I'm a sceptic, convince me!

[hashman]

the general public sentiment is of fiat currency being a ponzi pump dump scam and simultaneously capable of supporting terrorism hardcore drug trafficking and pedophilia ... is the reality of the people existing outside of the trollboxes and btcforum ... sorry to break the bad news to you ...

FTFY

[1715409469]

1715409469

[QuestionAuthority]

Bitcoin is backed by orgasms. That's all you need to know. Cum join us.

[nachoig]

I am skeptical about gold. It's not backed by anything. It's a fairly useless metal

Perception is reality.

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

Adam’s Smith’s greatest student, J. B. Say, wrote two centuries ago: “money is indebted for its currency . . . to its being a commodity bearing a peculiar and intrinsic value.”

Go to a society where people doesn't know anything about gold. They have an open market, they trade goods between them, but they don't know about gold. So, where's the value? What you can do with your gold in that society? So, your gold piece in that society still have an instrisic value. But you can't do anything with that, it's useless.

The U.S. dollar is backed by the world's most powerful military pumped by $7xx billion dollars annually.  So yes, it IS backed by something.  Something very large and unfathomably destructive.

But US dollar is not redeemable. This is an interesting point, although of not being the case of US dollar. So, for example, the pound sterling notes have this sentece: "I promise to pay the the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds". But this is just bullshit.

Also, the US dollar is useful only as a medium of exchange only in the countries which use the US dollar as currency.

Bitcoin is not a currency.  A 'virtual currency,' perhaps...but not a currency.  It's simply a medium of exchange.  Just like credit cards, money orders, paypal, and the likes.  IT IS NOT A CURRENCY, no matter what a neckbeard or tinfoil hatter will tell you.

Credit card, money orders and PayPal are not a medium of exchange. They are a medium of payment.

Anyway, it seems you just did a copy and paste of  this, these sentences sound familiar to me... Bitcoin is a currency. It is a unity of account. It has intrisic value. It is a store of value. But, of course, without acceptance your bitcoins are not money.

[jonald_fyookball]

None of the currencies are backed by gold

I'm not out to defend fiat currencies.

Well, if money is a medium of exchange in the strict sense, gold and silver can't be considered money. I can't go to the supermarket and pay with gold or silver.

Because it's not allowed. But in a free market you would be able to pay with gold and silver. Maybe not physical gold and silver, but with redeemable paper notes.

National currencies aren't backed by commodities, but they still are useful as currencies.

Because the government forces people to accept them. If the government forced you to accept squirrel snot, that would be useful too. But it doesn't mean it would survive as money in a free market.

The creation of alternative cryptocurrencies has nothing to do with Bitcoin inflation. They are created to offering features which doesn't exist in Bitcoin, or to just try a different approach. Sometimes they are created just to do a pump-and-dump

But the point is, when people start accepting other cryptocurrencies, the value of the existing ones will drop.

If your concern is fluctuation, well.... Everything fluctuates.  there is no currency, commodity, asset, or anything else on the planet whose value doesn't fluctuate relative to other things.

You seem smart enough that you already understand the pros and cons of Bitcoin.

Not sure what exactly you wish to be convinced of or what your point is with this thread.

There are degrees of fluctuation. It's a big problem if I save bitcoins over several years, and then it's value is decreases by maybe 90 percent because it's not backed by physical commodities.

Then don't invest if its too speculative for you, or only invest a small amount.   
No one is going to tell you to invest more than you're comfortable with.

What a pointless thread.

[BillyBobZorton]

I have to admit that I'm sceptical about Bitcoin. I'll give you my reasons, then please convince me!

Bitcoin is not backed by anything. It would probably not exist in a free market. Money in a free market has always been some kind of commodity. Something that has value beyond its use as a currency. The problem with Bitcoin is that it has no value beyond its use as a currency. Why should it then be regarded as money? Money came into being as a medium of exchange, so that if you got stuck with it it was useful in some way. It wasn't just a piece of paper. It was something that was useful in and of itself. Like gold. Like silver. Bitcoin has none of that. It's just a string of 0s and 1s. Where does it get its value from? I don't think in a free market it would be valued.

Something like Bitcoin could be used as a currency if it was backed by some commodity to do anonymous/quick transactions, but there would be a standard, ultimately, for exchange. It would always be exchangeable into e.g. gold. So that the banks who issued the Bitcoins were contractually obligated to redeem them into gold. Then Bitcoin would serve as a currency, but the money would be the gold.  

There's also the problem with Bitcoin of inflation. Yes, there's a fixed amount of Bitcoins qua Bitcoin, but anyone can create alternative cryptocurrencies. I don't see why Bitcoin has any unique features that cannot be replicated by others, and therefore you will create massive inflation in a digital coin space.

So why do I think Bitcoin is still valued today? I think it is because people are fearful of the dollar. They think it's gonna get useless, and they're looking for alternatives. Bitcoin is a product of this fear. Also, I think people are worrying about their privacy. And with good reason, given the growing government intrusion in our lives. People are looking for ways in which to remain private. In which to remain outside the government's abitily to monitor them. Bitcoin provides that. So right now it's providing a value. The value as privacy. The value that it's not paper money. But in a fre market, which we are all working to realize, I do not believe Bitcoin would exist.

You should buy Bitcoin because if humanity decides to rise above the state it is in now, blockchain technology will be one of the tools used to get it there.

This, decentralization is the future, anything else is death.

[flipstyle]

I am skeptical about gold. It's not backed by anything. It's a fairly useless metal

Perception is reality.

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

Adam’s Smith’s greatest student, J. B. Say, wrote two centuries ago: “money is indebted for its currency . . . to its being a commodity bearing a peculiar and intrinsic value.”

Go to a society where people doesn't know anything about gold. They have an open market, they trade goods between them, but they don't know about gold. So, where's the value? What you can do with your gold in that society? So, your gold piece in that society still have an instrisic value. But you can't do anything with that, it's useless.

The U.S. dollar is backed by the world's most powerful military pumped by $7xx billion dollars annually.  So yes, it IS backed by something.  Something very large and unfathomably destructive.

But US dollar is not redeemable. This is an interesting point, although of not being the case of US dollar. So, for example, the pound sterling notes have this sentece: "I promise to pay the the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds". But this is just bullshit.

Also, the US dollar is useful only as a medium of exchange only in the countries which use the US dollar as currency.

Bitcoin is not a currency.  A 'virtual currency,' perhaps...but not a currency.  It's simply a medium of exchange.  Just like credit cards, money orders, paypal, and the likes.  IT IS NOT A CURRENCY, no matter what a neckbeard or tinfoil hatter will tell you.

Credit card, money orders and PayPal are not a medium of exchange. They are a medium of payment.

Anyway, it seems you just did a copy and paste of  this, these sentences sound familiar to me... Bitcoin is a currency. It is a unity of account. It has intrisic value. It is a store of value. But, of course, without acceptance your bitcoins are not money.

Fair enough on credit card and paypal being a medium of payment.  But it's no different than bitcoin...since ultimately bitcoin is nothing more than a means to ultimately convert to fiat somewhere along the chain.


And show me any country that official defines bitcoin as a 'currency' and not loosely as a 'virtual currency.'  There's a fine difference.  One is backed by governments and power...the other are not.

[Chopperman]

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

So what will happen to gold price when suddenly everyone stop perceiving it as valuable? What if no one buys it as an investment or store of value and the price is solely dictated only by its practical usage (such as electronic and aerospace components)? Will it remain 10% of its current value?

The fact is that most of the gold's price is created by the general agreement that it is precious and valuable, so the 90% (out of the ass estimate) is backed only by perception.

So everyone over night stops seeing a pretty thing as pretty? That would need a cultural revolution the world over   Few substances have the color of gold with tarnish-resistence.
https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/golden_glow/

Gold's inate properties make it desirable amongst a periodic table of silvery and dull metal colored elements.   That perception of worth is very difficult to remove, unlike the perceived value of e.g. Tulip bulbs, where many people in the day were commenting "but why does it carry such worth when the Rose has much more beauty and variety?"

[nachoig]

Fair enough on credit card and paypal being a medium of payment.  But it's no different than bitcoin...since ultimately bitcoin is nothing more than a means to ultimately convert to fiat somewhere along the chain.

If I use all the governement-backed paper money which I receive to convert to silver, will the paper money which I receive just be a medium of payment?

And show me any country that official defines bitcoin as a 'currency' and not loosely as a 'virtual currency.'  There's a fine difference.  One is backed by governments and power...the other are not.

In Bitcoin, people doesn't care or doesn't want to have it backed by the government.

Also, gold and  silver still remain as currencies, even without government backing. The same applies with Bitcoin.

Even more, soreiveign currencies out of circulation still remains as currencies. They just loose the legal tender status, but all ther other properties of a currency are here.

[turvarya]

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

So what will happen to gold price when suddenly everyone stop perceiving it as valuable? What if no one buys it as an investment or store of value and the price is solely dictated only by its practical usage (such as electronic and aerospace components)? Will it remain 10% of its current value?

The fact is that most of the gold's price is created by the general agreement that it is precious and valuable, so the 90% (out of the ass estimate) is backed only by perception.

So everyone over night stops seeing a pretty thing as pretty? That would need a cultural revolution the world over   Few substances have the color of gold with tarnish-resistence.
https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/golden_glow/

Gold's inate properties make it desirable amongst a periodic table of silvery and dull metal colored elements.   That perception of worth is very difficult to remove, unlike the perceived value of e.g. Tulip bulbs, where many people in the day were commenting "but why does it carry such worth when the Rose has much more beauty and variety?"

lol
So Gold is valuable because it is pretty? That is it's intrinsic value?
There are a lot of people, who don't think, that gold is pretty. Who wouldn't wear golden jewelry.
You make it sound like seeing gold as pretty is hardwired into our DNA. It is simply not.

[Jace]

Essentially, nothing is backed. Certainly not the Dollar and Euro.

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

Some people seem to think that gold is some legit kind of backing in and by itself. But gold being intrinsically valuable "because it's a commodity" is circular reasoning. Look up the dictionary meaning of 'commodity': something that is bought and sold, something or someone that is useful or valued. So this actually boils down to: "gold is valuable, because.. it's valuable".

So, again, what backs gold?

I don't agree that it's useless.

Sure, it's nice for jewelry and shit.

But then Bitcoin certainly isn't useless either: in today's global, 24 hour online economy, a frictionless, virtually free, worldwide, digital, instant, 100% secure, transparent, flexible, decentralized payment system is extremely useful.

There's a lot going for both gold and Bitcoin, that can't be said about euros and dollars: they're scarce, they can't be created at whim out of thin air, they're not controlled or issued by some authority, they don't require a 3rd party payment infrastructure (especially one that is fully owned by a handful of private commercial organizations) so they're independent, they can't be counterfeited, and so on. And in terms of ease and costs of transport, security, storage, validation, supply predictability, divisibility, and scalability, Bitcoin does way better than gold.

There's your intrinsic value right there!

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

Value is 100% subjective, so if (and only if) enough people think a bitcoin, or a brick of gold, or a piece of paper with "€100" written on it has value, it has value.
.

[pawel7777]

Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.

So what will happen to gold price when suddenly everyone stop perceiving it as valuable? What if no one buys it as an investment or store of value and the price is solely dictated only by its practical usage (such as electronic and aerospace components)? Will it remain 10% of its current value?

The fact is that most of the gold's price is created by the general agreement that it is precious and valuable, so the 90% (out of the ass estimate) is backed only by perception.

So everyone over night stops seeing a pretty thing as pretty? That would need a cultural revolution the world over   Few substances have the color of gold with tarnish-resistence.
https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/golden_glow/

Gold's inate properties make it desirable amongst a periodic table of silvery and dull metal colored elements.   That perception of worth is very difficult to remove, unlike the perceived value of e.g. Tulip bulbs, where many people in the day were commenting "but why does it carry such worth when the Rose has much more beauty and variety?"

You missed my point. No, gold won't lose 90% overnight for no reason. Point was that huge part of its high value is created by perception, and that part of value is backed by nothing else but that perception.

[Jace]

As for the 'beauty' part: I honestly find a bitcoin more beautiful than gold. Sure, I'm a math geek and all, but still, I honestly do. There's such an intrinsic beauty in its ingenious cryptographic design and mathematical soundness.. it just keeps astonishing me. Gold certainly doesn't have that.

[jdkbbc]

As for the 'beauty' part: I honestly find a bitcoin more beautiful than gold. Sure, I'm a math geek and all, but still, I honestly do. There's such an intrinsic beauty in its ingenious cryptographic design and mathematical soundness.. it just keeps astonishing me. Gold certainly doesn't have that.

There's nothing more beautiful since I first read the bitcoin white paper 8 months ago. And I am not even maths or computer geek!