I don't get it - who is trading at MtGox and how do they withdraw cash?

[coga]

Despite the fact that withdrawals from MtGox are still taking weeks, I still see people actively trading on it, and there is significant amount of them. Since withdrawals are so slow, you essentially "lock" the cash once you transfer it there. So, why would anyone do it? If it is for trading purposes, they might not get the money back, so why do that? If it is to sell BTC, you might not get cash, so why do that?

I essentially came to a conclusion, that there is obviously a way to withdraw the cash from MtGox, but I'm just not aware of it. Perhaps not in USD, but in some other currency? Can someone enlighten me how is it done?

[1714136596]

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[1714136596]

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[FreeMoney]

Not to be a conspiritard, but maybe they are actually telling the truth and only a few percent of withdrawals got delayed?

[finkleshnorts]

I'm glad somebody else is wondering.

[notme]

Not to be a conspiritard, but maybe they are actually telling the truth and only a few percent of withdrawals got delayed?

Lies!  Obviously the guy with half a million USD on there is just retarded.

[rjk]

Don't they support liberty reserve? Has it been delayed at all?

[coga]

Not to be a conspiritard, but maybe they are actually telling the truth and only a few percent of withdrawals got delayed?

I can tell firsthand, since I have been withdrawing on a regular basis, they have been delaying worse and worse. They started delaying sometimes in early May 2012, and delays were around week long:

We see that your first withdrawal has been processed and should now be in your account. Unfortunately, due to huge volumes of Dwolla withdrawals, we are unable to complete your withdrawal at the moment and it would take up to 6 business days for the transfer to be processed.

and:

Thank you for your inquiry. It will be temporary. You can have updates on this situation on the following link: https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21290798-dwolla-delays

Later on delays grew up to 2 weeks, and this is where I had to move to another exchange.

I really did like working with MtGox: they are fast (other than withdrawals), the market depth is very good, mostly problem-free, their API works very well. There was so little headache doing business.

My thought is, I do see a lot of people trading on MtGox. Most of them are probably not stupid, so they got to know some way to cash out. HOW DO THEY DO IT!!!???

[notme]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

[coga]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Again I experienced this firsthand: wires are not solution, they [wires from MtGox that is] are as slow as Dwolla.

Also: Dwolla is not a problem. I trade at Intersango, and their Dwolla transfers take 5-10 minutes.

[notme]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Again I experienced this firsthand: wires are not solution, they [wires from MtGox that is] are as slow as Dwolla.

Also: Dwolla is not a problem. I trade at Intersango, and their Dwolla transfers take 5-10 minutes.

Bad luck?

[finkleshnorts]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Again I experienced this firsthand: wires are not solution, they [wires from MtGox that is] are as slow as Dwolla.

Also: Dwolla is not a problem. I trade at Intersango, and their Dwolla transfers take 5-10 minutes.

Yes, CampBX process dwolla several times a day too. Very fast

[DeathAndTaxes]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Let me guess you actually have never used a wire from MtGox?

My last 4 wires were 18 days, 15 days, 20 days, and 14 (and still not processed) days and those results aren't atypical.  Wires are running 2 to 3 weeks (yes weeks not days) and it has been that way for months now.  One of the wires was made the same day as a Dwolla withdrawal and the wire (which I paid $40 in fees) took 4 days longer than Dwolla.

[coga]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Again I experienced this firsthand: wires are not solution, they [wires from MtGox that is] are as slow as Dwolla.

Also: Dwolla is not a problem. I trade at Intersango, and their Dwolla transfers take 5-10 minutes.

Bad luck?

I'm seriously hoping you are not trolling this thread, since issues with MtGox withdrawals are well known. I'm doing business on a regular basis, and withdrawing money 2-3 times a week, so it is a fact to me. But anyway, what are disagreeing with here - that MtGox withdrawals to Dwolla are slow, or that Intersango withdrawals to Dwolla are fast?

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

These has been explained over and over, but let's do it again.

Dwolla :
We are still waiting for their reply despite having contacting them again and again. Don't compare us to Intersango please! They do not handle the same volume as we do. This will help you to understand https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86224.msg997245#msg997245

International Wire :
1. Yes a small number is affected, but this should be solve normally by the end of July maximum early August. Also please remember that yesterday (Monday 16) was a public holiday in Japan so our bank did not processed anything yesterday.
2. Random checks. I am not sure if you are aware but sending money to the US can be subject to random checks and delays when it reach a certain threshold (10,000 USD) in either one withdrawal or several ones that combined reach this amount. Things are that unlike other companies that can send 100,000 USD or 500,000 USD to the US, most of them send it to one and one account only, while in our case we are sending that much to thousand of people make is it, in the eyes of banks and authorities a little bit suspicious, explaining the random checks. Think of it as when a plan arrive at immigration in a country... There are random checks on your person or your luggage.  

Thanks!

[DeathAndTaxes]

International Wire :
1. Yes a small number is affected, but this should be solve normally by the end of July maximum early August. Also please remember that yesterday (Monday 16) was a public holiday in Japan so our bank did not processed anything yesterday.
2. Random checks. I am not sure if you are aware but sending money to the US can be subject to random checks and delays when it reach a certain threshold (10,000 USD) in either one withdrawal or several ones that combined reach this amount. Things are that unlike other companies that can send 100,000 USD or 500,000 USD to the US, most of them send it to one and one account only, while in our case we are sending that much to thousand of people make is it, in the eyes of banks and authorities a little bit suspicious, explaining the random checks. Think of it as when a plan arrive at immigration in a country... There are random checks on your person or your luggage.  

Please stop lying to our faces.  

1) "A small number".  Strange that not a single person has ever reported getting a wire of any significant value sent in say 7 days.  Anyone?  Anyone reading this thread in the last month have you had a US wire take "only" 7 days?  In this thread and the half dozen other ones on the topic there are dozens and dozens of reports of delayed wires.  AFAIK not a single person saying "hey I got lucky mine only took 4 days".  If small number means 10% one would expect that from the 90% getting ultra fast wires SOMEONE would be reporting it somewhere.

2) Bank Holiday.  That is just insulting.  When wires are taking 2-3 weeks it isn't caused by the occasional bank holiday.  Your wire times are so long that any occasional bank holiday falls into the standard deviation on your wire delivery times.

3) Random checks?  Once again unless the random % is 100% that doesn't exactly explain it.   Every single wire of significant value is delayed.  

4) This has absolutely nothing to do w/ AML because your customer support continually offers to cancel wires and withdraw funds by other faster methods (bitinstant).  If funds were held for actually AML check offering to assist your customer with evading AML reporting is a felony in both US AND Japan.

So please please stop with the lying!

[notme]

Wires.  Dwolla has become a pain in the butt, and it's not MtGox's fault that they changed their TOS.

Again I experienced this firsthand: wires are not solution, they [wires from MtGox that is] are as slow as Dwolla.

Also: Dwolla is not a problem. I trade at Intersango, and their Dwolla transfers take 5-10 minutes.

Bad luck?

I'm seriously hoping you are not trolling this thread, since issues with MtGox withdrawals are well known. I'm doing business on a regular basis, and withdrawing money 2-3 times a week, so it is a fact to me. But anyway, what are disagreeing with here - that MtGox withdrawals to Dwolla are slow, or that Intersango withdrawals to Dwolla are fast?

If you are transacting that much and having such issues, why use MtGox?  When I sell bitcoins, the USD is in my account the next day (or two days if I do it late at night).

As MtGox themselves just replied, Dwolla is a problem for them because of the volume.  As for the bad luck comment, that was about the wires.  If you're doing greater than $10k, then blame the US government.

[DeathAndTaxes]

As for the bad luck comment, that was about the wires.  If you're doing greater than $10k, then blame the US government.

Filing a SAR takes about 2 minutes.  Nobody anywhere on the planet considers 14-21 day delay acceptable.  Blaming it on US govt is just dumb.  Do you honestly think all of the estimated $40 trillion in international wires are delayed 14-21 days.   >$10K in transfers requires REPORTING.  It doesn't require freezing funds.  It doesn't require unexplained week long delays.  IF funds are held by the US govt then how can MtGox customer service offer to cancel the wire and immediately process the withdraw by BitInstant?  Hmm?  That would be a felony under US law.

[coga]

If you are transacting that much and having such issues, why use MtGox?  When I sell bitcoins, the USD is in my account the next day (or two days if I do it late at night).

So, what is it that you are using to sell BTC?

ON SUBJECT: I have not started it as another attempt at MtGox-bashing. There is enough such threads already. I am not trying to get any sort of explanation why withdrawals are so slow. I already read explanations 65535 times.

What I am trying to understand is what the folks do who use MtGox successfully. How is it possible to trade, knowing that you cannot withdraw FRNs for extended periods, and how MtGox survives and thrives despite such issues. My only speculation is that maybe SilkRoad is at play here?

[notme]

As for the bad luck comment, that was about the wires.  If you're doing greater than $10k, then blame the US government.

Filing a SAR takes about 2 minutes.  Nobody anywhere on the planet considers 14-21 day delay acceptable.  Blaming it on US govt is just dumb.  Do you honestly think all of the estimated $40 trillion in international wires are delayed 14-21 days.   >$10K in transfers requires REPORTING.  It doesn't require freezing funds.  It doesn't require unexplained week long delays.  IF funds are held by the US govt then how can MtGox customer service offer to cancel the wire and immediately process the withdraw by BitInstant?  Hmm?  That would be a felony under US law.

The vast majority of that $40 trillion is large payments from one company to another company.  Why don't you start your own company sending hundreds of $10-50k internationally to recipients in the US and see just how easy it is.

The funds aren't held by the government, they are held by the banks waiting for the government to approve the transfer.  Perhaps in the future wires being investigated may be restricted from being cancelled, but these regulations are strapped on top of a legacy system built mostly on a language spoken by a shrinking group of programmers (COBOL).

http://www.savingtoinvest.com/2010/08/making-an-overseas-money-transfer-between-two-countries-costs-rates-and-risks.html

Key Factors to Consider when sending Money internationally

- Government Tracking and Regulations. Since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, governments around the world track money that might be used to fund terrorism. All companies that transfer money overseas must comply with laws to monitor financial transactions, including check ID’s of the sender and recipient. Banks and other financial services companies are required to also report large transactions (greater $10,000 generally) to official authorities. Thus for larger money transfers, expect delays in the transfers.

I'm sorry for your luck.

[notme]

If you are transacting that much and having such issues, why use MtGox?  When I sell bitcoins, the USD is in my account the next day (or two days if I do it late at night).

So, what is it that you are using to sell BTC?

You can get next day USD via Bit-pay, BitFloor, or bitcoin-otc.  There are probably other options.

[coga]

So, what is it that you are using to sell BTC?

You can get next day USD via Bit-pay, BitFloor, or bitcoin-otc.  There are probably other options.

Interesting that Bit-pay has MtGox rate of exchange. Are they too waiting the same amount of time to cash out?

[DeathAndTaxes]

I'm sorry for your luck.

You still aren't getting it.  Luck has nothing to do with it.

Find me a single person who had a US wire submitted in the last month go though in less than 7 days.

[EuSouBitcoin]

Believe it or not, perhaps there are 2 classes of customers at Mt Gox, let's call them "First Class" and "Steerage". If you are in First Class all your USD withdrawals from Mt Gox go through quickly. If you are in Steerage you have to wait weeks. But how do you know which class of customer you are? That's easy. Try a withdrawal and see how long it takes. Belive it . . . or not!

[coga]

Believe it or not, perhaps there are 2 classes of customers at Mt Gox, let's call them "First Class" and "Steerage". If you are in First Class all your USD withdrawals from Mt Gox go through quickly. If you are in Steerage you have to wait weeks. But how do you know which class of customer you are? That's easy. Try a withdrawal and see how long it takes. Belive it . . . or not!

Are you basing this on facts, or it's just your theory? It's a good theory, it explains a lot, but I wanted to know if you have any proof.

[EuSouBitcoin]

I don't have any proof. I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure things out. For example, why would USD withdrawals from Mt Gox via Bank Wire take weeks, they shouldn't? Possible explanations: Mt Gox is having cash flow problems, create a 2-class customer system so the First Class customers can arb Mt Gox against other exchanges but everyone else can't withdraw USD in a timely fashion. The only way you'll know if another exchange works better for you is to try it. Competition between the various BTC/USD exchanges make things better for Bitcoin traders.

[coga]

I don't have any proof. I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure things out. For example, why would USD withdrawals from Mt Gox via Bank Wire take weeks, they shouldn't? Possible explanations: Mt Gox is having cash flow problems, create a 2-class customer system so the First Class customers can arb Mt Gox against other exchanges but everyone else can't withdraw USD in a timely fashion. The only way you'll know if another exchange works better for you is to try it. Competition between the various BTC/USD exchanges make things better for Bitcoin traders.

If that's true, it will be a sad thing, because that would mean that bitcoin not only failed to prevent oligarchy from forming up, but actually facilitated one.

[shtylman]

I don't have any proof. I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure things out. For example, why would USD withdrawals from Mt Gox via Bank Wire take weeks, they shouldn't? Possible explanations: Mt Gox is having cash flow problems, create a 2-class customer system so the First Class customers can arb Mt Gox against other exchanges but everyone else can't withdraw USD in a timely fashion. The only way you'll know if another exchange works better for you is to try it. Competition between the various BTC/USD exchanges make things better for Bitcoin traders.

If that's true, it will be a sad thing, because that would mean that bitcoin not only failed to prevent oligarchy from forming up, but actually facilitated one.

Most people are happy continuing to use services they have been using (even when those services are not working 100% for them) as long as the perceived cost of switching is still higher. This could be a number of things from having to learn new processes, entrusting someone new with their funds, or even not being able to move your funds out in a reasonable time (lock in). Many places still reference MtGox and their price as the current BTC price so that adds another factor of difficulty for users who see prices at other exchanges and then wonder why they are different.

I think it is also important to remember that for many casual users who are just looking to buy bitcoins there is no problem at all. They only move funds in one direction (input usd, buy btc). As long as MtGox keeps this process smooth and delay free, all of these users (not a small number) will have no incentives to look anywhere else or try anything else. The things we hear on the forums are from users wanting to cash out or otherwise trade in the other direction. While this may seem like everyone (based on how much noise is raised over it) many are not affected the same way by the delays.

Honestly, until the sellers start taking a risk again (yes it is a risk to move to a more illiquid market) then they are just continuing to fuel MtGox so clearly they remain "happy" customers willing to continue using the platform.

[coga]

These has been explained over and over, but let's do it again.

Alex, would you mind answering following question:

- Out of your customers, are there any, who receive preferential treatment, as far as cash withdrawals go? Or, all of your customers follow exactly the same process for withdrawals? For example: it came to my attention that bit-pay has USD conversion rate close to your ticker, are they cashing out through you and are they also incurring same 2-3 week waits for transfers?

- I would imagine some folks do require big withdrawals, so paying %% to AurumExchange is probably not an option for them. Is there ability for your customers to withdraw ANY national currency fast (within 1-2 days) without incurring huge commissions, e.g., less than 1% of amount? Are there any of your customers that take advantage of such withdrawal methods and which exactly are those methods?

[BitPay Business Solutions]

- Out of your customers, are there any, who receive preferential treatment, as far as cash withdrawals go? Or, all of your customers follow exactly the same process for withdrawals? For example: it came to my attention that bit-pay has USD conversion rate close to your ticker, are they cashing out through you and are they also incurring same 2-3 week waits for transfers?

I can assure you that we wait 2-3 weeks for wire withdrawals from Mt Gox just like everyone else.  Our only other option is to sell the Gox USD to another party locally, which we do if we can find someone that needs money in Gox fast and doesn't want to wire money to Japan.

[Vandroiy]

I've not been active on Gox recently, but I know how it's been most of the time: The different payment methods get delays sometimes. International Wire mostly worked in days for me, but as Bit-pay just said, it can be weeks. Of course they're not fast, banks delay for various reasons. It's not catastrophic.

Isn't this lag one of the core reasons we're in Bitcoin in the first place? International banking is just outdated in its current form, and it causes these problems. Mtgox is not your standard bank account where you get a speedy cash out, just use the various specialized providers to do that.

[RodeoX]

I don't withdraw dollars, just bitcoin. After all, bitcoins are money. Why do I want dollars to spend?

[disclaimer201]

Funny enough hackers can legally withdraw tens of thousands of dollars AND bitcoins overnight without running into any problems at all. The latest Bitcoinica MtGox hack is what convinced me to never use MtGox ever again. Oh, I almost forgot I already haven't used Gox ever since they reserved themselves the right to play police and freeze customer's coins they decided were stolen before. To x-arbitrary%degrees. In the name of law enforcement and authorities that never requested these measures. In fact, the thefts weren't even ever reported. Turns out now they actually facilitate theft?

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

These has been explained over and over, but let's do it again.

Alex, would you mind answering following question:

- Out of your customers, are there any, who receive preferential treatment, as far as cash withdrawals go? Or, all of your customers follow exactly the same process for withdrawals? For example: it came to my attention that bit-pay has USD conversion rate close to your ticker, are they cashing out through you and are they also incurring same 2-3 week waits for transfers?

- I would imagine some folks do require big withdrawals, so paying %% to AurumExchange is probably not an option for them. Is there ability for your customers to withdraw ANY national currency fast (within 1-2 days) without incurring huge commissions, e.g., less than 1% of amount? Are there any of your customers that take advantage of such withdrawal methods and which exactly are those methods?

- No, as Bit-Pay said, everyone is at the same level, simply because the system is automated. Simply put there are some rules in the system that push withdrawals. If for whatever reasons a withdrawal fail or take too long he will be put on the top of the queue.

- Using SEPA is today the fastest solution for people who want to withdraw a lot of money, however, we are seeing a end to our USD Withdrawal delay, I believe that yesterday a HUGE chunk of withdrawal has been cleared and from this day forward things will be better. There will be, hopefully, some new withdrawal solution available in the near future, our goal is to have them for the End of August, but we can't promise any precise ETA at this point.

As I stated many time (I was using MtGox_Support account) Mt.Gox is the largest exchange and the oldest, while this is a very reassuring fact for our customers, our activity is quickly spotted by Banks and their "compliance/risk" department making our daily working life rather... Interesting and challenging ;-)

The situation is rather tricky and people do not always understand this. We at Mt.Gox are a middleman between two world. On one side we have you our customers that we want to please and help as much as we can and on the other side we have Banks and Authorities that we are also oblige to please if we do not want to get into any troubles. So far and despite what many people on the forum believe, we are doing an "acceptable" work in pleasing everyone.

[Narydu]

I didn't tried it yet but I gues that lots of tge users as my self consider btc as an long term investment so do not intend to withdraw. Thow based on my personal experience selling bitcoins.com to Mark using a big amount of trust from my side... I believe that this delays are absolutely intentional, but even so I think mtgox makes a relative good job not being a bank it self.

[BitMinerN8]

I'm just posting some feedback on the Mt Gox --> Dwolla transfer delays.

Withdraw from Mt Gox on: 7/16 @ ~7AM PST
Delivered to Dwolla: 7/24 @ ~9AM PST
Withdraw from Dwolla: 7/24 @ ~10AM PST
Dwolla update says it should be delivered by 7/27 5PM CST
Dwolla delivered on 7/25 5PM CST

So it looks to be about 10 8 business days. It's depressing to some degree, but I believe it is still the least cost option ($.25) at this point.

If I did a wire direct to my bank from Mt Gox, I would have fees on each end and it would by their (Mt Gox Support) estimates a longer process, around 2 weeks. I don't know if that is 14 business days or what.

Most other USD withdraw options from other money exchanges seem to be at a much higher fees, around 3%-6% plus other fees here and there.

So does anyone know of a faster method of getting USD out of Mt Gox to my bank account for tiny fee of $.25 via Dwolla? Please let me know, thanks.

[OhShei8e]

Why should I withdraw my money from MT Gox in other currencies than bitcoins? In order to tax my money? I live in Germany and must pay 25 percent tax on all speculative gains. And how do you explain bitcoins to the tax office? They think you're a criminal or crazy or both. So you have to spend additional money for a tax adviser. € 600 are tax free in Germany, but everything above is difficult.  I can understand if people just leave their money in MT Gox. There is it in fact tax-free as long as you do not change it in a normal currency. Otherwise your bank will grass on you, thats the law in Germany. So you have to consider what you doing. Who knows what you can buy in the future for bitcoins? You can already pay in some pubs with it. And last but not least you can swap bitcoins to dollar. On the other hand, the euro will go to the dogs pretty soon.  

Just my two cents.