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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 237415 times)
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August 26, 2015, 12:52:27 AM
 #241




The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?



I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

Post some screen capture videos of yourself using it.



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August 26, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
 #242

The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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August 26, 2015, 12:59:34 AM
 #243

i like the idea, something new at least.

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August 26, 2015, 01:02:29 AM
 #244

i like the idea, something new at least.



I like the idea also. It sucks I have to miss out because its way over priced.



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August 26, 2015, 03:14:07 AM
 #245

i like the idea, something new at least.

I like the original distributed computer idea. Wonder where that went?

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August 26, 2015, 03:16:01 AM
 #246

i like the idea, something new at least.

I like the original distributed computer idea. Wonder where that went?

It never went but is only one among many other features in Agoras, most of them (which I try to put emphasis on) are possible only thanks to tau's unique features.

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August 26, 2015, 06:09:50 PM
 #247

The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?



Don't you have the majority of TAU? If you consider TAU money, then you have it all. Now do some code! LOL



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August 26, 2015, 06:23:56 PM
 #248

The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.
Can you make some sort of comparison to other projects and valuations?
I have no idea what this even does. I've never seen a demo video of what you can do with TAU.

No video yet, but did you catch www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money ?



Don't you have the majority of TAU? If you consider TAU money, then you have it all. Now do some code! LOL




have a look at the code github.com/naturalog/tauchain

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August 27, 2015, 06:24:06 AM
 #249

A special offer to wholesales in september was announced: http://www.idni.org/blog/sep-special

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August 27, 2015, 06:44:19 PM
 #250

I have a few questions:
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?
- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?
- Will the Tau node to be a full fledged RDF triple store and SPARQL end-point?
- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?
- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?
- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.
- Where can I find more (code / documents) about the JIT compilation of the Tau language?
- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?
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August 27, 2015, 09:02:36 PM
 #251

I have a few questions:
- Do you have a specification (ontology, BNF grammar, spec document...) of the Tau language as it is now and/or as it is supposed to become once all the networking and crypto features are built in?

The syntax of the language itself is not new. The RDF family is basically all syntax-sugaring to NQuads http://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/ so all RDF languages can be converted to NQuads, while plenty of converters out there. Current tau's code can read NQuads, JSON-LD, and (yet partial) Notation3.

Supporting network features etc. is done via builtins, which is also a common mechanism among RDF reasoners. See for example http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/CwmBuiltins

- Where can I find a Tau code example that emulates simple procedural behavior like a loop for instance?

Let me use the cwm builtins I just linked to demonstrate printing numbers from 1 to 10:

1 log:outputString 1.
{ ?x log:outputString ?x. (1 ?x) math:sum ?y. ?y math:lessThan 11 } => { ?y log:outputString ?y }.

see http://pastebin.com/H2gqLUzC

- Will the Tau node to be a full fledged RDF triple store and SPARQL end-point?

Except I won't promise now we'll use exact SPARQL syntax, then sure. Tau can be equivalently described as a decentralized triplestore with dependent types.

- How do you plan to make the transition from knowledge (decision of spawning a new socket for instance) to action (making a system call to create a new socket): will each i/o module poll the knowledge base periodically for relevant action? Will you place control points at key steps of the inference process to intercept propositions with a known action semantic and take action?
- Will input from i/o module trigger asynchronous reasonning or will it just add new propositions in the knowledge base for some synchronous process to reason with at next iteration?

At the syntax level, IO is just another builtin predicate, like { ?z a tau:tcpEndpoint } => { ?y tau:tcpConnect ?z }. At the typesystem level, we of course have Effect types/Monads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
The reasoning flow does not change at all due to IO (in general), but types originated from IO are tagged as effect types and of course aren't treated as "pure truth". A good reference is how Idris use side effects http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/drafts/eff-tutorial.pdf

- Is the interface between the knowledge base and the system level functionalities already developed or specified? Where can I find further details?

Apologies but I didn't really understand the question.

- How can Tau guarantee that it can determine the upper bound of when a program can halt in less time than it would take to run the program? What if the program is already the shortest possible program to solve the problem it represents? At most I could imagine how code analysis could help determining a big-o estimate of the program complexity but then that won't help much to make sure that the program can run within the time boundaries of a given blockhain block as was suggested in the cointelegraph interview.

This goes right back to decidability, and to the point that one shouldn't expect the autoprover to prove all math by itself instantly.

Assume I write a tau or idris program that halts on the first zero of Riemann's Zeta which is not on the critical line. Of course, no one expect the prover to determine quickly if this program ever halt. If I knew how to do that magic, I'd already take $6M by solving the 6 math open problems of Clay institute Smiley

On the other hand, since the logic is decidable, the provable statements are exactly all correct statements and vice versa. Since every program has some runtime complexity, it is apriorily possible to give a proof for a runtime of any program.

So assume I wrote some simpler code with runtime complexity that I know how to compute and prove, then I can specify my proof or parts of it, and let the prover finish the missing details.

- Where can I find more (code / documents) about the JIT compilation of the Tau language?

This is exactly what I work on these days, so I'll have to finish first.

- Are there archives of IRC discussions / forum discussions / email discussions etc that can help understanding decisions made around the design?

I don't think there's anything one can easily track. ~10MB of text won't help anyone. So for now one can only ask and get answers, and with time we'll document everything.


Please let me know if I missed something or if other questions arise.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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August 27, 2015, 09:59:57 PM
 #252

Also I encourage you to play with http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/race/

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August 28, 2015, 06:13:11 AM
 #253




The marketcap is 7 million USD. The project looks cool but I'm not sure if this should be valued at more than 1 million dollars right now today.




This looks like a strong idea even though I don't understand much of the white paper details. Is Tau-Chain purely valued through this Agoras? If later someone wants to use Tau-Chain to solve some problem they buy Agoras (from market?) and pay for the usage of Tau-Chain network (how pricing the usage?). I understood inside Tau-Chain own rules can be set for that so can they make a rule to let someone use lot of computing power without charging anything? Or maybe I don't understand the logic where the value of Agoras might come..

If one Agoras is around 0.0006 and market cap is 7M USD or 30000 BTC (where to see the market cap?), then little over 50M Agoras is owned by people? And there is 147B Agoras to be shared. So 0.034% of the total amount is shared at the moment? Are my conclusion/numbers correct?
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August 28, 2015, 06:33:45 AM
 #254

This looks like a strong idea even though I don't understand much of the white paper details. Is Tau-Chain purely valued through this Agoras? If later someone wants to use Tau-Chain to solve some problem they buy Agoras (from market?) and pay for the usage of Tau-Chain network (how pricing the usage?). I understood inside Tau-Chain own rules can be set for that so can they make a rule to let someone use lot of computing power without charging anything? Or maybe I don't understand the logic where the value of Agoras might come..

Tau is completely independent in Agoras or its coins. Agoras, on the other hand, is an application over tau. Everyone can write apps over tau - that's the very intention. So formally, tau as for itself is not funded. Also it does not come with a coin, but coins can be programmed over it.
Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

If one Agoras is around 0.0006 and market cap is 7M USD or 30000 BTC (where to see the market cap?), then little over 50M Agoras is owned by people? And there is 147B Agoras to be shared. So 0.034% of the total amount is shared at the moment? Are my conclusion/numbers correct?

No, the 42M intermediate tokens represent 100% of all future coins, no matter if they'll be 147B or any other number, and the prices refer to those intermediate tokens.

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August 29, 2015, 12:39:44 AM
 #255


Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.


Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?
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August 29, 2015, 01:03:25 AM
 #256


Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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August 29, 2015, 07:36:27 AM
 #257

Is it possible to write already apps on some alpha version? I would like to try out ;-)
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August 29, 2015, 07:39:16 AM
 #258

Is it possible to write already apps on some alpha version? I would like to try out ;-)

For now you can do on tau what existing RDF reasoners would do (specifically Euler[EYE]) and at the same syntax, which is Turing complete btw. When we'll finish the typesystem it'll be essentially different, and ofc tau will cease to be Turing complete at that point.

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August 29, 2015, 11:49:46 AM
 #259


Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

What makes people who trade code asking Agoras in return of their services? Same applies for the other suggested markets, what obliges people to start using Agoras? They could ask, accept and take e.g. BTC, fiat or some other “app currency” instead?

Is there strong enough incentive for early adaptors and early coders to start asking compensations and stick in Agoras and what is that incentive? How sure it is that Agoras will be accepted as “the money” over tau? If not so and there’s no trading volume after IPO, price starts going down and coders easily abandon the Agoras ship…
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August 29, 2015, 11:57:30 AM
 #260


Since after all one has to develop economical part over tau, using tau's unique features, we're going to do it as Agoras. And we do need to distribute the coins somehow, hence the presale.

Can you explain more about this? What can I do, in terms of interfacing with Tau, with Agoras? Is it just another cryptocurrency that is just built using Tau, or does it have some special status or feature within Tau Chain? Why would anyone want to own Agoras over another cryptocurrency within Tau, or outside of Tau for that matter?

Agoras is indeed "just another app" over tau. This is important to bear in mind. Everyone can create more currencies over tau, and tau doesn't have a coin as for itself.

But Agoras is of course far beyond a cryptocurrency. It will have markets for trading code for money in a totally secure and trustless way (as in Code and Money blogpost), allow renting computational power with or without verification of execution, renting professionals in video conference and micropayments, smart contracts, pay-for-proof wheter it's math homework or a program to write, decentralized intelligent search engine, and even more.

What makes people who trade code asking Agoras in return of their services? Same applies for the other suggested markets, what obliges people to start using Agoras? They could ask, accept and take e.g. BTC, fiat or some other “app currency” instead?

Is there strong enough incentive for early adaptors and early coders to start asking compensations and stick in Agoras and what is that incentive? How sure it is that Agoras will be accepted as “the money” over tau? If not so and there’s no trading volume after IPO, price starts going down and coders easily abandon the Agoras ship…

Accepting BTC or fiat for features elevating tau's unique properties (such as decidability and proofs over code) is of course impossible - such features are impossible to be implement over existing chains, even ethereum's.
As for the risk that someone else will write another and better Agoras, I think such risk exists in every project that comes to mind.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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