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Author Topic: SwCpoker.eu | No Banking, Only Bitcoin | Bitcoin Poker 2.0 LIVE NOW!  (Read 274564 times)
RoKSeouljah420
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September 25, 2017, 04:45:29 AM
 #3141

Alright guys, had a couple drinks - but feel the need for a serious rant.  Take it for what it's worth.  

Pre-Amaya Stars (pre-black friday) didn't have the best VIP program - or even close to it really.  
It was a decent vip program.  When they launched the super-nova elite thing it was inspiring.  I can't remember the exact details but ... bust your ass for an entire year - like, put in 1.5 mill + hands of $50+NL or play some seemingly ridiculous amount of HUSNGs... and get a  $30-50k USD bonus. In the end,  this equals a solid year of 55+ hours per week of grinding hard.

So anyway...my point is that Stars did not -  and never has had an amazing VIP program.  There were plenty of great deals that have come and gone since they were on top.

They (stars) had one thing.

Seals used to have the same thing. (thanks to micon...i think?)

It was the most important thing.

They were FUCKING HONEST.

When a player had a complaint, they responded because - well - they had nothing to hide. Get your shit together SWC, the fact that you haven't responded to marlais' comments is fucking pathetic.

Shame on you!

TL;DR(s):

-Pre-Amaya Stars VIP program is irrelevant - they had integrity.  Integrity > All Else.  

-Seals doesn't currently seem to have much of ^^integrity.

-The 'new' seals admin are fucking pathetic.  Seriously.  You guys are fucking things up big time.  Knock it off please.

-Betcoin.ag is so incredibly scummy and awful - they don't deserve to even be mentioned in this argument.


I'll clear this up a bit for you, since the alcohol seems to be doing most of the talking Wink

SNE (Supernova Elite) required 1 million VPP, not to be confused with FPP's. At the time when I was grinding stars, it was actually about 1.2 million hands of 200NL to reach this, and playing 24 tables you could average around 1600 hands/hr mixing in some fast ones also.

The reason they had the best VIP system is because SNE was actually worth over $100k USD in rakeback and bonuses (like milestones) , but that was assuming you only ever bought the $4000 bonus (best value not counting concierge) using FPP's.

Also Stars used dealt rake. This means that you would accrue FPP's for any hand that you were dealt into and saw a flop, regardless of whether or not you paid rake. Compared to other sites like FTP at the time, and what SWC uses now, which is a form of contributed rake. I.e., you only get back a portion of rake you actually generate yourself. That was probably the main thing that made their system better, you could literally fold and still make thousands of dollars.

While I understand why most recreational players, or players who never made it to SN or SNE, wouldn't agree with my above statement, I assure you that it was 100% completely accurate circa 2011 and pre-Black Friday, albeit a moot point since Amaya doesn't even offer the SN or SNE program anymore.

My overarching point was that comparing shitty Bitcoin poker sites, that seem to be apparently run by a handful of guys at the best of times, to a multi billion (with a b) dollar generating, well-established site is is unrealistic and unfair. (Stars got the majority of their market share when PartyPoker went public and willingly left the US.) That being said, it doesn't mean that SwC couldn't be run much better. Hell, it wouldn't even take them that much time, energy, or resources to make some very simple improvements to their site, and I agree they should perhaps start with transparency.

Now, for an update on my BCC saga, we're moving into day 5 of waiting for my BCC. I got this email from SwC support this morning.

11:42 AM (12 hours ago)

to me

Hi XXXXXXXXXX,

We are processing bch withdrawals later today.

Thank you for playing SwC Poker


Needless to say, I never received my BCC, so I was compelled to contact support yet once again.

Hi, we must have varying definitions of today, because where I reside (planet Earth) today means, and I quote Merriam-Webster, on or for this day; at the present time.Seeing as it is now:

Time (UTC)   Mon Sep 25 00:42:24 2017 UTC

I can only assume that this was an oversight on your part, and that the 'today' you referenced in your above email wasn't actually based on the time which your website employs. I hope this was the case, and that you are in fact not still failing to payout my 88.11 BCC, which you are unlawfully withholding, by the way. All this compounded on top of the fact that your website falsely states BCC claims will be paid out in 48 hours. No, I truly hope indeed that this is not the case.


To which I received this amazing response:

We understand you are upset.

BCH payments will be made shortly.

We have added 1 chip to your account in recognition of your long time play at SwC Poker.



And no, that 1 is not a typo. I'l be sending the 1 chip back, as it's more of an insult than a bribe. I just want the BCC that is rightfully mine they are withholding, for apparently no good reason, and for far longer than the original timetable that their site advertises. Sad

-BttB

Edit - Ended up donating the chip to one of the few decent regs left on the site.

Edit 2 - Took 5 and a half days but finally received my BCC. At least seals is consistent, although unfortunately consistently behind, when it comes to timetables.
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stingers
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September 25, 2017, 05:03:58 AM
 #3142

How the hell is collusion checked on SWC? And can someone tell me that where can we report the incidences of collusion? I feel that I have sufficient proof of players involving in Poker collusion. Will the player who has lost a certain amount be re em-bruised ?
RoKSeouljah420
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September 25, 2017, 05:21:16 AM
 #3143

How the hell is collusion checked on SWC? And can someone tell me that where can we report the incidences of collusion? I feel that I have sufficient proof of players involving in Poker collusion. Will the player who has lost a certain amount be re em-bruised ?

Most sites won't tell you their methods of checking for collusion, because as more methods become public knowledge, they become more easily compromised.

You can write into support@swcpoker.eu, but I wouldn't expect a timely response or much action. In the rare event that they do agree collusion has taken place, affected players will be refunded, although that too may take an exceedingly long time.

I can think back about a year or so ago when there was a particular Big O player that was found guilty of collusion and/or other unsavory activities and was banned from the site. Played a few thousand hands with him, and possibly other of his accounts, but I was never issued a refund, although I think some other players might have been.

-BttB
fernando_redondo
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September 26, 2017, 07:26:22 PM
 #3144

SWCpoker made some change about the rake. As a midstakes player, I greatly appreciate the new cap at limit games and chinese poker. Thanks a lot.
SwC_Poker
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September 26, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
 #3145

SwC Poker Lowers Rake

The rake has been lowered to reflect our mission of offering low rake Bitcoin poker games. The new schedule can be viewed here:
https://swcpoker.eu/swcpoker-faq/#rake

We received feedback from long time players wishing to start more mixed games. To show them we are serious about catering to our players and staying competitive in the market, we have lowered the rake.


TwitchySeal
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September 26, 2017, 08:37:00 PM
 #3146

(snipping just to make this more readable, not trying to take anything out of context)
-snip-
-snip-

While I understand why most recreational players, or players who never made it to SN or SNE, wouldn't agree with my above statement, I assure you that it was 100% completely accurate circa 2011 and pre-Black Friday, albeit a moot point since Amaya doesn't even offer the SN or SNE program anymore.

I just have a different definition of "better VIP program" I guess.

SNE was worth 100k+.  That's one way to look at it.  But really it was just ~65% rakeback, right?  There were and still are sites that offer more than that.  

The difference is Stars was a better, bigger, more trusted site that was much easier/possible to put in high volume.

(I made SNE once, the second year it was possible, have earned almost 100k krill on seals before Micon left, and have played over 10m hands online since 2005)

My overarching point was that comparing shitty Bitcoin poker sites, that seem to be apparently run by a handful of guys at the best of times, to a multi billion (with a b) dollar generating, well-established site is is unrealistic and unfair. (Stars got the majority of their market share when PartyPoker went public and willingly left the US.) That being said, it doesn't mean that SwC couldn't be run much better. Hell, it wouldn't even take them that much time, energy, or resources to make some very simple improvements to their site, and I agree they should perhaps start with transparency.

-snip-

I couldn't agree with you more.

If a site like seals or Betcoin decided to hold themselves to the same standards and level of transparency as regulated US sites (where I play mostly now), they would have way more success, benefiting from the upside of regulations without having to give up the freedom and profit that is currently being sucked from their regulated counterparts by the government.  





SwC Poker Lowers Rake

The rake has been lowered to reflect our mission of offering low rake Bitcoin poker games. The new schedule can be viewed here:
https://swcpoker.eu/swcpoker-faq/#rake

We received feedback from long time players wishing to start more mixed games. To show them we are serious about catering to our players and staying competitive in the market, we have lowered the rake.



Hey, SwC_Poker,

Do everyone a favor, address the issues brought up recently by marlias.  

Quit going down this dark path.
SwC_Poker
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September 27, 2017, 10:41:55 PM
 #3147

Regarding questions brought up by the community, we offer the following responses:

  • We are not an open-source project and do not provide transparency in areas we deem to be a security risk.
  • Regarding hand histories, in the future players will be able to request them. Currently we cannot support it. Today it takes too much developer time to satisfy individual requests. In the future we will build a system to satisfy requests quickly. Our client has the option to save all hands locally to your machine. We understand this does not satisfy past requests.
  • Several players with particular hardware and operating system combinations have significantly more connection issues than the rest of the player base. We have asked these players to either not play, or "play at their own risk," until we have released our new client software. This does not affect the entire player base.
  • The developer resources of SwC Poker are focused on building our new client software & improving our platform. Our new client software will eliminate pain points and provide a solid platform to develop new features. We recognize that SwC Poker has areas that must be improved if we are to compete in the marketplace.
  • SwC Poker takes an attitude similar to Satoshi when he built Bitcoin. We will write software ourselves so we don't need to trust outside sources. This makes for a long development process and (currently) the inability to satisfy all requests.

DarkDays
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September 28, 2017, 07:31:26 AM
 #3148

SwC Poker takes an attitude similar to Satoshi when he built Bitcoin. We will write software ourselves so we don't need to trust outside sources.

But you rented the Mavens software and then bought the Grid software.  You didn't write either of those.  Your entire history as a site has been trusting outside sources.
eking657
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September 28, 2017, 10:53:21 AM
 #3149

SwC Poker takes an attitude similar to Satoshi when he built Bitcoin. We will write software ourselves so we don't need to trust outside sources.

But you rented the Mavens software and then bought the Grid software.  You didn't write either of those.  Your entire history as a site has been trusting outside sources.

I for one think that its a huge mistake for small (even medium) sized companies undergoing proprietary software development. What is the point?

Online poker has been around for almost 20 years. There are thousands of software providers for poker for reasonable prices and have been upgraded, and debugged hundreds of times. By all means if you have features you'd like to add, its always good having your own dev team for small projects, and UI/designers to make your brand unique. But to develop a software from scratch? Hope you got a lot of money, time and patience for that. I don't see the point.

UNLESS -  you are doing something completely different! Like a provably fair poker room or casino, or a new game. Something that would require you to start from scratch. However, from what Ive seen on SWC there is nothing unique about the software, its not bad, just def. not unique.

Hope the problems get sorted out. I wasn't affected by the recent rake issue, but I do jump on their from time to time for a little HU or tourneys.
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September 28, 2017, 03:22:18 PM
 #3150

I for one think that its a huge mistake for small (even medium) sized companies undergoing proprietary software development. What is the point?

Online poker has been around for almost 20 years. There are thousands of software providers for poker for reasonable prices and have been upgraded, and debugged hundreds of times. By all means if you have features you'd like to add, its always good having your own dev team for small projects, and UI/designers to make your brand unique. But to develop a software from scratch? Hope you got a lot of money, time and patience for that. I don't see the point.

UNLESS -  you are doing something completely different! Like a provably fair poker room or casino, or a new game. Something that would require you to start from scratch. However, from what Ive seen on SWC there is nothing unique about the software, its not bad, just def. not unique.

Hope the problems get sorted out. I wasn't affected by the recent rake issue, but I do jump on their from time to time for a little HU or tourneys.

I'm confused. Isn't your site developing its own software? Or are you just skinning something like Enterra?

Most of the actually good software owners aren't interested in licensing. WPN has been willing to, and maybe that would be an ok option, but it hasn't gone very well in BTC-land.
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September 28, 2017, 03:37:48 PM
 #3151

I for one think that its a huge mistake for small (even medium) sized companies undergoing proprietary software development. What is the point?

Online poker has been around for almost 20 years. There are thousands of software providers for poker for reasonable prices and have been upgraded, and debugged hundreds of times. By all means if you have features you'd like to add, its always good having your own dev team for small projects, and UI/designers to make your brand unique. But to develop a software from scratch? Hope you got a lot of money, time and patience for that. I don't see the point.

UNLESS -  you are doing something completely different! Like a provably fair poker room or casino, or a new game. Something that would require you to start from scratch. However, from what Ive seen on SWC there is nothing unique about the software, its not bad, just def. not unique.

Hope the problems get sorted out. I wasn't affected by the recent rake issue, but I do jump on their from time to time for a little HU or tourneys.

I'm confused. Isn't your site developing its own software? Or are you just skinning something like Enterra?

Most of the actually good software owners aren't interested in licensing. WPN has been willing to, and maybe that would be an ok option, but it hasn't gone very well in BTC-land.


I rather not talk about my software on the SWC thread, rather if you have any questions regarding my brand you can post it on my thread or send me a PM and I'll happily answer any of your concerns.
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October 03, 2017, 09:07:57 AM
 #3152

Regarding questions brought up by the community, we offer the following responses:

  • We are not an open-source project and do not provide transparency in areas we deem to be a security risk.
  • Regarding hand histories, in the future players will be able to request them. Currently we cannot support it. Today it takes too much developer time to satisfy individual requests. In the future we will build a system to satisfy requests quickly. Our client has the option to save all hands locally to your machine. We understand this does not satisfy past requests.
  • Several players with particular hardware and operating system combinations have significantly more connection issues than the rest of the player base. We have asked these players to either not play, or "play at their own risk," until we have released our new client software. This does not affect the entire player base.
  • The developer resources of SwC Poker are focused on building our new client software & improving our platform. Our new client software will eliminate pain points and provide a solid platform to develop new features. We recognize that SwC Poker has areas that must be improved if we are to compete in the marketplace.
  • SwC Poker takes an attitude similar to Satoshi when he built Bitcoin. We will write software ourselves so we don't need to trust outside sources. This makes for a long development process and (currently) the inability to satisfy all requests.

Your dev team must be the slowest in history. Why haven't there been any improvements or releases in so long? When was the last one?

SwC Poker and Satoshi should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Your attitude has been pathetic not limited to taking months to admit to taking player funds illegitimately, your tournament director wishing death upon players and using foul language to interact with some of the site's top customers, and last but not least scrapping any incentive to choose to play on the site by ending Krillrolls and leaderboards.

The management of SwC since Micon was out of the picture has been nothing short of inept.
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October 03, 2017, 07:14:24 PM
 #3153

SwC Poker commissioned three signature designs.

We will be running a signature campaign when we release our new software.

For now, players can show us their support and affiliates can change the link to their unique code to promote while they post.


Code for Hero/Legendary
Code:
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    ▀███████[color=black]███████████████████▀[/color]
[b][size=5pt][color=transparent][size=4pt].[/size][/color]P O K E R[/size][/b]
[/color][/size][/font][/url][/td]

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[url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=white][size=9pt][glow=#004321,2,300][size=5pt][color=transparent].[/color][/size]Bitcoin Poker 2.0 [color=#e6b420]▮[/color] No Banking, Only Bitcoin[size=5pt][color=transparent].[/color][/size][/glow][/size][/color][/b][/font][/url]
[size=6pt][color=#004321]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#E6B420]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#004321]▬[/color][/size][/center][/td]

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[td][center][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=#004321][size=7pt][color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Krill Rakeback[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Mixed Games[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]OFC[color=#e6b420]❱[/color][/size][/color][/b][/font][/url][/center][/td]

[td][center][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=#004321][size=7pt][color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badeucy[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badacey[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Big O[color=#e6b420]❱[/color][/size][/color][/b][/font][/url][/center][/td]

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Code for Sr.
Code:
[center][table][tr][td][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=monospace][size=2px][color=#004321]     ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
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[b][size=5pt][color=transparent][size=4pt].[/size][/color]P O K E R[/size][/b]
[/color][/size][/font][/url][/td]

[td][center][size=6pt][color=#004321]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#E6B420]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#004321]▬[/color][/size]
[size=2px][color=transparent].[/color][/size]
[url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=#004321][size=9pt]Bitcoin Poker 2.0 [color=#e6b420]▮[/color] No Banking, Only Bitcoin[/size][/color][/b][/font][/url]
[size=6pt][color=#004321]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#E6B420]▬[color=#D7AC20]▬[color=#C9A520]▬[color=#BA9E20]▬[color=#AC9720]▬[color=#9E9020]▬[color=#8F8920]▬[color=#818220]▬[color=#737B20]▬[color=#647420]▬[color=#566D20]▬[color=#476620]▬[color=#395F20]▬[color=#2B5820]▬[color=#1C5120]▬[color=#0E4A20]▬[color=#004321]▬[/color][/size][/center][/td]

[td][size=7px][color=#004321]▛


▙[/color][/size][/td]

[td][center][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=#004321][size=7pt][color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Krill Rakeback[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Mixed Games[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]OFC[color=#e6b420]❱[/color][/size][/color][/b][/font][/url][/center][/td]

[td][center][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][font=Arial][b][color=#004321][size=7pt][color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badeucy[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badacey[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]
[color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Big O[color=#e6b420]❱[/color][/size][/color][/b][/font][/url][/center][/td]

[td][size=7px][color=#004321]▜


▟[/color][/size][/td]
[/tr][/table][/center]

Code for Full
Code:
[center][url=https://swcpoker.eu/][color=#004321][[/color][font=Arial][b][color=#e6b420]SwC POKER[/color][/b][/font][color=#004321]][/color][color=#e6b420]▬▬[/color][font=Arial][b][color=#004321]Bitcoin Poker 2.0 [color=#e6b420]▮[/color] No Banking, Only Bitcoin[/color][/b][/font][color=#e6b420]▬▬[/color][color=#004321][[/color][font=Arial][b][color=#e6b420]SwC POKER[/color][/b][/font][color=#004321]][/color]
[color=#004321]▬[/color][color=#0C4920]▬[/color][color=#194F20]▬[/color][color=#265520]▬[/color][color=#335C20]▬[/color][color=#3F6220]▬[/color][color=#4C6820]▬[/color][color=#596E20]▬[/color][color=#667520]▬[/color][color=#737B20]▬[/color][color=#7F8120]▬[/color][color=#8C8820]▬[/color][color=#998E20]▬[/color][color=#A69420]▬[/color][color=#B29A20]▬[/color][color=#BFA120]▬[/color][color=#CCA720]▬[/color][color=#D9AD20]▬[/color][color=#E5B31F]▬[/color][color=#D9AD20]▬[/color][color=#CCA720]▬[/color][color=#BFA120]▬[/color][color=#B29A20]▬[/color][color=#A69420]▬[/color][color=#998E20]▬[/color][color=#8C8820]▬[/color][color=#7F8120]▬[/color][color=#737B20]▬[/color][color=#667520]▬[/color][color=#596E20]▬[/color][color=#4C6820]▬[/color][color=#3F6220]▬[/color][color=#335C20]▬[/color][color=#265520]▬[/color][color=#194F20]▬[/color][color=#0C4920]▬[/color][color=#014321]▬[/color]
[font=Arial][b][color=#004321][color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Krill Rakeback[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]  [color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Mixed Games[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]  [color=#e6b420]❰[/color]OFC[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]  [color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Big O[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]  [color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badeucy[color=#e6b420]❱[/color]  [color=#e6b420]❰[/color]Badacey[color=#e6b420]❱[/color][/color][/b][/font][/url][/center]


DarkDays
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October 03, 2017, 10:58:08 PM
 #3154

SWC tackling the important topics I see.
betudontbet
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October 03, 2017, 11:05:21 PM
 #3155

Will be looking foward for your signature campaign, hope you first fix them problems you have with the current players before making any new change ... or doing campaigns wich means giving out some money.
TwitchySeal
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October 03, 2017, 11:54:16 PM
 #3156

This is a sad day. 

Super disappointed to see Seals running a sig campaign.

Going to be much easier to ignore legit issues now with all the inevitable shilly banter.

What would Micon say...smh
Zero_Cloo
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October 04, 2017, 12:26:57 PM
 #3157

You spelled Badeucy wrong lol.
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October 04, 2017, 04:58:58 PM
 #3158

You spelled Badeucy wrong lol.

Grin

Now fixed in the code Cool

We did not pull developers off the client software to make signatures, and we are not running a signature campaign at this time. We had our signatures designed to give affiliates an additional vector to promote and for future player facing promotions like a signature campaign which may include free chips, tournament tickets and extra krill for displaying it.

DarkDays
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October 05, 2017, 01:51:47 AM
 #3159

You spelled Badeucy wrong lol.

Grin

Now fixed in the code Cool

We did not pull developers off the client software to make signatures, and we are not running a signature campaign at this time. We had our signatures designed to give affiliates an additional vector to promote and for future player facing promotions like a signature campaign which may include free chips, tournament tickets and extra krill for displaying it.

Why are you concentrating on this instead of the multitude of issues raised? 
betudontbet
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October 05, 2017, 02:35:01 AM
 #3160

You spelled Badeucy wrong lol.

Grin

Now fixed in the code Cool

We did not pull developers off the client software to make signatures, and we are not running a signature campaign at this time. We had our signatures designed to give affiliates an additional vector to promote and for future player facing promotions like a signature campaign which may include free chips, tournament tickets and extra krill for displaying it.

Why are you concentrating on this instead of the multitude of issues raised? 

Ditto, I'm currently looking to deposit in this room, I been checking rooms on the forum to play but this one as betcoin has major issues and they aren't resolved yet, from been trusted by many to untrusted by many more.
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