Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[-Greed-]

The whitepaper is surely pretty impressive but I'm not very confident with the pre-sale. No roadmap on development, no release date, manual tokens selling, and no return policy. If there were a bit more transparency (like running the presale over koinify.com), I wound participate. By the way, will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?

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[bytemuma]

Minimum purchase amount of $25 give how many coins?

Can i pay with btc?

[*Sakura*]

You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.

In my opinion, PoS is a good choice, there is no energy waste, mining will be eliminated sooner or later.

+1. PoS will be nice for the attracting IPO buyers.

[lihaidong198871]

what is the pre-sale time?  and where to buy ?

[itsAj]

When will this be released?

[ohad]

You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.

In my opinion, PoS is a good choice, there is no energy waste, mining will be eliminated sooner or later.

+1. PoS will be nice for the attracting IPO buyers.

Well, attracting buyers is only after fairness and security, and I think POS misses on those aspects.
Note however, that the mentioned POW was with respect to timestamping over tauchain -- and this can never be POS, because there are no stakes. Tau-chain begins with nothing, far to mention a coin, and the users set the rules=programs=p2p networks. Of course, when tau is on air yet empty, all participants including devs are totally equal.

[ohad]

The whitepaper is surely pretty impressive but I'm not very confident with the pre-sale. No roadmap on development, no release date, manual tokens selling, and no return policy. If there were a bit more transparency (like running the presale over koinify.com), I wound participate. By the way, will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?

soon an announcement addressing those concerns and more will be published.

Minimum purchase amount of $25 give how many coins?

Can i pay with btc?

yes
the prices appear on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838

[NILIcoin]

OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.

What's the advantage and disadvantage of Tau-chain comparing with the classic blockchain, what about the blockchain of NXT?

The most truthful and covering answer would be: on tau's chain, rules and behavior can be changed over time by the users.
But this answer is obviously not enough.

Let me state a very particular use case: Over tau one could give a formal specification of a program to be written. Like: a program that only verifies if a given program meets some requirements. Of course, it is inherently much easier to verify a program than to write it. Now, whoever supplies a code that fulfills the requirements, will be able to supply a logical proof for that (it is possible with functional programming languages), and the network will automatically reward them the coins offered for the implementation.
Moreover: next time someone will look for a program (or function) answering those specifications, the answer will already be there, and code will be able to be reused.

It sounds  a little bit like Ethereum.

I just came back from a meeting with Ohad (we happened to live an hour apart and met on Mastercoin hakaton) and got his permission to use this thread freely to demonstrate right on it my take on Tau-chain which will make it easier to understand some of the Tau-chain future use. it will take a bit of time and may be a bit annoying, and may not be all that great, but I think that it will help, so I apologies  ahead of time.  

[ohad]

I just came back from a meeting with Ohad (we happened to live an hour apart and met on Mastercoin hakaton) and got his permission to use this thread freely to demonstrate right on it my take on Tau-chain which will make it easier to understand some of the Tau-chain future use. it will take a bit of time and may be a bit annoying, and may not be all that great, but I think that it will help, so I apologies  ahead of time.  

The permission is hereby given to literally everyone

[profitofthegods]

Bounties

Agoras' XCP intermediate tokens at worth of:

1. $1500 will be rewarded to whom giving a winning common-people understandable definition of tauchain. The definition has to be simple, accurate, and give the listener an ability to understand what can be done with the system in strong sense (not only "change blockchain's rules").

I'm not a programmer so I don't really understand a lot of the whitepaper and I'm not sure whether I've got a right understanding from what I read or not, but  $1500 is a good excuse to try and work out wtf you are doing with this thing so here is my attempt:

Tau Chain creates a network of computers which work together as a kind of distributed truth engine.  Any computer within this network can submit a solution to a task which somebody wants completed, whether it is storing files, performing a calculation, or writing a piece of code to perform a specific function. The Tau Chain provides a flexible set of tools for the network to tell whether that computer is telling the truth about performing the task or solving the problem.

Through the inclusion of data about the meaning of words, and their relationships to each other - which has already been highly developed in a machine accessible way by search engine engineers trying to help computers to respond naturally to questions people type into places like Google, the Tau Chain would be able to apply the same logic to verify whether human statements are true or false, and to give people answers to logical questions.

This allows the Tau Chain network to perform a wide range of useful functions in a decentralized way.

In fact, it may well be the case that it is able to do these things in a more decentralized way than other cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, because no matter how collaborative an open source project might be, its development must ultimately have a central authority to lead the development. The ability to check whether code performs a required task may mean that Tau Chain users are able to propose and vote on features they want, put them out to tender, and validate any solution which is provided, all through the network itself without the need for a central authority.

Over time the network would build up a big library of pieces of code, each of which would have been proven to perform specific tasks. Eventually, it may even be able to combine these code fragments together itself to provide its own (artificially) intelligently designed computer programs.

In the same way, libraries of statements people have made, and whether they are true or false, might also be built up. This would allow the network to use the collective power of all its participants to answer ever more complex questions, and to embed the facts which it retains in an increasingly broad context, or meaning.

[ohad]

Bounties

Agoras' XCP intermediate tokens at worth of:

1. $1500 will be rewarded to whom giving a winning common-people understandable definition of tauchain. The definition has to be simple, accurate, and give the listener an ability to understand what can be done with the system in strong sense (not only "change blockchain's rules").

I'm not a programmer so I don't really understand a lot of the whitepaper and I'm not sure whether I've got a right understanding from what I read or not, but  $1500 is a good excuse to try and work out wtf you are doing with this thing so here is my attempt:

Tau Chain creates a network of computers which work together as a kind of distributed truth engine.  Any computer within this network can submit a solution to a task which somebody wants completed, whether it is storing files, performing a calculation, or writing a piece of code to perform a specific function. The Tau Chain provides a flexible set of tools for the network to tell whether that computer is telling the truth about performing the task or solving the problem.

Through the inclusion of data about the meaning of words, and their relationships to each other - which has already been highly developed in a machine accessible way by search engine engineers trying to help computers to respond naturally to questions people type into places like Google, the Tau Chain would be able to apply the same logic to verify whether human statements are true or false, and to give people answers to logical questions.

This allows the Tau Chain network to perform a wide range of useful functions in a decentralized way.

In fact, it may well be the case that it is able to do these things in a more decentralized way than other cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, because no matter how collaborative an open source project might be, its development must ultimately have a central authority to lead the development. The ability to check whether code performs a required task may mean that Tau Chain users are able to propose and vote on features they want, put them out to tender, and validate any solution which is provided, all through the network itself without the need for a central authority.

Over time the network would build up a big library of pieces of code, each of which would have been proven to perform specific tasks. Eventually, it may even be able to combine these code fragments together itself to provide its own (artificially) intelligently designed computer programs.

In the same way, libraries of statements people have made, and whether they are true or false, might also be built up. This would allow the network to use the collective power of all its participants to answer ever more complex questions, and to embed the facts which it retains in an increasingly broad context, or meaning.

Looks good!
It focuses nicely on the code and logic parts, also mentioning the shared knowledge nature.
What about rule-making like democracy, for example? Real one!
Another worth mentioning thing is that apps over tauchain may or may not be decentralized. They can be written as literally any program.
Last, it is almost all about what can be done with the system - it is not what the bare system is.

[NILIcoin]

The permission is hereby given to literally everyone

Gotta love ohad's attitude!  

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he  may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand, they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain to change a rule, he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.

[ohad]

The permission is hereby given to literally everyone

Gotta love ohad's attitude!  

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand and they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.

nice approach.
i must only mention that no coin here.

[NILIcoin]

The permission is hereby given to literally everyone

Gotta love ohad's attitude!  

The first move Has just been made, upon my comment Ohad made a new rule, A rule that is not comply with the moderators rules, thus very soon the things that he may allow to do on his thread are going to be against the rules of the moderators. Now, if anything that we do here is about demonstrating the content and essence of his platform and coin, thus it may be the most important part of  his thread. So we got a big conflict about to strike and since on the bitcoin forum the moderators have the upper hand and they can delete it all.

If this was on the blockchain, all the rules would be preset and my comments will be deleted even if Ohad wanted them to stay. On the blockchain he would have  to launch a 51% attack on the system and would have to have enough power to do so. (The thing we call democracy is in actual a 51% attack on our freedom as individuals) . But if this forum was set on the Tau-Chain a totally different thing would shape up: NO voting required (and most unwanted trolling will vanish). Once I will brake the rule Ohad will be able to accept it. if no one else oppose, it will change the blockchain to allow for comments categorized as "for delete" by the system  to stay on Ohads thread. He will in practice customized his thread. Now if my comment will offend Someone else that person will have the power to try and change it so the comment will be deleted.... but  let me actualy demonstrate a possible conflict here on another comment, since this is where it start to get really interesting and far more complex.

nice approach.
i must only mention that no coin here.

True, no coins yet, but soon in my plot I will present the point in which coins become very useful for the "game"of making rules to achieve maximum efficiency. And I believe that as you progress with the development of your platform, the perfect use of a coin will emerge. The stick and the carrot almost always work, unless you are a stick laughing at the carrot, but most of us are not HMC  

[NILIcoin]

So... from what I saw you were telling people in the Zennet thread, there was a decentralized cloud computing project merging with a decentralized local market place app, or something similar.

Then I come here to look at it, open a whitepaper pdf, and it looks suspiciously like you guys are actually building what amounts to a giant artifical intelligence which is going to eat the internet.



Evil plotting racoon approves.

Unfortunately I can't really spare $100 - but I wish you luck.

Any structure, that of a building or that of a social organisation  was created  or is  running by an engineered program. Engineering being the set of rules applied to matter or living systems is that which is laid beneath anything whatsoever.
When we coin the term engineered we often assume a predetermined design executed  and controlled by the force of the designer engineer.. Engineering  often defined as the application of  knowledge in order to create something. But that definition apply only in the case of an external centralized fixed engineered scheme. The other type,The type that rules in most of nature's behavior and all forms of life is decentralized, and it is rarely  categorized as engineered unless assuming an external force, namely God.  When we come to asses the benefit of a decentralized system we are looking at the operation itself and not at how it was created.  An engineered system can be ruled internally by a small and powerful minority or by a large majority, but only a P2P network can be such that the power to change the design is equally divided between all participant at any given moment,  and the rules of the design can be affected and can evolve as a result of a direct feedback interaction between individuals and their environment Tau- Chain to my understanding is the next step in that direction..not only AI but A-Life, which on its most fundamental level is a decentralized P2P engineered scheme, set to create the most complex network of interaction limited by self destruction and navigated by the forces of both.

This is the next set of comments which I will alter in a way that will create a conflict for the forum rules. Im posting it here as a comment so you will have the original one to compare before I will treat it beyond recondition . so this is the record for "before" . (by the way I already changed it once to enter a new comment onto the first page)

and this is how it looks now https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg10412813#msg10412813

[ohad]

Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2

[ohad]

Yet another summarized definition of tau-chain http://tauchain.org
(Ctrl+F5)

[-Greed-]

Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2

Some things are still not clear for me:

1) Will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?
2) How about having a bit more tranparency like reporting about sold/remaining coins and current price?
3) Any refund policy (if you don't reach the $2M goal)?

BTW, here are crowdsale best practices: https://github.com/DavidJohnstonCEO/CrowdsaleBestPractices

[ohad]

Published some notes and clarifications at http://www.idni.org/blog/post2

Some things are still not clear for me:

1) Will we be able to trade the tokens when the pre-sale ends?
2) How about having a bit more tranparency like reporting about sold/remaining coins and current price?
3) Any refund policy (if you don't reach the $2M goal)?

BTW, here are crowdsale best practices: https://github.com/DavidJohnstonCEO/CrowdsaleBestPractices

1) These are XCP tokens - you can do with them whatever you like from the very moment you got them. I send them immediately to purchasers.
2) It's all transparent! How much was sold, the BTC address etc. See last post on zennet thread.
3) No refund, but, no escape for me not to dev. I will supply the products with or without successful presale. It'll take more time, less features and quality, and coin holders will hold much bigger stake. But no, no refund and no escape from supplying a network.

As for the best practices, there's much to tell, but I'll only mention that I tend to look from a broad perspective of the whole software world, not only the Bitcoin world. It's also about ethics.

[ohad]

"About Tau-Chain" submitted to arXiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.04120
And, btw: http://primeurmagazine.com/weekly/AE-PR-03-15-83.html
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