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Author Topic: The psychology of a con man - Zhou  (Read 6304 times)
allten
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July 27, 2012, 03:51:05 AM
 #1

http://goldengate.bbb.org/article/the-psychology-of-the-scam-34976

Great article.

Please Post portions that contradict with Zhou's personality/psychology.
Please Post portions that resonate with Zhou's personality/psychology.

Please try to exclude your bias and "give him the benefit of the doubt".

I post this because we can all benefit from understanding con psychology moving forward.

edit: fixed my poor grammar and changed to a more appropriate title.

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July 27, 2012, 03:55:53 AM
 #2

Psychology is a barbaric and corrupt practice, that entire article is just a load of BS.  Zhou is innocent, and is acting exactly like an innocent man should by doing everything he can to resolve this unfortunate issue.

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July 27, 2012, 05:10:12 AM
 #3

I'm sorry folks around here were ripped off, but that is the inevitable result of the free market beliefs so many people around here believe in, not the fault of an honest man like Zhou tong.  A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue.  Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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July 27, 2012, 05:22:33 AM
 #4

If Zhou really did this that would make him a opportunist not a con.

(If we assume that bitcoinica was a genuine operation, which it was, for a time imo, since it was profitable and sound)
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July 27, 2012, 05:47:53 AM
 #5

If Zhou really did this that would make him a opportunist not a con.

(If we assume that bitcoinica was a genuine operation, which it was, for a time imo, since it was profitable and sound)

Good point and I agree. I don't believe for a moment that he  started his venture to steal people's money.

If it was him, I believe it was his damaged ego that set him into con motion when the Consultancy was included
in the operation.
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July 27, 2012, 06:45:04 AM
 #6

I believe bitcoinica ran within its liquid means initially but as soon as they changed their service to include interest rates to encourage to actually leave BTC and USD on bitcoinica which would enable them to remain more liquid while pulling out more profit than they should.

At that point any bank run would crush bitcoinica and this is why I believe it all turned into one big scam before a bankrun could occur that would 100% confirm that liquidity of funds didnt actually exist and so would have marked Zhou Tong immediately as a scammer thus its much more convenient to have a bunch of failures to happen which would direct liquidity problems away from bitcoinica and only directed to so-called hacks occurring due to outragious security issues.

Basicly, they needed interest holders to keep BTC/USD on bitcoinica in order to fullfill their obligations to actual traders withdrawals.

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July 27, 2012, 08:35:50 AM
 #7

(If we assume that bitcoinica was a genuine operation, which it was, for a time imo, since it was profitable and sound)

How do you know?

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July 27, 2012, 08:53:11 AM
 #8

(If we assume that bitcoinica was a genuine operation, which it was, for a time imo, since it was profitable and sound)

How do you know?



I don't that is just my opinion.

I haven't checked out the math behind the concept myself at the time, I mean it could have been fallacious. I just consider it unlikely, but who knows...
I mainly follow the whole thing for dramatainment, not for the 9 BTC they owe me. Other people on the other hand don't they are genuinely concerned about it.
They will probably give you a concrete answer.
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July 27, 2012, 09:03:07 AM
 #9

They will probably give you a concrete answer.

Yeah I'm hoping for Tihan to answer: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1056708#msg1056708

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July 27, 2012, 09:25:05 AM
 #10

If Zhou really did this that would make him a opportunist not a con.

(If we assume that bitcoinica was a genuine operation, which it was, for a time imo, since it was profitable and sound)
He claimed it was both profitable and sound. From the leaked memos, it seems the new operators never managed to make the levels of profits that Zhoutong claimed he was making.

Unrelatedly, the article makes a really good point here:
Quote
The good news is that most con men get caught because they are so good at convincing people of mistruths that they con themselves into believing they won’t get caught. Over-confidence is what traps most of them. They over-reach their skills or underestimate the victim. They get sloppy or lazy, making bad assumptions after some successes. Conversely, they may become too ambitious, have too many “irons in the fire,” and trip themselves up. Some scams collapse under the weight of too many lies or are exposed when a third party identifies the pattern. Others crack wide open when a victim realizes that he’s been rooked and contacts authorities to complain.

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July 27, 2012, 09:29:29 AM
 #11

Quote
It's almost like it's in a psychologist's business interest to promote the idea of an "elusive phantom" lurking around every corner, who people will be extremely fearful of because they sound so realistic.

Exactly this.  Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?


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July 27, 2012, 10:25:24 AM
 #12

That's a reasonable outline, someone posted a message from Tihan questioning whether the earnings Zhou reported when selling Bitcoinica were real.

I believe bitcoinica ran within its liquid means initially but as soon as they changed their service to include interest rates to encourage to actually leave BTC and USD on bitcoinica which would enable them to remain more liquid while pulling out more profit than they should.

At that point any bank run would crush bitcoinica and this is why I believe it all turned into one big scam before a bankrun could occur that would 100% confirm that liquidity of funds didnt actually exist and so would have marked Zhou Tong immediately as a scammer thus its much more convenient to have a bunch of failures to happen which would direct liquidity problems away from bitcoinica and only directed to so-called hacks occurring due to outragious security issues.

Basicly, they needed interest holders to keep BTC/USD on bitcoinica in order to fullfill their obligations to actual traders withdrawals.

                                                                               
                
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                               ▄▌███▀▀+          ▄█▀   ▐█                      
                        ,▄▌███▀▀¬              ▓█▀     █▄                      
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                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
                        º▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓███   ▀█    █▌                              
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                            ▀███████▌  ▀█µ▀█ ██                                
                              ▀█████     ███▓█                                 
                                ▐███      ▀██Ñ                                 
                                            ▀                             

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July 27, 2012, 01:04:39 PM
 #13

We've all seen the evidence that Zhou Tong is guilty.  Even he admitted the evidence was correct, because he tried to deflect it to a "mysterious friend".

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July 27, 2012, 01:09:01 PM
 #14

I'd like to believe that Zhou Tong is innocent. However, having someone who clearly believes in magic and posting in favour of Zhou is making this belief very difficult for me. Rarity, can you refract your support for Zhou, please? It does more harm than good.

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July 27, 2012, 03:37:03 PM
 #15

Psychology is a barbaric and corrupt practice

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July 27, 2012, 03:37:22 PM
 #16

they're just words, folks.
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July 27, 2012, 04:08:54 PM
 #17

Quote from: Rarity
Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?

Quote from: Rarity
A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue.

LOL 

 Roll Eyes
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July 27, 2012, 04:17:31 PM
 #18

Quote from: Rarity
Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?

Quote from: Rarity
A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue.

LOL 

 Roll Eyes

Don't bother with this one. Comes to a forum about a decentralized, pseudonymous currency and suggests that the government taking full control of the block chain and issuing addresses to it's subjects as the best use case scenario.

I'm sorry, since when has the government been a bad thing to the majority of Bitcoin users? Bitcoin is not exempt from government regulation.
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July 27, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
 #19

As angry as I am at Zhou for not making proper database backups, I think he is being framed.

The question I have is why Zhou would state that the suspect who supposedly admitted guilt, Chen Jianhai, is a multi-millionaire. What evidence or reason to believe does Zhou have that Chen is a millionaire if he has never met Chen in person? And what type of "webshop" did Chen operate where Zhou used his stevejobs email address and password? How can he confirm that Chen Jianhai is his actual identity?

What's even more curious is who is Zhou's "friend" with the tens of thousands of LR. The timing of Zhou's sales of LR is extremely unfortunate, seems very possible that Zhou could be unwittingly (I agree with others, zhou is probably not that stupid if he were the thief) selling the stolen BTC for this "friend". Zhou really let himself be set-up in offering to do this "favor"...


Quote from the article in the OP
Quote
The good news is that most con men get caught because they are so good at convincing people of mistruths that they con themselves into believing they won’t get caught. Over-confidence is what traps most of them. They over-reach their skills or underestimate the victim. They get sloppy or lazy, making bad assumptions after some successes. Conversely, they may become too ambitious, have too many “irons in the fire,” and trip themselves up. Some scams collapse under the weight of too many lies or are exposed when a third party identifies the pattern. Others crack wide open when a victim realizes that he’s been rooked and contacts authorities to complain.
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July 27, 2012, 09:06:46 PM
 #20

So, if I'm all caught up on everything, the community is currently trying to decide which scenario is more likely?

1. The guy who has all of the tools, knowledge and access required to steal the bitcoins did it.

2. Actually, it was a non-english speaking Chinese man who makes a livelyhood of credit card fraud that had a "business" conversation with him online several years ago, in which he revealed that he was a millionaire, but also not very technically inclined. The subject of bitcoin came up in their discussions, and the Chinese millionaire not having heard of it, took this information to one of his more technical associates, who figured it all out for him, commited the crimes, and gave him all the money (he's very loyal). Afterward, he explained every step of what he did to the Chinese millionaire, in case his associate from long ago who's email account he used for the crime would call him up asking about it, he would be able to provide all of the details if pressured with the threat of "people on the internet are looking into this". As someone who makes millions in the credit card fraud industry, this is something that he is genuinely unprepared for.

Am I missing something?
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July 27, 2012, 09:10:57 PM
 #21


Am I missing something?

What about the relic collection?

Can it be woven into the story somehow? Like, the relics are being used to launder the stolen coins or something. Or maybe just as a setting for the final fight or so.



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July 27, 2012, 09:14:22 PM
 #22

I'm sorry folks around here were ripped off, but that is the inevitable result of the free market beliefs so many people around here believe in, not the fault of an honest man like Zhou tong.  A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue.  Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

"A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue"

Is this a joke? are you trolling?

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July 27, 2012, 09:18:08 PM
 #23

I'm sorry folks around here were ripped off, but that is the inevitable result of the free market beliefs so many people around here believe in, not the fault of an honest man like Zhou tong.  A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue.  Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

"A well regulated market with the government looking over our shoulder to keep everybody in line is the only way to solve this scamming issue"

Is this a joke? are you trolling?
Yes. Yes, she is as usual.

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July 27, 2012, 09:18:42 PM
 #24

So, if I'm all caught up on everything, the community is currently trying to decide which scenario is more likely?

1. The guy who has all of the tools, knowledge and access required to steal the bitcoins did it.

2. Actually, it was a non-english speaking Chinese man who makes a livelyhood of credit card fraud that had a "business" conversation with him online several years ago, in which he revealed that he was a millionaire, but also not very technically inclined. The subject of bitcoin came up in their discussions, and the Chinese millionaire not having heard of it, took this information to one of his more technical associates, who figured it all out for him, commited the crimes, and gave him all the money (he's very loyal). Afterward, he explained every step of what he did to the Chinese millionaire, in case his associate from long ago who's email account he used for the crime would call him up asking about it, he would be able to provide all of the details if pressured with the threat of "people on the internet are looking into this". As someone who makes millions in the credit card fraud industry, this is something that he is genuinely unprepared for.

Am I missing something?

The tooth fairy just told me that #2 is the correct answer.
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July 27, 2012, 10:02:16 PM
 #25

Quote
It's almost like it's in a psychologist's business interest to promote the idea of an "elusive phantom" lurking around every corner, who people will be extremely fearful of because they sound so realistic.

Exactly this.  Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?



By now everybody figured out this is a sock puppet. Give it up and get a lawyer.

Your paranoia is disturbing, your accusations against me are even more baseless than your witch hunt against Zhou Tong.  This is why we need government involved in this, every witch hunt will always find new victims and I guess I'm up!

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July 27, 2012, 10:09:20 PM
 #26


What about the relic collection?



Forgot about the relics!


Here is a transcript from their business conversations:

Zhou: Hello? Is this the professional credit card fraud artist I requested?
Chen: Yes, of course! How can I help you?
Zhou: How do I know you are any good?
Chen: Well, I am a millionaire who collects relics and speculates precious collections.
Zhou: Perfect, I'm interested in getting some help building some security into my website and payment processing.
Chen: Oh yes! I do quite a bit of business with that sort of thing. Well, not really. My associate does!
Zhou: Okay, what kind of advice can you offer me?
Chen: First, go ahead and sign up for MY website to check out how it works. Don't worry about using a unique password either.
Zhou: Sounds good!
<MINUTES LATER>
Zhou: Okay, so we should use our Mt. Gox API key as the password on our Lastpass account?
Chen: Yes, that is very good, because it has a lot of random characters.
Zhou: And two factor authenification is totally unecessary?
Chen: Yes, certainly if you have such a long password like that.
Zhou: Awesome, thanks! You've been a great help!
Chen: Any time, buddy!
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July 27, 2012, 10:35:28 PM
 #27


What about the relic collection?



Forgot about the relics!


Awesome!

Can we still have a final battle in the private museum?


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July 27, 2012, 10:46:30 PM
 #28

Quote
It's almost like it's in a psychologist's business interest to promote the idea of an "elusive phantom" lurking around every corner, who people will be extremely fearful of because they sound so realistic.

Exactly this.  Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?



By now everybody figured out this is a sock puppet. Give it up and get a lawyer.

Your paranoia is disturbing, your accusations against me are even more baseless than your witch hunt against Zhou Tong.  This is why we need government involved in this, every witch hunt will always find new victims and I guess I'm up!

That's right, because governments never engage in witch hunts and always act in the best interest of the people they serve.   Cheesy

Why is someone with your views even interested in Bitcoin?  It is largely about moving away from such oppressive and corrupt centralized systems.


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July 27, 2012, 11:04:47 PM
 #29

Quote
It's almost like it's in a psychologist's business interest to promote the idea of an "elusive phantom" lurking around every corner, who people will be extremely fearful of because they sound so realistic.

Exactly this.  Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?



By now everybody figured out this is a sock puppet. Give it up and get a lawyer.

Your paranoia is disturbing, your accusations against me are even more baseless than your witch hunt against Zhou Tong.  This is why we need government involved in this, every witch hunt will always find new victims and I guess I'm up!

That's right, because governments never engage in witch hunts and always act in the best interest of the people they serve.   Cheesy

Why is someone with your views even interested in Bitcoin?  It is largely about moving away from such oppressive and corrupt centralized systems.




As a socialist/communist and a member of a spiritual group that has had to battle tons of spurious attacks from government I am very familiar with the concept of government witch hunts.  No government is perfect and we should always work to improve them, however the safeguards they provide are a huge step up from the unrestrained mob justice you get in a situation like this.  

I think you would be surprised how many other leftists are flocking to bitcoin.  The concept of being able to track every transaction, as opposed to the total anonymity of cash, is a huge benefit if you are trying to exercise control over the market.  Now, you don't actually manipulate the Bitcoin itself, you just regulate it's use within your market by setting up whitelists for approved wallets.  Any blacklisted or unlisted coins are sent to the government for redistribution before they can enter the market.  That all seems a bit off topic for this thread though, but as I've said before it's very like Satoshi is actually a leftist and not any sort of libertarian at all.

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July 27, 2012, 11:09:59 PM
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It's almost like it's in a psychologist's business interest to promote the idea of an "elusive phantom" lurking around every corner, who people will be extremely fearful of because they sound so realistic.

Exactly this.  Why trust someone who is just trying to make money off your fears and a false promise of feeling better when there are better, more real solutions out there?



By now everybody figured out this is a sock puppet. Give it up and get a lawyer.

Your paranoia is disturbing, your accusations against me are even more baseless than your witch hunt against Zhou Tong.  This is why we need government involved in this, every witch hunt will always find new victims and I guess I'm up!

That's right, because governments never engage in witch hunts and always act in the best interest of the people they serve.   Cheesy

Why is someone with your views even interested in Bitcoin?  It is largely about moving away from such oppressive and corrupt centralized systems.




As a socialist/communist and a member of a spiritual group that has had to battle tons of spurious attacks from government I am very familiar with the concept of government witch hunts.  No government is perfect and we should always work to improve them, however the safeguards they provide are a huge step up from the unrestrained mob justice you get in a situation like this.  

I think you would be surprised how many other leftists are flocking to bitcoin.  The concept of being able to track every transaction, as opposed to the total anonymity of cash, is a huge benefit if you are trying to exercise control over the market.  Now, you don't actually manipulate the Bitcoin itself, you just regulate it's use within your market by setting up whitelists for approved wallets.  Any blacklisted or unlisted coins are sent to the government for redistribution before they can enter the market.  That all seems a bit off topic for this thread though, but as I've said before it's very like Satoshi is actually a leftist and not any sort of libertarian at all.

You have no clue who Satoshi is or what "he" believes in. I have never said this to anyone but, please, Shut The Fuck Up! Log off and relogin as Zhoutong and tell us more stories about your classes and your relic collector friend. In the meantime, trackdown is on FULL FORCE! Get ready!

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July 27, 2012, 11:13:39 PM
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Nobody knows who he is, as far as I'm aware.  Given the product he created though I'm comfortable with my assumption.  A true libertarian would stick with gold not an electronic currency maintained by socialized mining cooperatives.  

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July 27, 2012, 11:33:17 PM
 #32

^ But in practice most people are part of the pools where the gains are socialized and distributed equally because they recognize the benefits of such cooperation and equitable distribution!  Don't you see, our WHOLE economy could be like that!

Quote
Next point I would like to discuss is that a government, which can control something like the Bitcoin block chain with any degree of success, would have to be a world government with totalitarian control.

No, you aren't actually controlling the blockchain.  The idea is you whitelist some bitcoins you control and divide and distribute them equally among the population.  Any coin which enters a non-whitelisted wallet is out of the system and no longer valid currency.  This way if your bitcoins were stolen, for example, the hacker would have no use for them in your economy since any valid wallet would have a name attached to it.   For another example, any time a drug dealer was caught you could trace back to all his customers and have law enforcement contact them and send them to treatment.

Quote
I wonder how many loyal subjects will adhere to the regulated block chain as opposed to the free market block chain that will certainly continue to exist.

Businesses who engaged in such activity would be severely punished.

Quote
As far as Satoshi's political leanings, why are Bitcoin addresses pseudonymous?

Because he knew government would be handling the identifications in their natural capacity as regulators, there was no need to build it into the system.

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July 27, 2012, 11:53:37 PM
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You mean where the pool operators get a to take a cut from every miner that joins them. How is that fair and equal?

They administrate the system and deserve compensation for it.

Quote
The non-whitelisted addresses may be out of your system, but they aren't out of my system. I will continue to secure and process those transactions.

It doesn't matter if they aren't out of your system as long as you don't try and spend them back into the white system, which you can't do.  Any citizen who ended up paying into a non-whitelisted address could be questioned about their reasons as well.  That is the beauty, it's a lot harder to have informal black markets when you don't have cash.  Transaction logs can keep any bad money from being laundered back into the system, which is not the case now and allows the black market to survive as a parasite on the true market.  

Quote
Oh, so he was just lazy, leaving it up to someone else to take care of that. His creation depends on the government.

It's not laziness any more than it's laziness that paper companies don't print cash, it's not their job.  They are just supplying the raw material for the government to work with.

Quote
Do you think he was supporting the chancellor (government) with this comment?

It reads to me as a lament that the government was forced again to rescue the market from its own irrational actions.  We would not need bailouts if we nationalized the banks.


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July 28, 2012, 12:18:17 AM
 #34

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Bravo, we will have you as a free market advocate before we are done!

Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.  They should be more like the mining cooperatives were most of the profit is going back to the labor force.

Quote
So you will end up with a white system where the regulators come out on top, and a lucrative black market which they are unable to touch. Who needs "cash" when I can use any form of accounting I desire? Don't fiat notes have serial numbers? Where are the account logs that prevent bad money being laundered now? Congratulations, you've recreated the system we living in.

The laundering of cash makes you unable to track it, which is the point of the process. With my system,  no matter what you do with the money, the government can see where it goes, it has no way to make it back to a legitimate business free and clear.  

If somebody robs cash Bill A from a bank, when I find it again I can confirm it was Bill A with the serial numbers, but I have no idea where it has been and what seemingly legitimate business laundered it.  

The thrill of being a black market millionaire isn't quite as great when you can't use your money to buy a house or a car or a plane ticket.

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Why do I know about this project then? It seems the government should be able to polish it to a fine shine before releasing it on the public.

We're on our way, the current rise of Bitcoin and the growing pains are just the first stage of the natural evolution towards centralization and regulation.

 
Quote
I thought the banks were already nationalized. Isn't fiat created and controlled by the government? If the banks are screwing up, and you control the money, wouldn't a fix be "easy as pie"?

The banks and insurance companies that collapsed were corporate entities in the financial industries, not government run central banks.


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July 28, 2012, 01:07:27 AM
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Hmm.  Seems I had a post deleted from here calling Rarity out as a sockpuppet.  That's interesting.

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July 28, 2012, 02:08:11 AM
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Rarity just strikes me as an immature soccer mom with the inability to use actual logic and reason. "The gubmint must protect us!!!1!"

Grow up.

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July 28, 2012, 02:11:41 AM
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I'm a dude, and no kids yet, do like football.   Grin

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July 28, 2012, 02:55:50 AM
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I wonder what the government will do when a chain gets created with the sole intention of rewarding hitmen who kill beuraucrats who step out of line ?

I call it Anarcoin.

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July 28, 2012, 03:52:34 AM
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Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

As someone with multiple degrees in psychology and mental health and with experience in a multitude of mental health settings, I would love to hear you explain this one, particularly the words 'phony,' 'fraudulent,' and 'scam.'

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July 28, 2012, 04:01:36 AM
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Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

As someone with multiple degrees in psychology and mental health and with experience in a multitude of mental health settings, I would love to hear you explain this one, particularly the words 'phony,' 'fraudulent,' and 'scam.'

Scientology  Smiley

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July 28, 2012, 04:31:24 AM
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Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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July 28, 2012, 04:48:25 AM
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Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

Just shut up.

There would be no reward for taking enormous risks in the marketplace.



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July 28, 2012, 04:58:23 AM
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Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

1 - This is a thread about the psychology of a con man, so you are off the line.

2 - Your source is a biased news channel with no concern to accurate statistical data...

 Cool

Could you stop to throw the pony's manure in the fan and keep for yourself, please?
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July 28, 2012, 05:21:17 AM
 #44

Quote
Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

Just shut up.

There would be no reward for taking enormous risks in the marketplace.

Sure there would be, people work to the mutual benefit of themselves and their company and the rest of the country.  Our current system encourages excessive risk which is why it collapsed and required the government to save it.

Quote
1 - This is a thread about the psychology of a con man, so you are off the line.

I pointed out this was off topic before but folks seemed to want to peruse it.  *shrug*.

Quote
2 - Your source is a biased news channel with no concern to accurate statistical data...

Okay, what is the correct number?



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July 28, 2012, 05:56:08 AM
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So, if I'm all caught up on everything, the community is currently trying to decide which scenario is more likely?

1. The guy who has all of the tools, knowledge and access required to steal the bitcoins did it.

2. Actually, it was a non-english speaking Chinese man who makes a livelyhood of credit card fraud that had a "business" conversation with him online several years ago, in which he revealed that he was a millionaire, but also not very technically inclined. The subject of bitcoin came up in their discussions, and the Chinese millionaire not having heard of it, took this information to one of his more technical associates, who figured it all out for him, commited the crimes, and gave him all the money (he's very loyal). Afterward, he explained every step of what he did to the Chinese millionaire, in case his associate from long ago who's email account he used for the crime would call him up asking about it, he would be able to provide all of the details if pressured with the threat of "people on the internet are looking into this". As someone who makes millions in the credit card fraud industry, this is something that he is genuinely unprepared for.

Am I missing something?

The "magic" 69 minutes is all I can think of. Anybody else?
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July 28, 2012, 06:17:00 AM
 #46

Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

As someone with multiple degrees in psychology and mental health and with experience in a multitude of mental health settings, I would love to hear you explain this one, particularly the words 'phony,' 'fraudulent,' and 'scam.'

Scientology  Smiley

Lol.  Oh.

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July 28, 2012, 06:20:55 AM
 #47

Believing in an article about a phony, fraudulent science is just falling for one more scam.

As someone with multiple degrees in psychology and mental health and with experience in a multitude of mental health settings, I would love to hear you explain this one, particularly the words 'phony,' 'fraudulent,' and 'scam.'

Scientology  Smiley

Lol.  Oh.
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July 28, 2012, 06:48:55 AM
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Psychology is a barbaric and corrupt practice

+1

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July 28, 2012, 06:50:41 AM
 #49

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Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

Just shut up.

There would be no reward for taking enormous risks in the marketplace.

Sure there would be, people work to the mutual benefit of themselves and their company and the rest of the country.  Our current system encourages excessive risk which is why it collapsed and required the government to save it.

Quote
1 - This is a thread about the psychology of a con man, so you are off the line.

I pointed out this was off topic before but folks seemed to want to peruse it.  *shrug*.

Quote
2 - Your source is a biased news channel with no concern to accurate statistical data...

Okay, what is the correct number?




Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.



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July 28, 2012, 07:12:42 AM
 #50

Psychology is a barbaric and corrupt practice

+1

-2

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July 28, 2012, 07:18:58 AM
 #51

Quote
Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

Just shut up.

There would be no reward for taking enormous risks in the marketplace.

Sure there would be, people work to the mutual benefit of themselves and their company and the rest of the country.  Our current system encourages excessive risk which is why it collapsed and required the government to save it.

Quote
1 - This is a thread about the psychology of a con man, so you are off the line.

I pointed out this was off topic before but folks seemed to want to peruse it.  *shrug*.

Quote
2 - Your source is a biased news channel with no concern to accurate statistical data...

Okay, what is the correct number?




Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.

Slaves.

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July 28, 2012, 07:27:37 AM
 #52

Quote
Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.
-
 what  are you talking about?

Well for instance the average CEO in America makes 380 times what the average workers do.  I think it would be fair to legislatively limit that to 2 or 3 times what the average worker makes, or if we really have to stretch up to ten times more for the sake of compromise okay.  You have a livable minimum wage and a generous maximum wage so that high achievers still have something to drive for but they can do it without leaving behind people in poverty or bankruptcy from medical bills.

Just shut up.

There would be no reward for taking enormous risks in the marketplace.

Sure there would be, people work to the mutual benefit of themselves and their company and the rest of the country.  Our current system encourages excessive risk which is why it collapsed and required the government to save it.

Quote
1 - This is a thread about the psychology of a con man, so you are off the line.

I pointed out this was off topic before but folks seemed to want to peruse it.  *shrug*.

Quote
2 - Your source is a biased news channel with no concern to accurate statistical data...

Okay, what is the correct number?




Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.

Slaves.

I think you meant Orion Slave Girls.
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July 28, 2012, 11:11:19 AM
 #53


Quote
Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.

Scotty, beam us up.

Quote
According to the NCCS Table Wizard, there are currently over 1.5 million nonprofit organizations in the United States.

http://foundationcenter.org/getstarted/faqs/html/howmany.html

Keep in mind however, we aren't talking about a world where everyone is non-profit.  People who still want ten times as much income as everyone else, or wherever you set the max pay, will still have that to drive for and it will encourage them to build new companies and work hard.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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July 28, 2012, 12:08:07 PM
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Bravo, we will have you as a free market advocate before we are done!

Who said I'm not?  I just believe that market needs to be very strictly regulated and people should not take unfair levels of compensation, as many top executives and business owners do today.  They should be more like the mining cooperatives were most of the profit is going back to the labor force.


While I think you had a couple of important points earlier about trying to avoid "mob justice", you have to bear in mind that a lot of people on this forum live under a system whose government is utterly evil, corrupt, "gone beyond the point of no return", routinely dishes out its own brutality against dissidents (and to scare others), and it also annoys the shit out of the entire world by being a massive warmongering asshole-bully on the world stage. And yet, they lull their people to sleep by pretending to be kind and caring, "there for the people", "protecting you from the bad guys" and all that crap.

(Just in case anyone had doubts, I was talking about the US of A!)

So, when you suggest things like strict government regulation, or getting government to enforce laws the old-fashioned way, understandably that idea does not go down too well.

And I'm sure Marxism looked utterly fantastic on paper, which I guess would explain why a huge group of countries enthusiastically implemented Communism across Eastern Europe all the way out to China and killed millions of people in the process (and set their civilisations back by decades)... What's a few million when it's sure to create everlasting world peace, love and harmony?

In practice it just doesn't work. People are naturally lazy and the free market/Capitalism deals with that perfectly: there's always pressure to do enough work to survive, and extra productivity gets rewarded with extra desires being met. Centrally planned societies break that system so that you're either working like a dog because some bureaucrat decided to send workers elsewhere, or you're "working" 2 hours a day instead of being productive where you're really needed. So you get massive under-employment, low production levels, and of course the government has to be corrupt and dictatorial to keep the system running.

Quote
But in practice most people are part of the pools where the gains are socialized and distributed equally because they recognize the benefits of such cooperation and equitable distribution!  Don't you see, our WHOLE economy could be like that!

No, people join mining pools because of greed and trying to reduce risk. When faced with a choice:
1)Wait X months or years for a 50btc reward, and have low confidence about exactly when a reward will arrive, despite steady effort.
2)Get a steady trickle of bitcoins coming in right now.
Most people would pay a little bit extra and choose 2. People work together when it works for them. This is different from saying that people 'must' work together for some centrally planned purpose.
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July 28, 2012, 03:00:46 PM
 #55

^ But in practice most people are part of the pools where the gains are socialized and distributed equally because they recognize the benefits of such cooperation and equitable distribution!  Don't you see, our WHOLE economy could be like that!

The gains per hash might be distributed equally amongst pool members, but the hashes are not. Depending on the technology available to the different members of the pool they will be generating hashes at different rates and at different joules per hash. The large FPGA miner might be the equivalent or your real-life CEO and the CPU miner the equivalent of your real-life slave laborer working for minimum wage (with an even larger disparity). Our economy IS already working like a pool.
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July 28, 2012, 06:27:13 PM
 #56


Quote
Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.

Scotty, beam us up.

Quote
According to the NCCS Table Wizard, there are currently over 1.5 million nonprofit organizations in the United States.

http://foundationcenter.org/getstarted/faqs/html/howmany.html

Keep in mind however, we aren't talking about a world where everyone is non-profit.  People who still want ten times as much income as everyone else, or wherever you set the max pay, will still have that to drive for and it will encourage them to build new companies and work hard.


Charity you are talking about centralized control. You are talking about the total and complete opposite of what bitcoin is all about. You are trolling whether you know it or not. This is not a forum that will take kindly to your collectivist ideals. You are advocating for the initiation violent of force. Setting a max limit on someones income just like setting a minimum wage, requires a third party to enforce their opinion with the threat of violence. I appreciate what you are trying to achieve (a more fair and equitable world). Free market thinkers like myself and probably many others on this forum have found that the best way to achieve more fair and equitable interactions between people is to allow them enter into voluntary agreements with one another for mutual benifit. Without a third party imposing, by threat of force their views, regulations, rules, etc. Party A does business with party B and everyone else minds their own business. If party A earns 10,000,000 BTC per year then she is obviously creating amazing value for others.
TL;DR interfering with the free market = initiating violent force

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July 28, 2012, 08:32:14 PM
 #57

TL;DR interfering with the free market = initiating violent force

Rarity doesn't seem to have a problem with that...

Quote
I wonder how many loyal subjects will adhere to the regulated block chain as opposed to the free market block chain that will certainly continue to exist.

Businesses who engaged in such activity would be severely punished.


Not just punished but severely punished.   

And no doubt it wouldn't be just those who failed to obey all the proper laws and regulations who would
suffer, as hir views on psychology seem to suggest.  Anyone deemed to be abnormal ( the government
being the sole arbiter no doubt ) would perhaps be considered to be possessed by demons and simply
exterminated...  no need for things like psychology and psychologists.

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July 28, 2012, 10:06:09 PM
 #58

Innocent people will fight and fight and fight to defend their name.   That's why the police ask you the same questions over and over - they know that if you are guilty, you will eventually give up and admit it.   There is psychology behind this, but I was unable to Google the correct term to find it - maybe someone else will have more luck?

Now let's look at Zhou - he made up his big story and when no one (save for an ignorant few) believed it, he quickly stopped posting.  Didn't try to defend himself at all.

Does anyone know his real name yet?

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July 28, 2012, 11:23:46 PM
 #59

Innocent people will fight and fight and fight to defend their name.   That's why the police ask you the same questions over and over - they know that if you are guilty, you will eventually give up and admit it.   There is psychology behind this, but I was unable to Google the correct term to find it - maybe someone else will have more luck?

Now let's look at Zhou - he made up his big story and when no one (save for an ignorant few) believed it, he quickly stopped posting.  Didn't try to defend himself at all.

Does anyone know his real name yet?
He's definitely still fighting, so this point isn't helping your case. Check his post history.
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July 28, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
 #60

Innocent people will fight and fight and fight to defend their name.   That's why the police ask you the same questions over and over - they know that if you are guilty, you will eventually give up and admit it.   There is psychology behind this, but I was unable to Google the correct term to find it - maybe someone else will have more luck?

Now let's look at Zhou - he made up his big story and when no one (save for an ignorant few) believed it, he quickly stopped posting.  Didn't try to defend himself at all.

Does anyone know his real name yet?
He's definitely still fighting, so this point isn't helping your case. Check his post history.

My case is tight as it is, thank you.  He started posting again 10 minutes after I wrote this.  Smiley

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July 29, 2012, 01:58:13 AM
 #61


Quote
Who the hell is going to do that - work for the mutual benefit of everyone?  This isn't the starship enterprise.

Scotty, beam us up.

Quote
According to the NCCS Table Wizard, there are currently over 1.5 million nonprofit organizations in the United States.

http://foundationcenter.org/getstarted/faqs/html/howmany.html

Keep in mind however, we aren't talking about a world where everyone is non-profit.  People who still want ten times as much income as everyone else, or wherever you set the max pay, will still have that to drive for and it will encourage them to build new companies and work hard.


Charity you are talking about centralized control. You are talking about the total and complete opposite of what bitcoin is all about. You are trolling whether you know it or not. This is not a forum that will take kindly to your collectivist ideals. You are advocating for the initiation violent of force. Setting a max limit on someones income just like setting a minimum wage, requires a third party to enforce their opinion with the threat of violence. I appreciate what you are trying to achieve (a more fair and equitable world). Free market thinkers like myself and probably many others on this forum have found that the best way to achieve more fair and equitable interactions between people is to allow them enter into voluntary agreements with one another for mutual benifit. Without a third party imposing, by threat of force their views, regulations, rules, etc. Party A does business with party B and everyone else minds their own business. If party A earns 10,000,000 BTC per year then she is obviously creating amazing value for others.
TL;DR interfering with the free market = initiating violent force

The starving children around the world sympathies with your utopian free market ideals, I'm sure, but I'm more concerned with the practical matter of making sure they have food.  If it means a rich man has to have a little less luxury, that's fine by me.

Quote

Not just punished but severely punished.   

And no doubt it wouldn't be just those who failed to obey all the proper laws and regulations who would
suffer, as hir views on psychology seem to suggest.

Absolutely.  We would already have punishments so severe if we had the tracking ability BitCoin provides for us with cash.  That ability protects the innocent so you can be sure they aren't accused of a financial crime they did not commit.

Quote
Democracy is already the 'dictatorship of the proletariat', you can't tell me the 99% aren't the ones deciding elections... yet, they have decided to compromise with the bourgeoisie, the 1%... because it is in the self-interests of the 99% and they know it!  The socialist experiment is undone.

Bitcoin is the magic that changes all this and makes real leftist government possible.  It's the best thing that has ever happened to socialists, even if they don't realize it yet.  There are non anonymous political donations or obfuscated lobbying ties or blackmail when all this is public and recorded.  Those are the tools the 1% uses to dominate politics.


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July 29, 2012, 02:58:23 AM
 #62

We give them food when we need to, and wealth to invest in their own communities so we don't need to anymore.  It's hard to do that when the top 10% accounts for 85% of the wealth.  There is plenty to go around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth

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July 29, 2012, 03:54:17 AM
 #63

This thread appears to have been heavily derailed, but in response to the last few posts, think about this:



Offering free food to nascent developing nations means that the local farmers have no business. No one is buying their food (what little they have) because they can just eat UN rice or whatever for free.

Because there is no money in making or selling food, no one does it.

The infrastructure and supply chains required for food production are never developed.

There is no way to make or get food locally.

The cycle of starvation and dependence continues.


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July 29, 2012, 04:02:40 AM
 #64

Which is why you both invest in the community and stave off starvation at the same time.  Even so, there is enough food in the world to feed everybody already produced, distribute it and you might have some problems down the line if you don't invest in the community right but otherwise people starve.  It's not worth protecting some yacht for a rich guy to let people die.

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July 29, 2012, 04:10:54 AM
 #65

I believe bitcoinica ran within its liquid means initially but as soon as they changed their service to include interest rates to encourage to actually leave BTC and USD on bitcoinica which would enable them to remain more liquid while pulling out more profit than they should.

At that point any bank run would crush bitcoinica and this is why I believe it all turned into one big scam before a bankrun could occur that would 100% confirm that liquidity of funds didnt actually exist and so would have marked Zhou Tong immediately as a scammer thus its much more convenient to have a bunch of failures to happen which would direct liquidity problems away from bitcoinica and only directed to so-called hacks occurring due to outragious security issues.

Basicly, they needed interest holders to keep BTC/USD on bitcoinica in order to fullfill their obligations to actual traders withdrawals.
The only problem with this theory is that everyone would have to have been in on it. If Bitcoinica had obligations that exceeded its assets, there would have been nothing for Zhou to sell to the consultancy. So every person involved in Bitcoinica before and after ownership transferred would have to have been in on the scam.

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July 29, 2012, 04:21:09 AM
 #66

Which is why you both invest in the community and stave off starvation at the same time.  Even so, there is enough food in the world to feed everybody already produced, distribute it and you might have some problems down the line if you don't invest in the community right but otherwise people starve.  It's not worth protecting some yacht for a rich guy to let people die.

Rarity, I think you are ignoring the side effects of charity. The only way to "stave off starvation" in the mean time also entails destroying the success of any up-and-coming agricultural or comestible industry.

While there is enough food in the world to feed everyone, this may not always be the case, and it is not desirable for poor nations to be reliant on the charity of others. It is much better if they can produce their own food, or at least be self-sufficient.

And yes, people will starve. Humans have been starving since humans existed. This is (or at least was) a fact of life, and it is necessary to push food production technology to a point where starvation is no longer a problem.

This is a fairly straightforward issue of incentive. If there is an incentive to create the facilities required to avoid starvation (the incentive being starvation), those facilities will be created. If there is no incentive (because the food is being shipped in from charitable wealthy nations), the facilities will not be created, and those people will be at starvation risk forever.

You are also reducing the idea down to the strawman situation of "Rich people being rich vs poor people eating food". Those two things are not in opposition in any way, and temporarily feeding people with the money of the rich will not make the poor any better off in the long run. (By the way, the amount of money that all of the world's rich people have saved up is not very large compared to the world's GDP. That is to say that using up all that money will not actually do very much.)

You place too much importance on people not dying of starvation right now, and not enough importance on the future.

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July 29, 2012, 04:39:05 AM
 #67

I am not ignoring the side effects of charity.  They are the side effects of giving someone a fish.  This is about rescuing them from starvation and teaching them to fish. 

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July 29, 2012, 05:33:48 AM
 #68

Wow. Talk about a hijacked thread. Wish I could moderate my own thread.
If posting here, please reread the original OP and stay on topic and ignore all the sock puppets.

Here's another nugget:
Another disclosure:

I detected two vulnerabilities in ExchB (hope you guys still remember this exchange) last year and I returned the money I "stole" from them actively after the hack.

I also wanted to test whether Mt. Gox had the same problem, so I created the account using my stevejobs email. I didn't want to use my own account for this testing. And Mt. Gox was secure enough that I failed to exploit.

Actively hacking other sites and steeling money if possible but then boasts of giving it back.

From the article in the OP:

Quote
Some con men describe a “rush” from closing the deal. They know they are doing something wrong, often illegal, and the success of that activity combined with the physical stresses and rewards in the brain become addictive. The chemicals released in the brain from the pursuit and capture of the cash becomes its own reward; the game becomes more than just a way to get money. Other con men have been known to use their work as a way to massage a fragile ego: Every time they get away with stealing money, they’ve proven to themselves that they are smarter than the authorities and their victims.

So, it can be more that just money that drives a pathological liar.
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July 29, 2012, 05:56:58 AM
 #69

Sorry Angry

Is Zhuo Tong a Crooked little bastard?: Discuss

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July 29, 2012, 06:00:01 AM
 #70

Wow. Talk about a hijacked thread. Wish I could moderate my own thread.
If posting here, please reread the original OP and stay on topic and ignore all the sock puppets.

Here's another nugget:
Another disclosure:

I detected two vulnerabilities in ExchB (hope you guys still remember this exchange) last year and I returned the money I "stole" from them actively after the hack.

I also wanted to test whether Mt. Gox had the same problem, so I created the account using my stevejobs email. I didn't want to use my own account for this testing. And Mt. Gox was secure enough that I failed to exploit.

Actively hacking other sites and steeling money if possible but then boasts of giving it back.

From the article in the OP:

Quote
Some con men describe a “rush” from closing the deal. They know they are doing something wrong, often illegal, and the success of that activity combined with the physical stresses and rewards in the brain become addictive. The chemicals released in the brain from the pursuit and capture of the cash becomes its own reward; the game becomes more than just a way to get money. Other con men have been known to use their work as a way to massage a fragile ego: Every time they get away with stealing money, they’ve proven to themselves that they are smarter than the authorities and their victims.

So, it can be more that just money that drives a pathological liar.

You can.

Really? How can i do that?
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July 29, 2012, 06:21:42 AM
 #71

I am not ignoring the side effects of charity.  They are the side effects of giving someone a fish.  This is about rescuing them from starvation and teaching them to fish. 

Good luck with that.


You know, I'm having a real hard time telling if you're trolling. All of your posts seem to demonstrate that you are precisely the kind of person who would not like Bitcoin at all... Either that or you don't understand it in the slightest.

I think you would fit in better at http://www.freicoin.org.

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July 29, 2012, 06:30:04 AM
 #72

Quote
All of your posts seem to demonstrate that you are precisely the kind of person who would not like Bitcoin at all

I'm just ahead of the game.  In a few years there won't be any libertarians around here once they realize what Bitcoin is really meant to accomplish.  Of course, a few years later they will come back when they realize the great things socialism and communism have to offer once paired with a superior currency.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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July 29, 2012, 06:39:22 AM
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Quote
All of your posts seem to demonstrate that you are precisely the kind of person who would not like Bitcoin at all

I'm just ahead of the game.  In a few years there won't be any libertarians around here once they realize what Bitcoin is really meant to accomplish.  Of course, a few years later they will come back when they realize the great things socialism and communism have to offer once paired with a superior currency.


I'm leaning strongly towards "trolling".

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July 29, 2012, 06:58:08 AM
 #74

Wow. Talk about a hijacked thread. Wish I could moderate my own thread.
You can.

Really? How can i do that?

Lock the thread (you have the ability). Then contact a mod and ask them to remove the off topic or offensive posts or make a statement after the lock that the thread will reopen at a given time when posters return to the OP topic.

Yes, otherwise you end up with this sort of thing : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.0

It consists of half a page that's on topic. the following 25 and a half pages have nothing to do with the OP, and consist of bets, insults, thinly veiled threats, and some slander. All fun stuff, but nothing to do with the OP. I think you should do what CBH suggests if you don't want this to degenerate similarly, what with all the degenerates posting here.

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July 29, 2012, 08:12:37 AM
 #75

http://www.echinacities.com/expat-corner/illogical-or-tactical-lies-in-chinese-culture.html

Says it all  Angry

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