2012-07-25 various - (regulator hits 'brazillian bitcoin investment group')

[unclescrooge]

This is an investment fund only if bitcoin is recognized as money by the parasites that be.

True this is a very interesting case

[Gabi]

Lol, a government attacking our funny little game? Nonsense, we made (ok i know i did nothing) our game, we play it and they now tell us to stop? Next thing will be what, Brazil attacking EVE Online? World of Warcraft? They too have VIRTUAL MONEY
Hell, in EVE they too invest and get paid a % interest! Go Brazil, suspend EVE now!!!!!! Omg a friend of mine invested some eve money in a corporation building spaceships, is that illegal? 

[conspirosphere.tk]

Never underestimate the craziness of governments and their presumption to have to regulate everything and forbid what they don't like.

[ArticMine]

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

[vokain]

This is what Leandro tells me via email:

Hello Leandro,
Very unfortunate with what I just heard! Will the recent incident with CVM affect the bitcoins I have with you?

Best,
Anthony

No effects!

More a few days, the site will be launched!!

Any questions, I am here!

Hugs.

L.

So what exactly did CVM charge you with? Did someone report your fund?

Anthony

No!

They did find on bitcointalk fórum!!!!

There is a gov big brother here in Brazil!

Friend, be the first to know!!!

http://bitcoinrain.com/

Did you see?

L.

Bitcoin Rain looks nice, curious to what it will look like Did they mandate that you cannot say that you operate out of brazil?

I cant say that this group exists. I cant announce this site on Brazil.

Sucks!

L.

your biggest market was brazil! what will happen to your investors from brazil?

They can make investments on new site.

Only me cant make announce on Brazil!

L.

[ThiagoCMC]

Not as a currency, but CVM just classified Bitcoin as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_(finance)

[ThiagoCMC]

This is just showing that Brazil is not going to be the place to do bitcoin related business, I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit. This seems like a lazy decision by some official "what? bitcoin, Reals whatever, you need a 'licence' to continue".

Quite the opposite!!

Now, every single company in Brazil will want Bitcoins!! Because, now, Bitcoin is a Security for the Brazilian Government.

I just LOL a lot!!

[ThiagoCMC]

Not as a currency, but CVM just classified Bitcoin as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_(finance)

WTF is CVM?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Commission_(Brazil)

[beckspace]

CVM isn't quite government. It's an autarchy.

Rule yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarchism

[ThiagoCMC]

CVM isn't quite government. It's an autarchy.

Rule yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarchism

Yes, it isn't the government itself but, it is directly linked to it... "Works for it"...

Sorry... My mistake...

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Lol, a government attacking our funny little game? Nonsense, we made (ok i know i did nothing) our game, we play it and they now tell us to stop?

Why are you laughing? They already made them stop. Leandro had to close his funds if he doesn't want to be forced to pay thousands in fines and eventually even be kidnapped.

Next thing will be what, Brazil attacking EVE Online? World of Warcraft? They too have VIRTUAL MONEY
Hell, in EVE they too invest and get paid a % interest! Go Brazil, suspend EVE now!!!!!! Omg a friend of mine invested some eve money in a corporation building spaceships, is that illegal? 

Don't give them too much ideas!

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

How did they suspend your investment? 

Stop that! Or we'll say stop again!!

It's more like:

Stop that! Or we'll force you to pay R$5.000,00 (~250BTC) per day of disobedience!

[unclescrooge]

this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government

That someone is telling others adults to stop their voluntary exchanges is just a classic move of the parasites that (try to) rule us, and in any way should be considered "normal" (although nowadays most people find it normal that someone can tell other adults to stop doing business with one another, what a sad world we live in...).

[Nefario]

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this

Leandro was not hiding his identity.

, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

[Raoul Duke]

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this

Leandro was not hiding his identity.

, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

Doesn't that concern you in regards to GLBSE? You're also not anonymous. Far from it.

[Nefario]

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this

Leandro was not hiding his identity.

, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

Doesn't that concern you in regards to GLBSE? You're also not anonymous. Far from it.

This is something I've also thought about and I don't think I'm in the same boat as this gentleman for a number of reasons.

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil (and especially China). Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I think the key to this whole event it this

Leandro was not hiding his identity.

, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I agree. I prevented him of the danger, actually. Something tells me a part of him wanted this to happen, but this is just my speculation.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Yeah, but there's always the trust issue. If you go anonymous, people will not trust you, and they have a good reason to do so. If you expose your identity, the state boot crushes you. Complicated dilemma.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

The irony of the thing is, Leandro operation was so small, that any meaningful bribe would be orders of magnitude larger than the entire fund.

And I'm not even that sure a bribe would have worked (if this was a large enough fund). Everything was being done publicly. Unless you also manage to bribe most of the press not to publish anything, but how long can you hold? You'd need very deep pockets, what would make the fund not that worthy to investors due to its costs.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil

Oh but there was no corruption in this. At least if you define corruption as "not respecting the law", this was not corrupt at all. The law was strictly and actually efficiently applied. And that's the whole problem.

Contrary to popular belief, the main problem with countries like Brazil are not the corrupt officials. These actually give people some air to breath. They allow you, through some bribe, to avoid the worst.  It's precisely those who efficiently apply the laws, like this Otávio Yazbek, that fuck us all. (Of course, officials who ignore all crappy laws and let people live their lives in peace without requiring any bribe are preferable to the corrupt ones, but these are unfortunately quite rare...)

Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though.

[unclescrooge]

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though.

+1

Until we throw governments down we should be as anonymous as possible.