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Question: Bitcoin fork proposal by respected Bitcoin lead dev Gavin Andresen, to increase the block size from 1MB to 20MB.
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Author Topic: Bitcoin 20MB Fork  (Read 154754 times)
homo homini lupus
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February 06, 2015, 05:36:10 PM
Last edit: February 06, 2015, 06:02:37 PM by homo homini lupus
 #641

If I ever go insane and suggest increasing the 21 million coin limit, please put me on your ignore list.

I will remind everybody again of Satoshi's second public post where he talked about scalability:

Quote
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes. At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with that one node.

The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.
If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then, sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal.

Satoshi Nakamoto

If you didn't do your homework and thought that Bitcoin == 1MB blocks forever, well, that's your fault.

I signed up for a Bitcoin that would scale.


Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?

I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.

Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.
The Bitcoin network protocol was designed to be extremely flexible. It can be used to create timed transactions, escrow transactions, multi-signature transactions, etc. The current features of the client only hint at what will be possible in the future.
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February 06, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
 #642

You are running in circles. There won't be consensus with this community of greedy and selfish basdards everywhere...
You whole post has no argument besides the bloatchain. Am I wrong? Do you have any other argument or you just like the shit that you throw?
Yes you are wrong. My main argument was you bahave like an ape an that's why this is going nowhere. But of course that must have escaped your attention.

Grats on earning your weetard title!

Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?
I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.
Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

The quote is real you fucktard: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html

I'm done replying to you. If anyone else wants a discussion about this I will gladly join the discussion, but this is not the place for retardness as shown above.

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February 06, 2015, 06:11:37 PM
 #643

If I ever go insane and suggest increasing the 21 million coin limit, please put me on your ignore list.

I will remind everybody again of Satoshi's second public post where he talked about scalability:

Quote
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes. At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with that one node.

The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.
If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then, sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal.

Satoshi Nakamoto

If you didn't do your homework and thought that Bitcoin == 1MB blocks forever, well, that's your fault.

I signed up for a Bitcoin that would scale.


Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?

I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.

Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

Welcome to my ignore, retard.
homo homini lupus
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February 06, 2015, 06:37:01 PM
 #644



Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?
I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.
Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

The quote is real you fucktard: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.
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February 06, 2015, 06:50:46 PM
 #645



Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?
I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.
Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

The quote is real you fucktard: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.

Stop trying to weasel out of your folly and apologise to Gavin for suggesting he was lying.

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February 06, 2015, 06:59:22 PM
 #646



Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?
I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.
Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

The quote is real you fucktard: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.

Stop trying to weasel out of your folly and apologise to Gavin for suggesting he was lying.

Nowhere did i suggest he was lying. All i suggested was: he's not even able to quote satoshi in an academic manner here or anywhere else.

He can't even quote!

If he was able to quote we could 'maybe' take him serious and have a discussion on the content of the "quote".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation
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February 06, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
 #647



Mr. Andresen i'm unable to find this original source of satoshi. You like to quote him without providing a link to the source, don't you?
I can pull satoshi quotes out of my ass too. If you can't link to the original post it's not a legit quote. Please provide a link to the original source you try to quote ASAP.
Did you not attend university? Did you not learn how to quote? Quotes without unambiguous reference to the original text are no quotes at all.

The quote is real you fucktard: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.

Yeah sure, if something is not written down it's not true... typical academic mentality. What if Satoshi just told him? what if it was in an email on an IM that is private and Gavin does not want to publicize it.

I remember my brothers GF. We had a little discussion going on and my argument was based on the law of conservation of energy. She honestly said "well, and how can that be true if you cannot name a book or any academic publication where this has been written down?".
I said:"Look, if you rub your hands together quickly, the energy of you moving your hands will result in them getting warmer". I had a lot of other everyday examples but she always said "If you cannot show me where it's written, you cannot use that as an argument".

Well, clearly she'll never invent anything or be part of any scientific finding or new theories, but thats another story.

The point is, we're neither in a university or an academic environment, nor do we need to know everything with 100% certainty in order to not deny it's existence.

Gavin told us what satoshi said. He chose to do it the say he did. It is up to him to add proof in any way, shape or form to his claims just as it is up to everyone else to believe him or not. This quote can easily be found via google, which makes the source available to everyone.

And last but not least:
Everyone understood it was a satoshi quote and people could find the source by themselves with ease. Therefore, his communication was successful and there is no need to add anything!
homo homini lupus
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February 06, 2015, 07:46:18 PM
 #648

It is up to him to add proof in any way, shape or form to his claims

No, it is not 'up to him' if he wants to actually call it a 'quote' and be a 'scientist'.

He even inserted a very cute smiley into his "quote" which Satoshi did not make.

I'm sorry, i can't take this serious. I hope he can correct his comment, remove the smiley and insert the link to the source. Before that, we can't elaborate on it, i'm sorry.
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February 06, 2015, 07:49:37 PM
 #649

He even inserted a very cute smiley into his "quote" which Satoshi did not make.

That's a bug in the forum. When you place an 8 next to a closing parenthesis, then you get a smiley with glasses. See: Cool

So, he quoted him verbatim, but it's the forum's fault that a smiley appears, not Gavin's.

You need to get mad at the right people.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 06, 2015, 07:50:31 PM
 #650

He even inserted a very cute smiley into his "quote" which Satoshi did not make.

That's a bug in the forum. When you place an 8 next to a closing parenthesis, then you get a smiley with glasses. See: Cool

So, he quoted him verbatim, but it's the forum's fault that a smiley appears, not Gavin's.

You need to get mad at the right people.

No, he simply spammed something with no intend for discussion

You people all behave like you were his mother.

Can he speak for himself or does he need his parents to talk for him?

Once his comment is corrected to actually represent a real quote of Satoshi i'd have some points of discussion. Not before that.
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February 06, 2015, 07:54:32 PM
 #651

You need to get mad at the right people.

+1

Why is homo homini lupus having a dig at Gavin anyway?Surely he should be questioning his anti-fork leader MP about that PR train crash of an article he posted earlier.


homo homini lupus
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February 06, 2015, 07:56:56 PM
 #652

You need to get mad at the right people.

+1

Why is homo homini lupus having a dig at Gavin anyway?Surely he should be questioning his anti-fork leader MP about that PR train crash of an article he posted earlier.



I have nothing to do with MP
I'm independant and you little sheep won't tell me what to do, think or how to behave.
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February 06, 2015, 07:57:36 PM
 #653

Once his comment is corrected to actually represent a real quote of Satoshi i'd have some points of discussion. Not before that.

If you won't dicuss any further until the quote is fixed, then why do you keep posting?

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 06, 2015, 07:58:54 PM
 #654

Once his comment is corrected to actually represent a real quote of Satoshi i'd have some points of discussion. Not before that.

If you won't dicuss any further until the quote is fixed, then why do you keep posting?

Same question could i ask you since you in particular produce nothing but spamposts for days now.
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February 06, 2015, 08:01:00 PM
 #655

Once his comment is corrected to actually represent a real quote of Satoshi i'd have some points of discussion. Not before that.

If you won't dicuss any further until the quote is fixed, then why do you keep posting?

same question could i ask you since you in particular produce nothing than spamposts for days now.

I've never stated that I will stop posting. Consistency is important.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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February 06, 2015, 08:01:36 PM
 #656

Once his comment is corrected to actually represent a real quote of Satoshi i'd have some points of discussion. Not before that.

If you won't dicuss any further until the quote is fixed, then why do you keep posting?

same question could i ask you since you in particular produce nothing than spamposts for days now.

I've never stated that I will stop posting. Consistency is important.

Where did i state i would not continue to post?
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February 06, 2015, 08:10:44 PM
 #657

I dont know if someone actually made a similar poll since search engine is down so here we go..

Bitcoin fork proposal by respected Bitcoin lead dev Gavin Andresen, to increase the block size from 1MB to 20MB.

Interesting read about it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919629.0 (locked Cry )

Feel free to discuss it further.



Not sure how I would vote in this poll at the moment, because it's unclear to me how it would impact microtransactions and microgiving. See, for example, this: https://abisprotocol.github.io/ABIS/ It's a concept I am developing which would rely upon microtransactions that would run peer to peer from wallets, so that people can specify tiny amounts to be aggregated and sent to persons or organizations of their choice to be sent at certain thresholds (when transactions are at or above a certain size), but with all of this controlled completely by the user and from the user's wallet settings, in a way that redefines the transaction and emphasizes giving rather than consumption as what we do when we transact (ABIS is "Ants, Bees, Information, Systems" ~ there is the idea embedded within very similar to the natural behavior of bees or ants).  Some discussions have led to the possibility of a OpenBazaar plugin for ABIS down the road, for example.

I guess my concern about Gavin's approach is that it may make it harder for people who are looking to engage in microtransactions or microgiving (something in bitcoin which seems to actually be experiencing a surge - and with good reason).  I wouldn't want this kind of hard fork development in bitcoin to drive people away due to fee issues.  I remember the sudden, almost overnight decision that was made by developers some long while ago related to dust, which was intended to counter ddos problems, but because of the way it was done, put businesses and users who were accustomed to primarily engaging in micro- or tiny transactions, immediately in a seriously problematic position.  (In case you are wondering what I am talking about, look up pullreq #2577 ~ Treat dust outputs as non-standard, un-hardcode TX_FEE constants #2577 (sort of a toxic pull request) -   and a later issue I created,  Option to Contribute - Indicate in Bitcoin Core [Incentivizing Giving, Adding Smart Property Element] #4079 - in which I had hoped to use "tiny transactions" to help bitcoin developers receive small amounts from the larger bitcoin community to support their work.)

 The way users were treated then led me to seriously re-evaluate what in the world I was doing the bitcoin space and how I could help people create a better future by redefining transactions completely, thus this idea which you see at https://abisprotocol.github.io/ABIS/

I think that ideas such as the Kimoto Gravity Well, if they would help people reduce the amount of difficulty it would take to participate in mining, for example, and then use their ordinary laptops and towers to participate in such endeavors, could be useful in bitcoin.  I'm concerned about the impact of the hard fork as proposed on raising transaction fees and excluding or marginalizing many of the already and poor and marginalized people in the world, who perhaps now are in a position (through cell phone use) to begin to realize some of the benefits of bitcoin use and thus not have to bear the burden of traditional financial institution use for international transfers or "remesas familiares" for example when those in the States are sending money to those in Central or South America (just as one example).  I am seriously concerned about the effect Gavin's proposal may have on many marginalized people and I don't think he has analyzed the social and economic effects of it on worldwide populations.  His proposal has been more of a overview of what may happen from a coder's perspective, without the necessary full social and economic analysis I think is at this point necessary given the growth and size of the network. I read the links to Gavin's posts on his idea, but just not enough analysis there.  Maybe a fuller social and economic analysis (by someone other than him - he could specify someone who would analyze his ideas so that there would be someone other than him doing this) would reveal that changes to the proposal would be helpful, or would be more inclusive of the poor or of those who are trying to envision or engage in microtransaction (economies at which necessarily the value of goods and services is at very low levels and the fees are at low levels, or amounts are being given routinely either as part of certain transactions or as part of any transaction and the tiny amounts being given are individually less than the fee amount, but cumulatively greater than a fee amount, and can be bundled and sent).  Of course, the more that developers place pressure on poor and marginalized by structuring bitcoin so that the fee is going to be more expensive for users who want to use bitcoin for simple, small (tiny) and / or compassionate purposes, the less that people will want to use bitcoin except for purposes related to venture capital, and the more it will be tied to the banks, thus divorcing it from one of its original purposes:  to liberate people from harmful institutions.

So I can't vote on the poll yet, but if I were to vote today I'd have to vote no. I will hold off voting on this poll though pending further analysis which I really think is necessary.  I don't think there's any information though that is sufficient to make a determination to support a hard fork at this time for the reasons that I elaborated on in the prior paragraph.  I suspect however that Gavin's proposal is not going to be supported or many changes would have to be made, but more than that:  given the spread of bitcoin, major developer proposals now need at least social and economic analyses to be done by persons (econ. analysts) that are not the developers.  The developers are good coders, but they are inclined towards their own proposals.  They are not impartial.

Note / Disclosure:

I am running for Individual Director seat for the Bitcoin Foundation.  
CryptoCoinsNews:  https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/colin-gallagher-bitcoin-foundation-elections/


ABISprotocol (Github/Gist)
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February 06, 2015, 08:53:07 PM
 #658


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.

Hey fucktard his post isn't a post in an academic system. The post is on a forum and he can put it any way he likes it, not the way you want it. I hope that MP give you good cock to worth all the shit that you are eating.

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February 06, 2015, 08:54:19 PM
 #659





couldn't resist (the quote with the smiley, and without source is really hilarious)

King of the real Bitcoin Foundation https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934517.0
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February 06, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
 #660


Are you Gavin?

Mr. Andresen can't even quote Satoshi in an academic manner. How on earth can anyone take him serious?

I'm expecting Mr. Andresen to correct his post and include the reference link before we'll be able to continue with the discussion on the actual topic/quote.

Hey fucktard his post isn't a post in an academic system. The post is on a forum and he can put it any way he likes it, not the way you want it. I hope that MP give you good cock to worth all the shit that you are eating.

Hello Mrs. Andresen, i'm sorry, your son indicated no seriousness or willingness for a discussion on his point raised. His post made to me the impression of no serious post. I am deeply sorry for pointing it out and for refusing to discuss its content based on the sloppy impression it makes.

Welcome to my ignore list Mrs. Andresen
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