's best and only chump"?!

Israel was actually formed by the Zionists + USA and, more important, actually the "first Israel" was made by this one alone - ending up in failure, with the returning Jews to be executed in 1937... communists, they're so alike with nazis -, USSR.
The turning point for the soviets, and why you see so many "leftists" waging for the Palestinians (who actually kills communists, Islam and Communism can't possibly get along either) is because those retards suffer from the syndrome of "Love at First Blast". Want to gain the commies love? Easy! Just put a bomb somewhere and they will love you... and that's what Palestinians did in the Munich Olympics of 1972.

Please sir, give credit where credit is due: with the British.

The most important thing for America's security is to learn to live with less oil. Period. That means alternative energies coupled with conservation. Unfortunatley we have the military complex to deal with who are more interested in profit than humanity.

[Bitcoin Swami]

Lavon Affair, The King David Hotel Bombing, USS Liberty.. and so on.  If you don't know of these events, look them up and see who the real terrorists are. That is all.

[TiagoTiago]

I wouldn't expect terrorism to be restricted to a single group

[Bitcoin Swami]

Israel is a dick, we shouldn't be supporting them.

So you support terrorists? Have fun getting blown up by a smelly bastard who decided blowing himself up is a good idea. Maybe you should just leave America while you're at it.

Like I said, Israel has been engaging in terrorism and false flag terrorism since its early days.  The people who were behind the king david hotel bombing went on to led Israel, and Begin even won the nobel peace prize! (not that that means anything these days). lol. 

[billyjoeallen]

Israel is Israel's problem. America is America's problem. I don't wish Israel ill, but neither to I want my money forcibly taken from me to fund Israeli security. I don't want Uncle Sam to borrow money using it's ability to tax my children as security for the loan. The American alliance with Israel is a liability, as are most alliances. Unfortunately, it's not politically feasible to divorce. Any hint of dissension on Israel foreign policy is met with cries of ant-Semitism, which is a political death sentence.

Ron Paul, the Austrian economist and personal friend of such notable Jews as Murray Rothbard, Walter Block, Murray Sabrin, and Peter Schiff was tarred as a racist and marginalized during the 2008 campaign cycle. Neocons (mostly Jewish fake conservatives) pilloried him savagely, using their influence with Big Media to maximum effect. Bill Kristol, Ben Stein, Michael Medved, Paul Wolfowitz- the list goes on and on.  The evidence suggest that they are bloodthirsty militarists with dual loyalties and a tenuous commitment to limited government. Other critics of unqualified support for Israel and qualified support for Zionism watched in horror and fell silent. 

I'm probably going to be branded a racist for even writing this post, but it's Progressivism and Neoconservatism that I object to. On Zionism, I take no position other than it's not my business. It shouldn't be Uncle Sam's business either.

[royalecraig]

Dr Alan Sabrosky, former head of the US army War college.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alan+sabrosky&aq=f

Look into Building 7

[mai77]

Hitler was a Jew by ancestry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/world-war-2/7961211/Hitler-had-Jewish-and-African-roots-DNA-tests-show.html

http://www.picturehost.eu/uploads/f95db2c1eda17ce22a37fd1f695c6121_swas hit.jpg

[mai77]

Is it really in the United State's best interest to have a strong investment in Israel's security? Does the US really sustain Israel's sovereignty in the long-run? Can we afford this?

we cannot. Michael Scheuer is quite accurate on this.

[dadomado]

this is what is being said here is common knowledge in world history back over 500 years and more so rasparava on these issues does not make sense because these are developments that tower above our generation

[bryant.coleman]

I don't support Israel... but I don't support Hamas either. And I will have to state that Israel is less dangerous when compared to Hamas or Hizbollah.

[cryt3k]

the us is a puppet for the zionists terrorist state of isreal.

Let them fend for themselves, why is the biggest lobby in America jews? Why is the whole country controlled by the jews?

No thanks.

[bryant.coleman]

Why is the biggest lobby in America jews? Why is the whole country controlled by the jews?

May be because the rest of the Americans are not intelligent enough.