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Author Topic: What is environmentalism, really?  (Read 7633 times)
FirstAscent
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August 05, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
 #21

Most of the posts here indicate that most of you think environmentalism is akin to the idea of "putting a brick in your toilet tank." And maybe that's why some of you (TheBitcoinChemist, perhaps?) think environmentalism is crap. That's too bad, because environmentalism really is an aggregation of all of the following:

- The study of island biogeography
- The study of trophic cascades
- Stopping deforestation
- Declarations of umbrella species
- Climate research
- Dam removal
- Proactive business practices, like those of Patagonia
- NGOs in cooperation with governments at an international level for conservation
- The application of ecological economics
- Regulations (yes, regulations)

Now, with regard to the "brick in your toilet tank", it's explained starting at 6:55 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEnOcJpVA88
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Tim Johnson
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August 05, 2012, 06:44:23 PM
 #22

Rainforests were created by man centuries ago.
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August 05, 2012, 06:46:39 PM
 #23

Rainforests were created by man centuries ago.
?

Honestly, how is this relevant, even ignoring the fact that it is completely false?
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August 05, 2012, 06:55:56 PM
 #24

Rainforests were created by man centuries ago.
?

Honestly, how is this relevant, even ignoring the fact that it is completely false?

If it's true, it means man isn't a complete retard that needs to be put on a tyrant's leash.
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August 05, 2012, 06:59:43 PM
 #25

Rainforests were created by man centuries ago.
?

Honestly, how is this relevant, even ignoring the fact that it is completely false?

If it's true, it means man isn't a complete retard that needs to be put on a tyrant's leash.
If it is true, we are effectively destroying a resource that past generations must have toiled to create. Perhaps, we should mine limestone from the Pyramids? Maybe create electric wires from the Statue of Liberty?
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August 05, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
 #26

Rainforests were created by man centuries ago.
?

Honestly, how is this relevant, even ignoring the fact that it is completely false?

If it's true, it means man isn't a complete retard that needs to be put on a tyrant's leash.
Perhaps, we should mine limestone from the Pyramids? Maybe create electric wires from the Statue of Liberty?
I don't see a problem.

If you have a problem, maybe you should buy these monuments out and protect them.
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August 05, 2012, 07:19:18 PM
 #27

I think we're all getting the pleasure of witnessing willful ignorance in action in the last few posts here.
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August 06, 2012, 04:09:17 AM
 #28

Most of the posts here indicate that most of you think environmentalism is akin to the idea of "putting a brick in your toilet tank." And maybe that's why some of you (TheBitcoinChemist, perhaps?) think environmentalism is crap. That's too bad, because environmentalism really is an aggregation of all of the following:

- The study of island biogeography
- The study of trophic cascades
- Stopping deforestation
- Declarations of umbrella species
- Climate research
- Dam removal
- Proactive business practices, like those of Patagonia
- NGOs in cooperation with governments at an international level for conservation
- The application of ecological economics
- Regulations (yes, regulations)

Now, with regard to the "brick in your toilet tank", it's explained starting at 6:55 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEnOcJpVA88

Regarding dam removal:

Trailer of Damnation: http://video.patagonia.com/video/DamNation-Trailer

Essay: http://www.patagonia.com/us/patagonia.go?assetid=75082
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August 08, 2012, 03:19:23 AM
 #29

[removed as to not detract from the focus of this topic.]
FirstAscent
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August 08, 2012, 08:01:12 PM
 #30

This looks to be a great book on ecosystem services:

http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Services-Societal-Dependence-Ecosystems/dp/1559634766/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324452097&sr=1-1

I haven't read it (yet). It was recommended by MAHB: http://mahb.stanford.edu/
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August 08, 2012, 08:15:32 PM
 #31

I fear our biggest challenge is to get a commitment from the world. The changes we must make to live another 500 years on Earth may be more than people are willing to do. Recycling, buying a hybrid car, those things are like dripping water on a house fire. We would need to stop burning anything for at least a few hundred years. No cars, no heating your home, no cooking.  Even then it would continue to hotter for centuries.

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August 08, 2012, 09:28:50 PM
 #32

We would need to stop burning anything for at least a few hundred years. No cars, no heating your home, no cooking.  Even then it would continue to hotter for centuries.


Expecially since those activities are not the predominate causes of climate changes. 
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August 08, 2012, 09:50:08 PM
 #33

We would need to stop burning anything for at least a few hundred years. No cars, no heating your home, no cooking.  Even then it would continue to hotter for centuries.


Expecially since those activities are not the predominate causes of climate changes. 

You know what is?


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August 08, 2012, 09:51:17 PM
 #34

We would need to stop burning anything for at least a few hundred years. No cars, no heating your home, no cooking.  Even then it would continue to hotter for centuries.


Expecially since those activities are not the predominate causes of climate changes. 

You know what is?


This wouldn't cause it to "continue to hotter" for centuries, though. Maybe it will in millions of years when it becomes significantly more intense, but not in centuries.
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August 08, 2012, 10:03:32 PM
 #35



http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/42006-harvard-astrophysicist-sunspot-activity-correlates-to-global-climate

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August 08, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
 #36

We would need to stop burning anything for at least a few hundred years. No cars, no heating your home, no cooking.  Even then it would continue to hotter for centuries.


Expecially since those activities are not the predominate causes of climate changes. 

You know what is?


This wouldn't cause it to "continue to hotter" for centuries, though. Maybe it will in millions of years when it becomes significantly more intense, but not in centuries.

Dude, the Sun's output varies over an 11 year cycle, and a longer ~300 year cycle; and those are the two that we are aware of.  The Sun occilates, and it takes less than a 1% variance to swing the entire planet from an ice age into the Medieval Warm Period.  You have heard of that, correct?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

While the claims on Wikipedia are that the MWP were not as warm as the modern era, the facts say something different.  For example, it's a known fact that there were grape vineyards & wineries north of London in Britain, with legacy streets still named "Vine Street" that harken back to that age, while grapes won't grow in those same regions today.  Also, north of Canada is a wide expanse of islands hidden in the permanent ice beyond the arctic circle; the roots of trees have been found on many of those islands, hundreds of miles from where trees grow today.  The Norse settled Greenland during the MWP, and for decades children were taught in school that it was named as a fraud in order to get settlers to join the founders.  In reality, it would have been pretty green in the southern end of Greenland during the MWP, and we now know that those settlers fared pretty well for generations on grassfed sheep before the Little Ice Age slowly killed off their grasslands & sheep and drove them into the sea in order to survive.
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August 09, 2012, 03:11:09 AM
 #37

I'm not sure if arguing with you is productive. Certainly others have done so already, and your refusal to change your point of view indicates that you'll probably deflect any arguments I might make. I tried debating a creationist on evolution once, and it's really the same problem. If you genuinely don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, that's your opinion. I believe such an opinion to be excessively ignorant.

Back on topic: Cessation of those activities might be going too far. What we really need is for governments to stop subsidizing oil. Between 2002 and 2008, 36+ billion dollars were directly used to increase oil (okay, total fossil fuel) profits and production. Even worse, if taxpayers didn't pay that money in the first place, it would more than offset the tiny increase in energy prices. Plus, think about the resulting bonus to alternative energy if the government stops sponsoring the companies that try to kill it.
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August 09, 2012, 03:46:06 AM
 #38

Hey guys,

This thread is about environmentalism, and that certainly includes climate change. However, as I've pointed out in an earlier post, the bulk of environmentalism is scientific study and proactive conservation (as opposed to turning in plastic bottles behind the supermarket), and as such, denying anthropogenic climate change with material sourced from the latest libertarian websites really doesn't qualify as climate science, and by extension, doesn't qualify as science in any respectable way.

If you guys truly want to debate this issue, feel free to start a thread about it. Before doing so, I would earnestly suggest both of you get up to speed on the following topics so we have a baseline to start with:

- Climate change induced precipitation patterns and how it will affect agriculture
- Milankovitch cycles and ice age patterns
- Ice albedo feedback loops
- The Oregon Petition, Frederick Seitz, and various libertarian documents masquerading as science

For this thread, I'd prefer we stick to real science. Thanks.
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August 09, 2012, 03:51:43 AM
 #39

denying anthropogenic climate change with material sourced from the latest libertarian websites

http://www.tgdaily.com/about
Quote
Launched in 1998, TG Daily is a leading news site online today. We strive to provide technology enthusiasts edgy, compelling, and independent news on a variety of topics: science, entertainment, business, and, of course, technology. Tapping into the talents of our independent, impartial and trustworthy human contributors, we publish dozens of new items everyday.

Just 'cause I link to it, don't make it libertarian. Wink

And you'll note, that was a Harvard Scientist. Not a C4SS staffer.

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August 09, 2012, 04:11:41 AM
 #40

denying anthropogenic climate change with material sourced from the latest libertarian websites

http://www.tgdaily.com/about
Quote
Launched in 1998, TG Daily is a leading news site online today. We strive to provide technology enthusiasts edgy, compelling, and independent news on a variety of topics: science, entertainment, business, and, of course, technology. Tapping into the talents of our independent, impartial and trustworthy human contributors, we publish dozens of new items everyday.

Just 'cause I link to it, don't make it libertarian. Wink

And you'll note, that was a Harvard Scientist. Not a C4SS staffer.

Sure. You'll even find that Richard Lindzen is an MIT professor. There are bad apples in every organization.

As for your paper, let's analyze Dr. Willie Soon:

- He's associated with the Marshall Institute, a libertarian think tank founded by Frederick Seitz (I mentioned him above).
- He has largely been funded by the oil industry
- All grants to him since 2002 have been from oil and coal interests
- He's a speaker for the Heartland Institute

I have made a statement in several threads over the past year that every time (and I mean every single time) someone posts an article relating to denying anthropogenic climate change, it's a trivial matter to tie the author to libertarian think tanks and Big Oil. Please read this post I made in June very carefully: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83931.msg981373#msg981373

Oh, and regarding Willie Soon, all you need do is google his name. Really, I thought you'd be more careful before posting such material.

Carry on.
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