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Author Topic: Automatic Coin Mixing Idea  (Read 8864 times)
caffeinewriter
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November 01, 2012, 08:08:23 AM
 #61

Brilliant! Not to mention the "making change" analogy! +1

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matonis
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December 26, 2012, 11:55:34 AM
 #62


Bottom line is, if coin mixing were built into the client, there would never be a need for anyone to use a coin mixing service, and thereby deliberately and identifiably participate in so-called "money laundering".  Rather, they would be exchanging coins in the normal course of business, the same way I can go to the grocery store with a twenty and ask for two tens without being guilty of "laundering" the twenty.

This process would also help greatly toward network scalability.  If coupled with a scheme where small penny txids (such as those generated by p2pool) were consolidated into amounts large enough to be valid for mixing, this also would defragment them without forcing whoever owns those outputs to deanonymize themselves... this would dramatically reduce the storage burden on near-future clients who will only be tracking unspent transactions instead of the whole block chain.


Mike, do you know the current status of this type of effort?

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I also cover the bitcoin economy for Forbes, American Banker, PaymentsSource, and CoinDesk.
casascius
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December 26, 2012, 04:51:18 PM
 #63

Mike, do you know the current status of this type of effort?

As far as I know, it's only an idea.  I am unaware of any efforts undertaken to turn it into something real.  I have considered doing one by hand as a proof-of-concept: making a forum post saying "here's an address with 25 of my BTC" and "here's an empty address in my wallet" and proposing that someone else produce an incomplete transaction that swaps my 25BTC with theirs, waiting only for me to sign and release it.

Step 2 would be to do the same thing in an IRC channel.

Step 3 would be to write a client that sits in an IRC channel and repeatedly does the same thing with strangers.  (I've never written anything that automates activities on IRC, so while this is something I could do, I probably wouldn't get around to it due to the modest learning curve and other worthwhile priorities)

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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December 27, 2012, 03:41:28 AM
 #64

Mike, do you know the current status of this type of effort?

As far as I know, it's only an idea.  I am unaware of any efforts undertaken to turn it into something real.  I have considered doing one by hand as a proof-of-concept: making a forum post saying "here's an address with 25 of my BTC" and "here's an empty address in my wallet" and proposing that someone else produce an incomplete transaction that swaps my 25BTC with theirs, waiting only for me to sign and release it.

Step 2 would be to do the same thing in an IRC channel.

Step 3 would be to write a client that sits in an IRC channel and repeatedly does the same thing with strangers.  (I've never written anything that automates activities on IRC, so while this is something I could do, I probably wouldn't get around to it due to the modest learning curve and other worthwhile priorities)
I really hope coin mixing catch on, my virgin, self mined coins will be worth a tad more.

As for having this done by default on the main client,,, please stop dreaming.
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December 27, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
 #65

As for having this done by default on the main client,,, please stop dreaming.

Why stop dreaming about good features that could be technically feasible?

A private p2p payment system was nothing but a dream as little as 4 years ago.  Should Satoshi have stopped dreaming about such a grandiose, idealistic, pie-in-the-sky notion?

Private banking and predictable inflation are the two key qualitative differentiators between Bitcoin and all other currencies.  Faster transactions, less fraud, lower transaction fees, all such things are wonderful but can eventually be imitated by traditional banks, while true privacy cannot.  If eventually the Bitcoin community mistakenly starts believing that privacy features are merely peripheral and not worth allocating resources for improvement, it will significantly increase the chance of Bitcoin being rendered irrelevant.  Personally, I'll put my coins where my mouth is and happily donate to any Foundation (or independent) development initiatives to build full anonymity into Bitcoin or as an altchain/fork.
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January 07, 2013, 05:41:47 AM
 #66

As for having this done by default on the main client,,, please stop dreaming.

Why stop dreaming about good features that could be technically feasible?

A private p2p payment system was nothing but a dream as little as 4 years ago.  Should Satoshi have stopped dreaming about such a grandiose, idealistic, pie-in-the-sky notion?

Private banking and predictable inflation are the two key qualitative differentiators between Bitcoin and all other currencies.  Faster transactions, less fraud, lower transaction fees, all such things are wonderful but can eventually be imitated by traditional banks, while true privacy cannot.  If eventually the Bitcoin community mistakenly starts believing that privacy features are merely peripheral and not worth allocating resources for improvement, it will significantly increase the chance of Bitcoin being rendered irrelevant.  Personally, I'll put my coins where my mouth is and happily donate to any Foundation (or independent) development initiatives to build full anonymity into Bitcoin or as an altchain/fork.

Hear, hear.

Besides an argument like "please stop dreaming" is about as vacuous and irrelevant as they get. If a client is released with this feature it could quite quickly become the 'main' (greater than 50%) client ....

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January 08, 2013, 12:34:31 AM
 #67

It wouldn't be hard to prototype a coin mixer using the raw transactions API and a centralized web service (accessible via Tor, if you're worried about it recording your IP address).

If you want to do a really good job, though, you'll need:
  + Lots of people participating and/or
  + Lots of time so your mixes are spread out over time

The 'lots of people' will take time, because the mixing code needs very high trust since it'll be spending your coins.

The 'lots of time' might be a practical problem, because the mixer needs your wallet to be unlocked so it can sign mixing transactions.

Somebody should create a working prototype and then for a Bitcoin Foundation grant to fund the web service for a year...

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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January 08, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
 #68

a far easier thing is to have a server set up with 2 addresses. like an escrow.

address one is displayed. someone inputs 1btc. the address then wont be shown because it contains funds.... instead

address two is displayed. someone inputs 1btc into address 2.  the address now wont be displayed.

the funds of address 2 get sent to the sender of address 1. and vice versa.. all within seconds.(after x confirms lol)

now address 1 is displayed again.

rinse and repeat.

swapping currency 1BTC at a time without risking making a back door in the client. or having to negotiate deals because its a fixed amount swap.

you could also set up a script that asks for the persons clean wallet address before displaying the payment address so that the funds end up in a clean wallet.

leaving them to send their dirty coins to the escrow.. and receive the other persons coins to the clean wallet address. of course more then 2 addresses will be used to cater to more people and a confirmations delay is of standard to avoid double spend scams.. but thats as simple as a mixing service needs to be.

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January 08, 2013, 11:27:26 PM
 #69

A perfect centralized Tor-compatible web service already exists for hooking up these deals: IRC.

The right client could sit in there and make/accept automated requests to do coin swapping.

It doesn't even need to be part of the Satoshi client.  It could be a standalone program that takes two wallets as input: one full of coins and one virgin wallet, call them wallets A and B.

After spending 24 hours in IRC, all the coins should end up in Wallet B, in nice even granular chunks perfectly sized for swapping.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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January 09, 2013, 01:51:12 PM
 #70

A perfect centralized Tor-compatible web service already exists for hooking up these deals: IRC.

The right client could sit in there and make/accept automated requests to do coin swapping.

It doesn't even need to be part of the Satoshi client.  It could be a standalone program that takes two wallets as input: one full of coins and one virgin wallet, call them wallets A and B.

After spending 24 hours in IRC, all the coins should end up in Wallet B, in nice even granular chunks perfectly sized for swapping.

all in wallet B after 24 hours??

better that the first person /msg the IRC bot their preferred receiving wallet addresses and gets given address A to deposit to.
the second person /msg the IRC bot their preferred receiving wallet addresses and gets given B
once both wallets are full and have enough confirms, the funds are send to the respective parties..

and also there would be wallet C D for another swap and E F so that it can keep up with demand while people A B are waiting for confirms before receipt.

all the OP of this thread needs to do is make a IRC bot, not mess with the satoshi client

Do not take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence and respect what is written here as both opinion and information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist
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January 11, 2013, 12:33:12 PM
 #71

I would like to see this idea implemented.  I am willing to donate BTC to the project if anybody wants to take the bull by the horns and go for it.  I would also rather see it done under the auspices of the Bitcoin Foundation, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

And just so we are clear:


A no fee service.
Hopefully implemented into some bitcoin client.
Is rock solid before rolled out to the bitcoin network.
Is tested on some test network first.




Quantum
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January 11, 2013, 01:46:26 PM
 #72

I would like to see this idea implemented.  I am willing to donate BTC to the project if anybody wants to take the bull by the horns and go for it.  I would also rather see it done under the auspices of the Bitcoin Foundation, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

And just so we are clear:

A no fee service.
Hopefully implemented into some bitcoin client.
Is rock solid before rolled out to the bitcoin network.
Is tested on some test network first.

Quantum

Count me in for donations to any serious efforts meeting this spec.
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January 12, 2013, 02:22:22 AM
 #73

I would like to see this idea implemented.  I am willing to donate BTC to the project if anybody wants to take the bull by the horns and go for it.  I would also rather see it done under the auspices of the Bitcoin Foundation, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

And just so we are clear:

A no fee service.
Hopefully implemented into some bitcoin client.
Is rock solid before rolled out to the bitcoin network.
Is tested on some test network first.

Quantum

Count me in for donations to any serious efforts meeting this spec.

same here, I will donate 20 BTC for this
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January 12, 2013, 02:48:47 AM
 #74

Interesting Idea, +1

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future"

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