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cbeast
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July 28, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
 #21

Apple offers education discounts. Is that subsidized?
I've never heard of that. Do you have a link?

LOL

If you didn't keep this forum alive with donations I'd LMGTFY you...

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/findyourschool
Cool. But what does this have to do with the OP?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 28, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
 #22

http://xkcd.com/1049/

my only comment to ayn rand threads, read the mouse-over.

Never in the book(Atlas shrugged) does it say be an asshole to people, simple that people shouldn't be compelled to be nice and share against their will, plenty of room to be charitable for those with a heart.

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July 28, 2012, 11:57:51 AM
 #23

On the one hand there is a quite good storytelling skill, with mastery of the hero with a thousand faces as well as emphatic developement. On the other hand there is a very strong ugliness of spirit, appeal to man's (and woman, everyone is shit) baser instincts and social theories that generally only hold up to a mild breeze..

Disclaimer: I haven't done any research on Rand, below is merely what I get from reading some of her books a long time ago.

She has terrible writing skills, the books are filled with repetitive arguments which lack subtlety and philosophical insight, so far that I'm sure she didn't have enough depth to understand where Marx was coming from, which made her get stuck in the conventional moral dichotomy.

Having said that, I almost fully agree with her central point in Atlas Shrugged. The problem is, when faced with the evident challenge, her heroes would either melt away or turn to abusing the abusers, in effect becoming more like them. Which is also what I see in the real world. The reasons for optimism do not stand out in the book and the solution it alludes to isn't actually there. Essentially, the heroes all died and went to capitalist heaven, which is what will happen to all people who empathize with her heroes (including me). Either that, or the message is "hang in there bro"? Wink
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July 28, 2012, 12:22:04 PM
 #24

On the one hand there is a quite good storytelling skill, with mastery of the hero with a thousand faces as well as emphatic developement. On the other hand there is a very strong ugliness of spirit, appeal to man's (and woman, everyone is shit) baser instincts and social theories that generally only hold up to a mild breeze..

Disclaimer: I haven't done any research on Rand, below is merely what I get from reading some of her books a long time ago.

She has terrible writing skills, the books are filled with repetitive arguments which lack subtlety and philosophical insight, so far that I'm sure she didn't have enough depth to understand where Marx was coming from, which made her get stuck in the conventional moral dichotomy.

Having said that, I almost fully agree with her central point in Atlas Shrugged. The problem is, when faced with the evident challenge, her heroes would either melt away or turn to abusing the abusers, in effect becoming more like them. Which is also what I see in the real world. The reasons for optimism do not stand out in the book and the solution it alludes to isn't actually there. Essentially, the heroes all died and went to capitalist heaven, which is what will happen to all people who empathize with her heroes (including me). Either that, or the message is "hang in there bro"? Wink


I'll tell you where Marx came from, a wealthy family who married aristocracy, watched his family live in squalor, poverty and starvation (some of whom died as a result) and refused to work A SINGLE DAY IN HIS LIFE, and wrote a book about how unfair it was that other people who worked should share their hard earned gains with the likes of him.

His entire philosophy is anti-human, anything he didn't like he decided should be removed, family didn't like..BOOM, get rid of it.

Rand grew up and studied lived in the Soviet Union (before Stalin got ahold of the reigns and the shit REALLY hit the fan), she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

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July 28, 2012, 01:09:03 PM
 #25

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.
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July 28, 2012, 02:10:52 PM
 #26

I just find Rand's characters so endearing. It is so easy to feel their emotional journeys. We are so lucky to have had a writer with such a boundless understanding of the human condition. Such thoughtful lovers reveal what a romantic woman Rand must have been. The way she nurtures children to grow up to become people we can admire barely gives you a glimpse at her depth. Her love of animals will just make you weep with joy. Who has dry eyes at the end of her stories? And funny? Her timeless wit will have you rolling with laughter. I highly recommend an Ayn Rand film for a first date.

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July 28, 2012, 04:18:35 PM
 #27

btw, bitcoin is unbridled capitalism, that's why I'm here... why are you lefties here?

To show that unbridled capitalism in world of 7 million is the fastrack to picking the lowest hanging fruit until there are no more fruit to pick. The free market is the sum of all market participants, each with their own agendas, many, if not most, completely ignorant of what they're doing.
Bitcoin is not unbridled capitalism. Try running Bitcoin without the internet.

But my reply wasn't to make a statement about Bitcoin. It was a reply to the statement made that implied unbridled capitalism was desirable.
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July 28, 2012, 05:01:46 PM
 #28

Apple offers education discounts. Is that subsidized?
I've never heard of that. Do you have a link?

LOL

If you didn't keep this forum alive with donations I'd LMGTFY you...

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/findyourschool
Cool. But what does this have to do with the OP?

In real life, amazingly incredible machines are built by huge government run or at least subsidized enterprises. I didn't see any government try to take Steve Jobs' work away from him because it wasn't that amazing.

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cbeast
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July 28, 2012, 05:19:14 PM
 #29

It seems we are all in agreement that Bitcoin is not about Ayn Rand style capitalism. Bitcoin is about privacy and security in financial matters. Ayn Rand style business is about spoiled children not getting their way.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 30, 2012, 09:33:08 AM
 #30

The only way a government can survive is through taxation. Good luck taxing bitcoins baby, Im sure  a  new client with high transaction fees would go over smoothly  Cheesy


Bitcoins aren't themselves unbridled capitalism, but they do remove the bridles!

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July 30, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
 #31

Never in the book(Atlas shrugged) does it say be an asshole to people, simple that people shouldn't be compelled to be nice and share against their will, plenty of room to be charitable for those with a heart.
Forced benevolence isn't very benevolent.

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July 30, 2012, 03:38:25 PM
 #32

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.


Marx was important in the same way that Hitler was, by the damage he caused, his "philosophy" of people who have are criminals so take what you want from them is like heroin to undeveloped minds, pleasing and damaging.

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July 30, 2012, 03:56:33 PM
 #33

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.


Marx was important in the same way that Hitler was, by the damage he caused, his "philosophy" of people who have are criminals so take what you want from them is like heroin to undeveloped minds, pleasing and damaging.
Please don't compare Marx to Hitler. They are not the same at all! you could compare Stalin and Hitler if you really wanted to.

just because you don't agree with Marx's philosophical point of view don't compare him to a dictator that committed genocide. its a false argument called "ad hitler rum"(fuck the spelling.)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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July 30, 2012, 04:06:57 PM
 #34

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.


Marx was important in the same way that Hitler was, by the damage he caused, his "philosophy" of people who have are criminals so take what you want from them is like heroin to undeveloped minds, pleasing and damaging.
Please don't compare Marx to Hitler. They are not the same at all! you could compare Stalin and Hitler if you really wanted to.

just because you don't agree with Marx's philosophical point of view don't compare him to a dictator that committed genocide. its a false argument called "ad hitler rum"(fuck the spelling.)

Comparing him only in the damage done, in fact the followers of Marx have done far greater damage, death, destruction and robbery than anything Hitler ever accomplished. Moa killed between 40-80 million as a direct result of his policies, forgot how many Stalin killed (15 million?)

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July 30, 2012, 05:39:47 PM
 #35

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.


Marx was important in the same way that Hitler was, by the damage he caused, his "philosophy" of people who have are criminals so take what you want from them is like heroin to undeveloped minds, pleasing and damaging.
Please don't compare Marx to Hitler. They are not the same at all! you could compare Stalin and Hitler if you really wanted to.

just because you don't agree with Marx's philosophical point of view don't compare him to a dictator that committed genocide. its a false argument called "ad hitler rum"(fuck the spelling.)

Comparing him only in the damage done, in fact the followers of Marx have done far greater damage, death, destruction and robbery than anything Hitler ever accomplished. Moa killed between 40-80 million as a direct result of his policies, forgot how many Stalin killed (15 million?)
You do know that most people supporting Marx, do not support crazy dictators, right?
People in the soviet union, specifically Lenin, was not happy about Stalin becoming the new leader. Lenin did not trust Stalin.
I don't know much about Mao, but if i was a Marxist, i would not be happy about him.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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July 30, 2012, 11:30:56 PM
 #36

You do know that most people supporting Marx, do not support crazy dictators, right?
People in the soviet union, specifically Lenin, was not happy about Stalin becoming the new leader. Lenin did not trust Stalin.
I don't know much about Mao, but if i was a Marxist, i would not be happy about him.

The problem with Marxism is not it's stated goal (a classless, stateless society - not a bad direction to head), but in it's method of getting there. Making a stateless society through the state is like fucking for celibacy. No matter how hard you try, it's not going to work.

Here's an idea: If you want a classless, stateless society, why don't we work on the state first, then worry about class. If communism is so much better than market anarchy, then market anarchists would join communes in droves, and your classless society would have been achieved.

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July 31, 2012, 03:27:55 AM
 #37

she understood the depth of Marx more than he did himself.

That may very well be right if we are talking about people and personalities. But even though my views are closer to hers, I would label Marx as an important philosopher and Rand a mediocre writer. I hope it makes sense. I acknowledge that she was onto something but there is a long way to go for it to become a sound philosophy.


Marx was important in the same way that Hitler was, by the damage he caused, his "philosophy" of people who have are criminals so take what you want from them is like heroin to undeveloped minds, pleasing and damaging.
Please don't compare Marx to Hitler. They are not the same at all! you could compare Stalin and Hitler if you really wanted to.

just because you don't agree with Marx's philosophical point of view don't compare him to a dictator that committed genocide. its a false argument called "ad hitler rum"(fuck the spelling.)

Comparing him only in the damage done, in fact the followers of Marx have done far greater damage, death, destruction and robbery than anything Hitler ever accomplished. Moa killed between 40-80 million as a direct result of his policies, forgot how many Stalin killed (15 million?)
You do know that most people supporting Marx, do not support crazy dictators, right?
People in the soviet union, specifically Lenin, was not happy about Stalin becoming the new leader. Lenin did not trust Stalin.
I don't know much about Mao, but if i was a Marxist, i would not be happy about him.

Every attempt to impose Marxism (of any form) ultimately ends in a dictatorship, and Atlas Shrugged explains in great detail exactly why.

The philosophy of from each according to his ability, to each according to his need is entirely self defeating and requires force (i.e. dictatorship) to continue. Why would some who is a producer contiue to produce according to their ability when it's only taken off them and given to others according to their need. And the needs always rise (just look at feckless single mothers paid by the state in the UK and Ireland).

Here is an except that specifically addresses this problem http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=36055

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July 31, 2012, 03:43:50 AM
 #38

My wife loves this woman more than she does me at times. I might understand it one day.

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July 31, 2012, 04:15:38 AM
 #39

Hello everyone, thought I'd ask this here are bitcoin tends to attract all sorts of creazies (found my way here, didn't I?)
I've justn finished reading the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand ans as usual after reading her books, I'm confused. On the one hand there is a quite good storytelling skill, with mastery of the hero with a thousand faces as well as emphatic developement. On the other hand there is a very strong ugliness of spirit, appeal to man's (and woman, everyone is shit) baser instincts and social theories that generally only hold up to a mild breeze..

I'm not sure what I'm trying to discuss, but there should be enough fodder here for a few pages.

Oh yes, a question! Why do I like those books? I'm a dyed in the wool troskyite who has been that way for a very long time. Why do I like her style?b She's the moral equivalent of the root of negative one.


help?

When people ask me what I'm reading, I tell them a treatise about facist archistecture (the fountainhead) or motor design, how do we explain this shamefulk attraction to her work?


She was a sociopath and other sociopaths love her.

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July 31, 2012, 07:49:33 AM
 #40

Hello everyone, thought I'd ask this here are bitcoin tends to attract all sorts of creazies (found my way here, didn't I?)
I've justn finished reading the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand ans as usual after reading her books, I'm confused. On the one hand there is a quite good storytelling skill, with mastery of the hero with a thousand faces as well as emphatic developement. On the other hand there is a very strong ugliness of spirit, appeal to man's (and woman, everyone is shit) baser instincts and social theories that generally only hold up to a mild breeze..

I'm not sure what I'm trying to discuss, but there should be enough fodder here for a few pages.

Oh yes, a question! Why do I like those books? I'm a dyed in the wool troskyite who has been that way for a very long time. Why do I like her style?b She's the moral equivalent of the root of negative one.


help?

When people ask me what I'm reading, I tell them a treatise about facist archistecture (the fountainhead) or motor design, how do we explain this shamefulk attraction to her work?


She was a sociopath and other sociopaths love her.

She simply stated what was right, that people have a right to the wealth they produce, what they do with it is their business.

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