Dirty coins

[velhoti]

A lot of people here talking about drugs, as money used for drugs are dirty but probably a great part of bitcoins was already used for drugs in black markets, stolen by scams or anything else dirty. For now I see bitcoin much more dirty than clean and most people dont care about the past.

[1713991655]

1713991655

[Jakesy]

Again, WHO determines which coins are dirty?  A 3rd party?

How do they PROVE coins are dirty?  I.E., I don't like my neighbor - I think he's up to no good... don't accept his BTC.

I've never witnessed anybody turn down cash because it was previously involved in a drug deal. 

Again, this leads to ELITISM and CONTROL.

[BillyBobZorton]

Most cash have been involved with some kind of drity transactions at some point. Are they blacklisted or marked as dirty?
Do people refuse to use them? are they destroyed?
No people still accept them, I dont see why it would be any diffrent with bitcoin

Indeed. It would make people paranoid about accepting btc because it may come from illegal origin. It's not innocent people's fault. Just let the coins circulate freely.

[DieJohnny]

Again, WHO determines which coins are dirty?  A 3rd party?

How do they PROVE coins are dirty?  I.E., I don't like my neighbor - I think he's up to no good... don't accept his BTC.

I've never witnessed anybody turn down cash because it was previously involved in a drug deal. 

Again, this leads to ELITISM and CONTROL.

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

[DieJohnny]

Bitcoin was created for the purpose of being a currency. Why do you want it to be a judiciary?

It's the police's job to follow the connections between transactions and arrest the person who wants to buy a car with stolen money... or does he? What if he is innocent but happened to receive a payment from other person (and this one was related to the crime)? Finding who's to blame can't be just programmed in a protocol.

Sure but the information is there. I want the service, sooner or later someone will provide an app that does what I want. Maybe I will do it, just to bug everyone on this thread.

[R2D221]

Sure but the information is there. I want the service, sooner or later someone will provide an app that does what I want. Maybe I will do it, just to bug everyone on this thread.

Do it, and see how many really want a non fungible Bitcoin.

[R2D221]

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

Why only famous services? For this to work, you would need everyone to agree with this.

Also, how do you know that person is a drug dealer? Did you check the banknote serial numbers in a database?

[dothebeats]

Scammers and launderers choose bitcoin as a medium of money transfer because they deem it "safe" to use because of its anonymity. We cannot deny the fact that bitcoin is being actively used as a currency in the deep web, and seeing those seized coins sure does taint the great name of bitcoin.

[DieJohnny]

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

Why only famous services? For this to work, you would need everyone to agree with this.

Also, how do you know that person is a drug dealer? Did you check the banknote serial numbers in a database?

I am talking about a service for one person not everyone. I ask for someone's originating address, i type it into my dirty coin checker. I can choose to do business or not based on the results.

[DieJohnny]

Sure but the information is there. I want the service, sooner or later someone will provide an app that does what I want. Maybe I will do it, just to bug everyone on this thread.

Do it, and see how many really want a non fungible Bitcoin.

Just FUD

[R2D221]

Just do it already, then.

[odolvlobo]

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

Why only famous services? For this to work, you would need everyone to agree with this.

Also, how do you know that person is a drug dealer? Did you check the banknote serial numbers in a database?

I am talking about a service for one person not everyone. I ask for someone's originating address, i type it into my dirty coin checker. I can choose to do business or not based on the results.

It's not that easy. The person can't be forced to send from a particular address. They could show you a clean address and send from a tainted address instead, and now all your coins are tainted (if you aren't careful).

There might be ways to mitigate or prevent this, but not with a simple blacklist service.

[amspir]

I am talking about a service for one person not everyone. I ask for someone's originating address, i type it into my dirty coin checker. I can choose to do business or not based on the results.

It's not that easy. The person can't be forced to send from a particular address. They could show you a clean address and send from a tainted address instead, and now all your coins are tainted (if you aren't careful).

There might be ways to mitigate or prevent this, but not with a simple blacklist service.

If the sender is sending from a shared walled (like an account on an exchange) it would be difficult to comply with such a request.   If I were asked for my originating address(es) before sending a payment, I would take a pass for turning the transaction into a hassle.   As bitcoin starts being adopted by the masses, I really doubt that the average non-technical bitcoin user could even figure out how to find the originating addresses about to be used in a transaction.

When case law eventually determines if bitcoin is fungible or not, in the case of "not fungible", bitcoin will likely fail as a convenient method of exchange, since it can be legally seized if it was ever used as part of criminal activity.   If the law considers bitcoin fungible, your only legal obligation will be to prove that you acquired it in good faith and not as part of some criminal activity. 

[Jakesy]

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

Why only famous services? For this to work, you would need everyone to agree with this.

Also, how do you know that person is a drug dealer? Did you check the banknote serial numbers in a database?

I am talking about a service for one person not everyone. I ask for someone's originating address, i type it into my dirty coin checker. I can choose to do business or not based on the results.

But WHAT constitutes 'dirty'?  What's 'dirty' for one individual may not be for the next (think global transfer).  Boycott the vendor not the coins.

The only one that's gonna create such an app for you is the gov't... 

Do you not realize that the right to freely trade is a basic human right?

[DieJohnny]

This is just fear and noise because you are afraid of the ramifications. Any service could be as customizeable as you want. You want to only check relationship to famous addresses: Bitstamp address for example, then you could do it.

I see cash transactions all the time that do not happen because the person with the cash is a drug dealer. It happens.

Why only famous services? For this to work, you would need everyone to agree with this.

Also, how do you know that person is a drug dealer? Did you check the banknote serial numbers in a database?

I am talking about a service for one person not everyone. I ask for someone's originating address, i type it into my dirty coin checker. I can choose to do business or not based on the results.

But WHAT constitutes 'dirty'?  What's 'dirty' for one individual may not be for the next (think global transfer).  Boycott the vendor not the coins.

The only one that's gonna create such an app for you is the gov't... 

Do you not realize that the right to freely trade is a basic human right?

I already said as a global mining or payment option checking for dirty coins is fraught with issues. However, for me it would be a nice service I would want, especially when buying on localbitcoins. Before i meet with the guy I will ask for an address for proof of funds. I will check his address to see what the dirty factor is, I can choose to skip meeting him if i want.

Will also be a nice way to avoid getting shot and killed by the Bitstamp thief.

The right to freely trade is a basic right, as is the right to refuse!!!  It is a fact of life that some people cannot do basic transactions in life because they have violated the trust of people or society, it is just the way it is.

I think it would also be a cool app to see how dirty your own coins are.

[R2D221]

The right to freely trade is a basic right, as is the right to refuse!!!

I'm not sure about the “right to refuse”. If you refuse to give service to someone, for example, because they're black, that's discrimination and a crime in certain jurisdictions (it should be everywhere).

[Jakesy]

The right to freely trade is a basic right, as is the right to refuse!!!

I'm not sure about the “right to refuse”. If you refuse to give service to someone, for example, because they're black, that's discrimination and a crime in certain jurisdictions (it should be everywhere).

Haha I don't think anybody is convinced with this app...

I still don't know what constitutes a 'dirty' coin... it's open to interpretation.  DieJohnny wants to impose his morals on everybody.

And who proves these coins are 'dirty?'   A 3rd party?  And who's to say those coins aren't ALREADY in your possession and this 3rd party deems them 'dirty' later? 

[odolvlobo]

I already said as a global mining or payment option checking for dirty coins is fraught with issues. However, for me it would be a nice service I would want, especially when buying on localbitcoins. Before i meet with the guy I will ask for an address for proof of funds. I will check his address to see what the dirty factor is, I can choose to skip meeting him if i want.

I think it would also be a cool app to see how dirty your own coins are.

Your localbitcoins scenario won't work because the bitcoins are sent from a wallet owned by localbitcoins and the seller does not know where they will come from.

Blockchain.info has a "taint" feature that will give the sources of the bitcoins at an address. You can check to see what percentage are from specific addresses.

[countryfree]

I believe in organization. Miners' duty is to mine, to process transactions. If someone, acting like a police force, wants to follow illegal transactions, that's fine, but we should not give that role to miners.

[Maxpayne86]

Most cash have been involved with some kind of drity transactions at some point. Are they blacklisted or marked as dirty?
Do people refuse to use them? are they destroyed?
No people still accept them, I dont see why it would be any diffrent with bitcoin

Comparing with cash is interesting but not the same. You cannot in 1 second find out how your cash has ever been spent. However, with Bitcoin I can.

I am not saying you would transact any different with all the information about all the cash you came into contact with, but you might. For example, if you found out some of the cash being offered was stolen from your neighbor you might say no thanks.

If you knew how cash was used, you wouldn't be using cash anymore. As well as the bank money, where do you think the drug money goes to? To Banks like HSBC

You have an easy solution, stop using money, sell  your cows and pigs in exchange for water and food.