Bitcoin 20MB Fork

[R2D221]

I'm not limiting your free use of Bitcoin network, miners are.

Where are these miners that are limiting me? Because I don't see them.

Bitcoin is not a credit card, it can't be. and all the efforts don't go for nothing.

We agree on this. Credit cards are awful.

Even if I can only make a transaction a month (pretty sure I can live with less) bitcoins would be valuable for me, because they aren't tokens setup by governments.

That's your opinion. It's useless to me to have money that I can't move during the whole month.

[1714040997]

1714040997

[1714040997]

1714040997

[1714040997]

1714040997

[1714040997]

1714040997

[1714040997]

1714040997

[1714040997]

1714040997

[traincarswreck]

We probably shouldn't dawdle so perhaps we will continue with our "revelations":


It seems that oil has in fact at least for the time being, uncoupled from gold, and that gold and the usd have begun to move in tandem. This can only be seen as significant if we relate both Szabo's writings and Nash's https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/bitcoin-gold-oil-usd-inflation-expection-and-price/

Also I should make reference to this:

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.

I think you have made a statement here that is far too reaching and ultimately based on our understanding (ie bohmian view changes this: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html#jCp) of quantum and the cosmos.  It seems the very argument is whether we can create a cooperative entity that continues to gain mass efficiency as it evolves (why should this process then not sustain).  In that sense an economy based on endless growth may be the exact natural "thing" we face.

I suspect then none of us are truly attempting to stand on the top of the great pyramid from the same perspective, and so we might be thrown upon it together:


Does each of us agree, we would not be in this position today, had these pyramids not have stood the test of time?  How important was accuracy? Does accuracy create the pyramids, or did the pyramids spawn the accuracy?  I think some of us feel the pyramids were not the bedrock of our societay today, some of us feel they played no part, and some seem to feel that such a concensusized mechanism for measurement was both insignificant and possibly arose after the pyramid was erected.

[solex]

(...)
And that leaves people mining protocol version A With <5% of the hashing power AND <1MB blocks.  Protocol version A will be unable to handle any transaction load at all.

Very interesting, thank you.

So basically if MP wants "bitcoin legacy" to survive, he has only two options left :
- to invest in mining capacity right now so as to keep at least 10% of the network hashrate, or
- to try to convince miners that Gavincoin is a bad idea, and hope that they will make the correct choice...

Knowing that "hope" is not exactly in the man's personality, he will have to start mining now (something that he always has refused to do).
 

So he will need 10x the hashing power of this farm vvv, and mpcoin blocks will still take 1.5 hours to mine, the rewards of which won't be spendable for a week, and no exchange will accept them, including MPEx!
MPEx will have to announce that it will use the >1MB mainchain, because otherwise it will have loads of its customers exiting while the number of version-4 blocks climbs to the supermajority threshold.

[R2D221]

Nice, quoting my signature, which comes from the album The 2nd Law by Muse.

[traincarswreck]

Nice, quoting my signature, which comes from the album The 2nd Law by Muse.

It should say, or could say, a sustainable economy must necessarily be stable, stability must necessarily be secure. And these things might not necessarily have a finite-ness to them, but we might agree that stability must be achieved as a movement in time.  Meaning there is no static solution. (which is how I was relevated to this dialogue/discussion https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/securing-decentralization-through-nash-equilibria/)

We understand that shells (and/or even more archaically stone tools) may arise as the foundation of a civilizations economy. but that certain metelogical expansions or discoveries may have overtaken the use of these things. Or for example there maybe have been a new discovery of more shells or metals as two civilizations collide or clash (which don't share the same standard or in others might have plenty of shells).  Such an instantaneous "rocking" of the economic standard would not be favorable for the evolution of man. But would necessarily occur over and over again until a certain point.

Having a pyramid scheme akin to the monetary supply of bitcoin (such as the decreasing blocks on the steps of a pyramid), would certainly be a great bedrock up until either the monetary standard comes to an end or a new metal standard completely takes over  (ie gold becomes mined/discovered at the ideal rate, in tandem with no new collisions of continents of civilizations).  Each successive bedrock technology becomes a kind of incentive for the arisal of the next. But you need a certain momentum in order to economically over come certain boundaries.  

The nations that, according to the best authenticated history, appear to have been first civilized, were those that dwelt round the coast of the Mediterranean sea. That sea, by far the greatest inlet that is known in the world, having no tides, nor consequently any waves, except such as are caused by the wind only, was, by the smoothness of its surface, as well as by the multitude of its islands, and the proximity of its neighbouring shores, extremely favourable to the infant navigation of the world; when, from their ignorance of the compass, men were afraid to quit the view of the coast, and from the imperfection of the art of ship-building, to abandon themselves to the boisterous waves of the ocean. To pass beyond the pillars of Hercules, that is, to sail out of the straits of Gibraltar, was, in the ancient world, long considered as a most wonderful and dangerous exploit of navigation. It was late before even the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, the most skilful navigators and ship-builders of those old times, attempted it; and they were, for a long time, the only nations that did attempt it.

This is not different than the realization that if the great pyramids did not exist, we would today be lost to our true origins (I know some here disagree and should speak up).  So then of course among other things, they attract the "sea peoples' which is a natural evolution pointed out by Smith (https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/02/12/twon-in-relation-to-egypt-and-the-block-chain-excerpts/) in relation to what arises a foreign commerced based nation (that sea peoples necessarily are but alas the Egyptians necessarily were not).

The course of human prosperity, indeed, seems scarce ever to have been of so long continuance as to unable any great country to acquire capital sufficient for all those three purposes; unless, perhaps, we give credit to the wonderful accounts of the wealth and cultivation of China, of those of ancient Egypt, and of the ancient state of Indostan. Even those three countries, the wealthiest, according to all accounts, that ever were in the world, are chiefly renowned for their superiority in agriculture and manufactures. They do not appear to have been eminent for foreign trade. The ancient Egyptians had a superstitious antipathy to the sea; a superstition nearly of the same kind prevails among the Indians; and the Chinese have never excelled in foreign commerce. The greater part of the surplus produce of all those three countries seems to have been always exported by foreigners, who gave in exchange for it something else, for which they found a demand there, frequently gold and silver.

This simply then means, that we needed to discover the entire planet, before we could stop wiping each others bedrocks out.  And so rocks evolve to structures, and this might arise shells as highly transactable money, and then pyramids evolve, with certain "tally" practices, to be wiped out by metals and coins, and then soon to arise a new gold standard upon which "cash" and keynesian standards are birthed from. And then bitcoin as a new currency might move to be a gold standard to which new "currencies" technologies might arise...The key change sirs and madame's....is simply that will not be conquering any new foreign lands of civilizations on this planet (and of course a realization our gold reserves are not at all finite).

Or in other words, the birth of "space commerce" must necessarily be secured with a stable global civilization (excerpts from Ideal Money):

[R2D221]

How come my one liners get an essay as a response?

[traincarswreck]

(one more repost of the pic just for fun)
(Launch the interactive, choose “khufu” and then “view from top. Stand on the pyramids: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/explore-ancient-egypt.html)

How come my one liners get an essay as a response?

Do you see what they did?  We are both standing on top of the great pyramid, from our separate "rooms", but together.  THEY did this!  And we wonder why and how!?  Never before were we able to stand together on the vast/enormous immensity and discuss the ancient age old question: what should be....block size?

[inBitweTrust]

Satoshi On Scaling - Gavin Andresen (DevCore 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3INbCnEfZq4

In-Depth Q&A Session with Gavin Andresen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpZAfAJsI0I

[justusranvier]

Keeping a record of everything hapening in the world in every nodes is not needed. (even stupid) You don't need this security level for day to day tokens, just for the base money you will use to convert from time to time to buy tokens

Shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the purpose of a ledger is.

Nobody cares that a billion people bought coffee today.

Everybody cares that those billion purchases were not allowed to inflate the money supply.

That's what's being recorded in the blockchain - the proof that every bitcoin which was spent actually existed.

[traincarswreck]

We might continue

An essential feature of the dialogue group is that it is able to reveal assumptions. These assumptions are actually making us ill. And in that sense, it is therapy to reveal them. The content here, then, is more in that direction and eventually moving toward being free of those assumptions, and exploring something new beyond the assumptions. The point is not to establish a fixed dialogue group forever, but rather one that lasts long enough to make a change. If you keep holding it for too long, it may become caught up in habits again. But you have to keep it up for awhile, or else it won’t work.

So isn't the really question here, in another form, whether or not Satoshi is an Alchemist?  Or whether or not they have turned something that is not gold into gold? And that this is not so true unless there is some limited block size that means bitcoin wouldn't be the highly transactable good some expect it to be. Interesting this "religion" or "myth" about what we call "alchemy" that certain peoples might be so knowledgeable they could do such an impossible task.  Much like the solution to the byzantine generals problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

“The word alchemy was borrowed from Old French alquemie, alkimie, taken from Medieval Latin alchymia, and which is in turn borrowed from Arabic al-kīmiyā’ (الكيمياء) ‘philosopher’s stone’. The Arabic word is borrowed from Late Greek chēmeía (χημεία), chēmía (χημία)[25] ‘black magic’ with the agglutination of the Arabic definite article al- (الـ).[26] This ancient Greek word was derived from[27] the early Greek name for Egypt, Chēmia (Xημία), based on the Egyptian name for Egypt, kēme (hieroglyphic khmi, lit. ‘black earth’, as opposed to red desert sand).[26]”

“Technology – The dawn of Western alchemy is sometimes associated with that of metallurgy, extending back to 3500 BCE.[33] Many writings were lost when the emperor Diocletian ordered the burning of alchemical books[34] after suppressing a revolt in Alexandria (292 CE). Few original Egyptian documents on alchemy have survived, most notable among them the Stockholm papyrus and the Leyden papyrus X. Dating from 300 to 500 CE, they contained recipes for dyeing and making artificial gemstones, cleaning and fabricating pearls, and manufacturing of imitation gold and silver.[35] These writings lack the mystical, philosophical elements of alchemy, but do contain the works of Bolus of Mendes (or Pseudo-Democritus) which aligned these recipes with theoretical knowledge of astrology and the Classical elements.[36] Between the time of Bolus and Zosimos, the change took place that transformed this metallurgy into a Hermetic art.[37]”

And this is interesting I think in relation to what is called the philosophers stone, "sometimes believed to be an elixir of life", in relation to what the ramifications might be of a single global currency standard (if the community came to a consensus that bitcoin should be a "gold").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone

“The philosophers’ stone or stone of the philosophers (Latin: lapis philosophorum) is a legendary alchemical substance said to be capable of turning base metals such as lead into gold (chrysopoeia, from the Greek χρυσός khrusos, “gold,” and πoιεῖν poiēin, “to make”) or silver. It was also sometimes believed to be an elixir of life, useful for rejuvenation and possibly for achieving immortality; for many centuries, it was the most sought-after goal in alchemy. The philosophers’ stone was the central symbol of the mystical terminology of alchemy, symbolizing perfection at its finest, enlightenment, and heavenly bliss. Efforts to discover the philosophers’ stone were known as the Magnum Opus (“Great Work”).[1]”

“Mention of the philosophers’ stone in writing can be found as far back as Cheirokmeta by Zosimos of Panopolis (c. 300 AD).[2] Alchemical writers assign a longer history. Elias Ashmole and the anonymous author of Gloria Mundi (1620) claim that its history goes back to Adam who acquired the knowledge of the stone directly from God. This knowledge was said to be passed down through biblical patriarchs, giving them their longevity. The legend of the stone was also compared to the biblical history of the Temple of Solomon and the rejected cornerstone described in Psalm 118.[3]”

Many religions seem to have this lore:

The equivalent of the philosophers’ stone in Buddhism and Hinduism is the Cintamani.[13]

I do have an interesting insight into the squaring of the circle as well, but I should save it for a later post, and reference it here:

“”Squaring the circle”: an alchemical symbol (17th century) of the creation of the philosopher’s stone”

Gold can actually be synthesized (interesting word "syn-thesis), apparently it is costly (for now):

“As a heavy element, the cosmogenic origin of gold must be in extremely energetic nuclear reactions, which occur only in high-mass stars. It has been proposed that most of heavy elements like gold are produced in neutron star collisions.[11] Thus, all gold on Earth was accreted on Earth during the formation of the Earth and the solar system, and no new gold is being created.

Very small amounts of gold can be created artificially with particle accelerators or nuclear reactors, see Gold in synthesis. However, these methods produce radioactive isotopes and are extremely costly, requiring rare precursor isotopes and expensive product separation and purification. Thus, synthesis of gold by nuclear reaction does not appear commercially viable.”

Particle accelerators have sparked another insight, in relation to our mastery of circles/squares (specifically Pi) and in relation to building the pyramids:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone

Synthesis from other elements

Gold was synthesized from mercury by neutron bombardment in 1941, but the isotopes of gold produced were all radioactive.[98] In 1924, a Japanese physicist, Hantaro Nagaoka, accomplished the same feat.[99]
Gold can currently be manufactured in a nuclear reactor by irradiation either of platinum or mercury. Only the mercury isotope 196Hg, which occurs with a frequency of 0.15% in natural mercury, can be converted to gold by neutron capture, and following electron capture-decay into 197Au with slow neutrons. Other mercury isotopes are converted when irradiated with slow neutrons into one another, or formed mercury isotopes which beta decay into thallium.

Using fast neutrons, the mercury isotope 198Hg, which composes 9.97% of natural mercury, can be converted by splitting off a neutron and becoming 197Hg, which then disintegrates to stable gold. This reaction, however, possesses a smaller activation cross-section and is feasible only with un-moderated reactors. It is also possible to eject several neutrons with very high energy into the other mercury isotopes in order to form 197Hg. However such high-energy neutrons can be produced only by particle accelerators.[clarification needed]

[traincarswreck]

This must be posted and pondered in relation to what is going on with the Euro/Greek crisis/decision. Do we see a very interrelated event/problem that much of the world faces?  Do we find this timing a coincidence? We have outlined this extensively in relation to ALL the currencies in the world especially the major and significant ones.  Its clear in times of trouble people and markets will move to what they know best (USD/Gold), but it is not true to suggest that these will always be the smartest, safest, or truest stores of money.  And all over the world markets and governments take refuge in governments debts/bonds.  Do we not see what is set up?

Certain individuals would prefer bitcoin to be this or that.  But we should be able to see with great clarity, the ENTIRE world, and all the currencies and market problems we face today, needs a single global bedrock standard, to which each group can develop some form of cooperative strategy to base their decisions from.

The European Debt Crisis Visualized : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8&feature=youtu.be

Without this, nobody can predict anything or have any certainty, we do not yet even realize the effects this sort of thing has on the individual or collective consciousness.

[davout]

Keeping a record of everything hapening in the world in every nodes is not needed. (even stupid) You don't need this security level for day to day tokens, just for the base money you will use to convert from time to time to buy tokens

Shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the purpose of a ledger is.

Nobody cares that a billion people bought coffee today.

Everybody cares that those billion purchases were not allowed to inflate the money supply.

So? Everything on the same ledger? Herp.

[cbeast]

Keeping a record of everything hapening in the world in every nodes is not needed. (even stupid) You don't need this security level for day to day tokens, just for the base money you will use to convert from time to time to buy tokens

Shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the purpose of a ledger is.

Nobody cares that a billion people bought coffee today.

Everybody cares that those billion purchases were not allowed to inflate the money supply.

So? Everything on the same ledger? Herp.

Seriously. Why do people think that anyone wants Bitcoin to be the only money in existence? Centralized systems work fine for local currency, whether it's coins and notes or debit cards from a local payment processor. Those are the only "sidechains" needed. Material scientists are developing technologies to make non-counterfeitable local currencies. Off-blockchain services can consolidate Bitcoin transactions. Bitcoin only needs to be used where it is beneficial.

[Pecunia non olet]

Just been briefly reading over the last page. Did everyone loose their minds now?

[traincarswreck]

In light of emerging dialog and recent spikes in price we might cause, I should be allowed one final large deviation to a side street before we tie this all together.  We need then to relevate the works of Shinichi Mochizuki and especially in relation to the alchemist or philosopher stones "symbol" or "symbolic meaning" of "squaring the circle".

It is in fact quite the impossible feat and therefore dubbed the mark of a madman to suggest one could in fact square a circle (Nash to the NSA):


It has been a significant problem over the history of man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

Methods to approximate the area of a given circle with a square were known already to Babylonian mathematicians. The Egyptian Rhind papyrus of 1800BC gives the area of a circle as (64/81) d 2, where d is the diameter of the circle, and pi approximated to 256/81, a number that appears in the older Moscow Mathematical Papyrus and used for volume approximations (i.e. hekat). Indian mathematicians also found an approximate method, though less accurate, documented in the Sulba Sutras.[2] Archimedes showed that the value of pi lay between 3 + 1/7 (approximately 3.1429) and 3 + 10/71 (approximately 3.1408). See Numerical approximations of π for more on the history.

Its seems likely that our ability to more accurately calculate Pi, is very related to the macro scale evolution of our civilization in relation to the cosmos (ie our understanding of circles and how they relate to squares is crucial for the next "age"). Or in other words and in relation to the pyramids, our knowledge of the relationship of Pi and circles to squares (or that which we could measure or define) was also that which allowed such a great structure to arise and carry the back bone of our civilization.



This in relation to Mochizuki's work is important (although on the surface seemingly unrelated):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-universal_Teichm%C3%BCller_theory

In mathematics, inter-universal Teichmüller theory is an arithmetic version of Teichmüller theory for number fields with an elliptic curve, introduced by Shinichi Mochizuki (2012a, 2012b, 2012c, 2012d) as an extension of his work on p-adic Teichmüller theory.[1][2][3][4][5] The main theorem of inter-universal Teichmüller theory gives an explicit description of the arithmetic Teichmüller deformations of a number field with an elliptic curve. The paper (Mochizuki 2012d) claims to use the main theorem to give a proof of several outstanding conjectures in diophantine geometry, including the abc conjecture, the Szpiro conjecture, and part of the Vojta's conjecture for the case of hyperbolic curves.[6] The proofs are unusually difficult to understand, and as of 2014 there is no consensus on whether or not they are correct.

It's interesting (as if out of a movie), that all of these geniuses (if we include gavin the architect) seem to have converged somehow/sometime, at Princeton uni (einstin, von nueman, bohm, nash, gavin, mochizuki).

When he was five years old, Shinichi Mochizuki and his family left Japan to live in New York City. Mochizuki attended Phillips Exeter Academy and graduated in 1985.[7] He entered Princeton University as an undergraduate at age 16 and graduated salutatorian in 1988.[7]

And in specific regards to Shinichi's works (and in his own words) we do in fact have "relevance":

Even under circumstances where one is only linked by a “narrow pipe” (i.e., such as an astronaut on a space vessel or miners work-ing in an underground mine), it is possible to reconstruct and grasp the situ-ation on the “other side” by making wise use of the limited information available.

The reason this is all important, and I believe should be relevated, is not only TN's belief that Shinichi is in fact Satoshi, but also that seemingly inter-universal geometry, should allow us to Square the Circle, or in other words, I suspect Mochizuki is a "circle-squarer", and this should then have relevance in the quantum physics field. (And more importantly but more difficult to relate, is that Mochizuki among other things seems to be laying down the formalization of the "field of consciousness" mathematically.

Shinichi:

That is to say,“inter-universal geometry” allows one to relate the “geometries” that occur in distinct universes.

Here, again we recall from the discussion of Remark 3.6.2, (i), (ii), that it is only by working with such correspondences that may be described by means of set-theoretic formulas that one may obtain descriptions that allow one to calculate the operations performed in one universe from the point of view of an alien universe

[RoadStress]

Ok at this point traincarswreck is just mumbling stuff to himself either he is trying to bury the relevant stuff behind his long and not on subject posts.  Does anyone else agrees with me?

[traincarswreck]

No I had to get out, a couple large points, everyone agrees with you, but what we need to understand, is I am the most well read on these related subjects, and their connections are incredibly difficult to present. However, I would rather appreciate more dialog and discussion from others....

[RoadStress]

So? Everything on the same ledger? Herp.

I know that I said a few pages ago that everyone should be able to use the blockchain even coffee guys, but I am aware that even a 20MB block limit or even higher will not be enough for a global usage of the bitcoin network. But that still means that we need to raise the block limit. Do we agree on that?

[traincarswreck]

anonymint is that you? coincube maybe?

No I should think not, but I should be allowed to relevate side tangents, especially since no one can match me on these interrelating subjects, and nor their interelation.

In the beginning, people won’t trust each other. But I think that if they see the importance of the dialogue, they will work with it. A basic notion for a dialogue would be for people to sit in a circle. Such a geometric arrangement doesn’t favour anybody; it allows for direct communication.

So tying this all together (getting to the points), and in relation to for example newton:

...the pound was the original currency of "the gold standard", with its value pegged to gold in 1717 by Isaac Newton who was then Master of the mint.

Seemingly these masters of the broad view, have some form of a break through that allows them to progress in many fields, more relevantly here we see newton had developed calculus (certainly mastering the measuring of a circle), generalized binomials, and eventually began to  "quantize gravity".  Why the relation of all these things, and especially to alchemy and pegging the pound to gold? Why does one fear publishing calculus?

Beyond his work on the mathematical sciences, Newton dedicated much of his time to the study of biblical chronology and alchemy, but most of his work in those areas remained unpublished until long after his death. In his later life, Newton became president of the Royal Society. Newton served the British government as Warden and Master of the Royal Mint.
Newton had been reluctant to publish his calculus because he feared controversy and criticism.[31]
In 1679, Newton returned to his work on (celestial) mechanics by considering gravitation and its effect on the orbits of planets with reference to Kepler's laws of planetary motion.
Sir Isaac Newton is generally credited with the generalised binomial theorem, valid for any rational exponent.[6]

I must bring forth what may at first seem not at all related, but we must trust the possibility that it is not at all unrelated:

Existing Ideas of the Literature on Quantum Gravity

I remember reading, some time ago, in a few places, that a Lagrangian having metric curvature terms in quadratic combinations would give rise to a "re-normalizable" theory while the regular Lagrangian (which involves simply R) of the standard GR theory does not give a "re-normalizable" theory. And this was considered by the writers to be very important in connection with attempts to form a theory of quantum gravitation.

But I don't myself understand either re-normalization or the general theory of quantization. (To me it seems like "quantum theory" is in a sense like a transitional herbal medicine used by "witch doctors".  We don't REALLY  understand what is happening, what the ultimate truth really is, but we have a "cook book" of procedures and ritual that can bused to obtain useful and practical calculations (independent of fundamental truth).)

So it seems of some interest, indeed, that a tensor equation of fourth order may have some possible eventual connection with some conceivable theoretical concept of quantized gravity but it is for me need to find other reason for justifying the study of an equation such as that given here.

My understanding is this:  I suspect then, that the problem of actually physically building a large(er and larger) pyramid truly boils down to the "geometric" problem of circling a square.  Or in other words the question we face today is identical to the measurement problems the Egyptians faced. Those that call for a more accurate projection of what block size should be do not understand the problem.  And this is interesting because if we think of this in relation to what should be the bedrock of our universe, or some form of standardized or uniform field energy or force, then we might understand for example gravity and its uniform relation to a sphere (ie earth).  In other words if gravity were not uniform in an archaic simple thought experiment then naturally a "circle" (sphere or ellipsoid in cosmic reality) would not be the product of that uniform measurement.  Furthermore then the way that gravity effects the stability of the pyramid in relation to block size, would necessarily restrict both the "economic possibility" of the size/magnitude of the largest pyramid standard that we might finally leave through a new digital gold standard.

It means we are capable of not only defining our universe, but in relation to other universes, hence "inter-universal" geometry.

[LiteCoinGuy]