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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 108105 times)
unclescrooge
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August 15, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
 #801

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?

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JoelKatz
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August 15, 2012, 11:07:27 AM
 #802

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?
Sure. Just explain how that's possible. I've offered to do this several times, but I can't consider something if I can't imagine how it could be possible.

You can't consider a "green idea" until someone explains to you how an idea can be green. It's not possible.

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unclescrooge
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August 15, 2012, 11:08:51 AM
 #803

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?
Sure. Just explain how that's possible. I've offered to do this several times, but I can't consider something if I can't imagine how it could be possible.

Already done, if you're not convinced that's another story.

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August 15, 2012, 11:10:00 AM
 #804

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?
Sure. Just explain how that's possible. I've offered to do this several times, but I can't consider something if I can't imagine how it could be possible.

Already done, if you're not convinced that's another story.
Well, exactly. If you want us to consider something, you have to convince us that it's possible. Until you do that, we *can't* consider it. He is asking us to do something that is impossible for us to do. If you consider that our fault, so be it. But it's just how the world works.

We can't consider a possibility until we are convinced it is possible. We are not convinced it is possible, so asking us to consider it will not work. Convincing us it is possible is logically prior.

It's not that I'm unwilling to do this, I simply do not know how to.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 15, 2012, 11:11:18 AM
 #805

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?
Sure. Just explain how that's possible. I've offered to do this several times, but I can't consider something if I can't imagine how it could be possible.

You can't consider a "green idea" until someone explains to you how an idea can be green. It's not possible.


LOL and this is why I know for a fact you are only a programmer working for some other entity and not in the slightest a businessman.

You consider that since you dont know how something makes money, its just not possible ? I guess trade secrets and the likes is also nothing but magic.

Personally I dont give a rats ass what you believe since it doesnt change the fact people are earning interest wether you know how or not.

I have nothing against you personally JoelKatz but your approach to validating if something is fact or fiction in the businessworld is absurd. You dont have to believe in it but for the love of spacemonkeys making statements that since you cant imagine how it is functional therefore it cannot exist is beyond retarded.

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August 15, 2012, 11:14:28 AM
 #806

You consider that since you dont know how something makes money, its just not possible ? I guess trade secrets and the likes is also nothing but magic.
No, that's not what I said, please try reading it again. It's not that I don't know how it makes money, it's that I don't know how it could be possible that it makes money. So if I try to consider the possibility that it's making money, I literally have no idea what I'm considering.

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have nothing against you personally JoelKatz but your approach to validating if something is fact or fiction in the businessworld is absurd. You dont have to believe in it but for the love of spacemonkeys making statements that since you cant imagine how it is functional therefore it cannot exist is beyond retarded.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if I don't know how something could be possible, I cannot consider the possibility of it. I literally don't know what it is I would be considering. My very first step in reasoning would be blocked as I tried to consider the consequences of an unknown thing.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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unclescrooge
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August 15, 2012, 11:15:17 AM
 #807

Could you just have the decency to consider BTCST could be a legitimate business, instead of trashing others and their "greed"?
Sure. Just explain how that's possible. I've offered to do this several times, but I can't consider something if I can't imagine how it could be possible.

Already done, if you're not convinced that's another story.
Well, exactly. If you want us to consider something, you have to convince us that it's possible. Until you do that, we *can't* consider it. He is asking us to do something that is impossible for us to do. If you consider that our fault, so be it. But it's just how the world works.

We can't consider a possibility until we are convinced it is possible. We are not convinced it is possible, so asking us to consider it will not work. Convincing us it is possible is logically prior.

It's not that I'm unwilling to do this, I simply do not know how to.


You will be convinced when Pirateat40 closes his business. Until then, erf, have fun Smiley

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August 15, 2012, 11:23:37 AM
 #808

You consider that since you dont know how something makes money, its just not possible ? I guess trade secrets and the likes is also nothing but magic.
No, that's not what I said, please try reading it again. It's not that I don't know how it makes money, it's that I don't know how it could be possible that it makes money. So if I try to consider the possibility that it's making money, I literally have no idea what I'm considering.

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have nothing against you personally JoelKatz but your approach to validating if something is fact or fiction in the businessworld is absurd. You dont have to believe in it but for the love of spacemonkeys making statements that since you cant imagine how it is functional therefore it cannot exist is beyond retarded.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if I don't know how something could be possible, I cannot consider the possibility of it. I literally don't know what it is I would be considering. My very first step in reasoning would be blocked as I tried to consider the consequences of an unknown thing.


And why is it that you need to know everything that goes on with other peoples business?
Is it such a difficult concept to grasp that some people know some stuff you don't know and that they are not obliged to disclose their trade secrets to you?

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August 15, 2012, 11:28:47 AM
 #809

One thing I've been thinking of. I am sure Pirate is running a ponzi scheme since every other alternative is exceedingly far-fetched. But I've been wondering about what is his profit goal. Is he keeping his internal books in USD or BTC? If in USD, he won't want to default even if his scheme grows too slow to pay all his (outgoing) interests, as long as the rising price of BTC against USD compensates for that. And has he already sold enough BTC and planned an exit strategy so that he can keep the scheme going until he's out of BTC? You see, he might think he's already rich enough and he might have a way to disappear so that no one can come after him. So, why not just wait and see how long it takes for the ponzi to collapse on its own?

hmm. "pirate at 40" ?

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Bitcoin Oz
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August 15, 2012, 11:34:26 AM
 #810

Cant wait for the book to come out  Smiley

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August 15, 2012, 12:06:45 PM
 #811

You will be convinced when Pirateat40 closes his business. Until then, erf, have fun Smiley
I am really looking forward to all those long self-blaming threads. Hm, actually I think, they would still blame everybody else about the lost opportunity.
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August 15, 2012, 12:07:30 PM
 #812

And why is it that you need to know everything that goes on with other peoples business?
I explained that in the very post that you are responding to. If I don't know how something could be possible, I can't consider that possibility. I wouldn't know what I'm considering. So if you think I need to consider some possibility, then you should also agree that I need to know how it could be possible.

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Is it such a difficult concept to grasp that some people know some stuff you don't know and that they are not obliged to disclose their trade secrets to you?
No, I grasp that concept. Did you read the post you're responding to? It was explaining the consequences of the very thing that you claim I don't grasp.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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Raoul Duke
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August 15, 2012, 12:14:08 PM
 #813

And why is it that you need to know everything that goes on with other peoples business?
I explained that in the very post that you are responding to. If I don't know how something could be possible, I can't consider that possibility. I wouldn't know what I'm considering. So if you think I need to consider some possibility, then you should also agree that I need to know how it could be possible.

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Is it such a difficult concept to grasp that some people know some stuff you don't know and that they are not obliged to disclose their trade secrets to you?
No, I grasp that concept. Did you read the post you're responding to? It was explaining the consequences of the very thing that you claim I don't grasp.


Do you also camp 24/7 on Coca-Cola's HQ's demanding their recipe so you can understand how it can be so delicious without using cocaine?

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August 15, 2012, 12:19:52 PM
 #814

Do you also camp 24/7 on Coca-Cola's HQ's demanding their recipe so you can understand how it can be so delicious without using cocaine?
Actually, I understand that. Vanilla, citrus oil, cinnamon extract, phosphoric acid, and tons of sugar. But if I didn't know that, ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels_and_Twenty_Kegs_of_Coca-Cola

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August 15, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
 #815

Do you also camp 24/7 on Coca-Cola's HQ's demanding their recipe so you can understand how it can be so delicious without using cocaine?
Actually, I understand that. Vanilla, citrus oil, cinnamon extract, phosphoric acid, and tons of sugar. But if I didn't know that, ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels_and_Twenty_Kegs_of_Coca-Cola


We know pirate@40 requires BTC as his ingredient but we dont know how he mixes it up to turn a profit. This would be similar to your own example of knowing the ingredients of coca-cola but having no clue how to mix it up correctly to form the coca-cola flavour.

As soon as pirate@40 adds caffeine to BTCST I will make sure he list it for all to see.

You are now comparing physical health factors(ingredients) with business related financial factors, does seem silly right ?

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August 15, 2012, 12:28:16 PM
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I think the main thing is, the economical niches that can be easily exploited to earn quick and high profit are almost always filled extremely fast. It's just like ecological niches, only much faster.

Let's consider the two main "business models" people tend to propose for Pirate:

If there's almost unlimited demand for bitcoins among millionaire investors (there's no proof of this at all by the way; if this were the case, BTC price would be much higher) someone else would beat Pirate by selling to them at a smaller premium. Pirate must overprice his service since he has to pay his astronomically high interest on his debt. There's only so much you can do to overprice your service just by having the right connections. Someone will have almost as good connections and will be getting a fiat loan as 3% or lower yearly rate to finance a pirate-like service and keep his fees at a small fraction of what Pirate must charge. So, Pirate will be driven out of the market very quickly, since he has voluntarily crippled himself by issuing so much ultra-high interest debt.

The second option: He's controlling the markets and earning super-high profits on market movements, since he can force others' hands by having larger volume than anyone else. Firstly, there's absolutely no evidence that this is happening and extensive evidence to the contrary. Secondly, in a highly artificially manipulated market like this, all other players will change their behaviour in order to not lose so much. Even if he can do the manipulation at high profit ratio for a short time, eventually his returns will dwindle towards nil.

So, it's utterly unbelievable that either of these is the case.
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August 15, 2012, 12:31:26 PM
 #817

If a company like google was going to get into bitcoin they would need to secure a lot of coins and could afford to pay extra to avoid messing with the price too much.  They wouldnt want to signal their entrance into the market.

Where else are they going to go but pirate ?


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August 15, 2012, 12:31:55 PM
 #818

I think the main thing is, the economical niches that can be easily exploited to earn quick and high profit are almost always filled extremely fast. It's just like ecological niches, only much faster.

Let's consider the two main "business models" people tend to propose for Pirate:

If there's almost unlimited demand for bitcoins among millionaire investors (there's no proof of this at all by the way; if this were the case, BTC price would be much higher) someone else would beat Pirate by selling to them at a smaller premium. Pirate must overprice his service since he has to pay his astronomically high interest on his debt. There's only so much you can do to overprice your service just by having the right connections. Someone will have almost as good connections and will be getting a fiat loan as 3% or lower yearly rate to finance a pirate-like service and keep his fees at a small fraction of what Pirate must charge. So, Pirate will be driven out of the market very quickly, since he has voluntarily crippled himself by issuing so much ultra-high interest debt.

The second option: He's controlling the markets and earning super-high profits on market movements, since he can force others' hands by having larger volume than anyone else. Firstly, there's absolutely no evidence that this is happening and extensive evidence to the contrary. Secondly, in a highly artificially manipulated market like this, all other players will change their behaviour in order to not lose so much. Even if he can do the manipulation at high profit ratio for a short time, eventually his returns will dwindle towards nil.

So, it's utterly unbelievable that either of these is the case.

...or he simply functions as a massive ready to use mixer with a 10% fee. Let the speculation roll over.

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August 15, 2012, 12:33:06 PM
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The second option: He's controlling the markets and earning super-high profits on market movements, since he can force others' hands by having larger volume than anyone else. Firstly, there's absolutely no evidence that this is happening and extensive evidence to the contrary.

I guess you missed the day pirate was in IRC and the market was just so happening to do exactly what he would say would happen about a minute after he said it was going to do something.

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August 15, 2012, 12:36:01 PM
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The second option: He's controlling the markets and earning super-high profits on market movements, since he can force others' hands by having larger volume than anyone else. Firstly, there's absolutely no evidence that this is happening and extensive evidence to the contrary.

I guess you missed the day pirate was in IRC and the market was just so happening to do exactly what he would say would happen about a minute after he said it was going to do something.

That has happened more than once in real time most of the time.

Nay-sayers then tried to draw a timeline that he simply had a lower delay socket open and relayed what others would only see later, pure hilarity since these same nay-sayers now assume that every single trader who was idling in #bitcoin and noticing it at the various times were in on agreeing pirate@40 made the moves.

mp420 care to provide the EXTENSIVE evidence that he isnt doing as quoted for option 2 ? Thumb sucking and making such claims doesnt count as evidence.

There is plenty of actual evidence suggesting pirate@40 have >500k BTC ready to use thanks to the BTCST setup, do you now claim that 500K+ isnt enough to move the market ?

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

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