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Author Topic: Your cryptocoins were stolen and you called the police? WTF? Are you serious?  (Read 6081 times)
JoelKatz
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July 29, 2012, 04:18:25 AM
 #61

What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?
Two things:

1) They can't immunize their employees from retaliation the way a State can. The employees of a private company are fully personally responsible for their actions. Private companies have no right or ability to insulate their employees from the consequences of their actions.

2) When not socially accepted, the use of force is generally a losing proposition because all of civilized society will rebel against it. It's not like the company can keep secret their identity. The rest of society will refuse to do business with them, boycott their customers, and so on. (Unless the majority wants to go back to having a government, in which case, no system can stop a majority of force from forcing its way on everyone else.)

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Bitcoin Oz
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July 29, 2012, 04:58:21 AM
 #62

Do mercenaries and hitmen accept bitcoins ?

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July 29, 2012, 06:05:04 AM
 #63

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).



What makes you think Private companies won't commit the same violations to civil liberties?

They are controlled by money at the end of the day you know...

That's the perception of libertarian anarchism that kept me a libertarian minarchist for so long. There are no private companies with their own militia divisions paid for with "company profits", or any other sort of market-controlled police nonsense. There is merely reputation economics. Insurance on wide scale. You do something bad, everyone knows about it, and thus rates for any and all contracts rise accordingly. You do something really bad, like kill someone, you face a choice. Voluntary punishment, or exile: no one will do business with you.

And just as free market libertarians stole the term "libertarian" from the socialist libertarians, anarchist libertarians are stealing the term from minarchist libertarians. There is no "necessary evil". All states, by their nature, must grow and become tyrannies eventually. The growth of the US federal government, from the most restrained and controlled state in history, to now an enormous empire-building leviathan, is the perfect example of the failure of minarchist libertarianism.
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July 29, 2012, 06:08:47 AM
 #64

Bitcoin was created by anarchists and for anarchists. Go read up on the cypherpunks. Read the cyphernomicron. What do you think this is, some left/right san fran techie circlejerk to see who can make the coolest looking mining rig? This is a revolution. The 'politics and ideology' part is unavoidable.

So what exactly is the problem with reporting the theft then? Even in an anarchist society there would be private security companies doing the job of the police (minus the many violations of civil liberties that's becoming common these days).


Heh.  You mean like Blackwater in Iraq?  I suppose that the meaning of 'civil liberties' could eventually be managed down to a point where it is OK to randomly shoot at cars for the fun of it and run down people who are close enough to the street that it is doable without swerving to much.

But back to the original point, I think it is appropriate (currently) to enlist the support of law enforcement on the basis of there being a general computer related crime.  If the crime resulted in a demonstrable loss (and as long as exchanges are operational and legal this should be easy to demonstrate with some precision) then there is a basis for a fair judgement against loss.  Plenty of my tax dollars go toward fighting various crimes including computer related ones...as long as the thief is not a well connected person like Jon Corzine that is.


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July 29, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
 #65

I think theres some misunderstanding about "peace officers" and "law enforcement officers". Peace officers are a necessary part of civil society to deal with crimes while "leo's" enforce the arbitrary dictates of the state.

It sucks that police officers today have to combine both duties rather than being strictly used for crime fighting.

Kluge
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July 29, 2012, 06:17:50 AM
 #66

What the Hell were we talking about again?

Oh - why call the police? That's an easy one. Private companies are often unwilling to provide information or do an internal investigation without a court order, which pretty much necessitates involving the police. So.... why involve the police? - I want my $5k worth of BTC back. That's not an endorsement of government, just simple greed and common sense.

Don't mix your coins someone said isn't legal
ninjarobot
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July 29, 2012, 10:00:40 AM
 #67

Here's an easy way to remember which term to use: libertarians have jobs and take showers, anarchists just mooch and smell bad.

That is funny, since just the other day I was listening to an anarchist that *does* have a job and takes showers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyF_17GTNA&feature=youtu.be#t=20m38s
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July 29, 2012, 10:39:44 AM
 #68

What the Hell were we talking about again?

Oh - why call the police? That's an easy one. Private companies are often unwilling to provide information or do an internal investigation without a court order, which pretty much necessitates involving the police. So.... why involve the police? - I want my $5k worth of BTC back. That's not an endorsement of government, just simple greed and common sense.

+1 exact reason in bold

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JoelKatz
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July 29, 2012, 10:48:34 AM
 #69

Heh.  You mean like Blackwater in Iraq?  I suppose that the meaning of 'civil liberties' could eventually be managed down to a point where it is OK to randomly shoot at cars for the fun of it and run down people who are close enough to the street that it is doable without swerving to much.
Blackwater was given the legal right to use force by a government which paid and protected it in exchange for that force.

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July 29, 2012, 10:48:53 AM
 #70

Property is property

You steal username/password to an online game from me and sell the account I am going to call the Police.

what if I guess your username/password?

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July 29, 2012, 10:50:52 AM
 #71

Hey cops! Some guy stole my math equations that are worth on the black market xxx usd

These documents are property of the state department. We demand they be returned immediately!

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paraipan
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July 29, 2012, 10:51:49 AM
 #72

Property is property

You steal username/password to an online game from me and sell the account I am going to call the Police.

what if I guess your username/password?

What if you guess he's wifi password, bank login or the pin number of the house alarm?

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Gabi
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July 29, 2012, 10:53:19 AM
 #73

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.
Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.
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July 29, 2012, 11:05:50 AM
 #74

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.
Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Another reason not to pay ___. When was the last time you filed a police report for theft? Care to describe the swift actions that took place afterwards?

"A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining, but wants it back the minute it begins to rain." - Mark Twain
Come-from-Beyond
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July 29, 2012, 01:46:50 PM
 #75

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.
Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?
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July 29, 2012, 01:50:28 PM
 #76


Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

You can do things outside of the law with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is not outside of the law.

You can trade a pound of moldy cheese for a hit of heroin, or a contract to have someone killed, but that doesn't make moldy cheese "outside of the law"

The same goes with US dollar cash.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
Come-from-Beyond
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July 29, 2012, 01:52:55 PM
 #77


Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?

You can do things outside of the law with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is not outside of the law.

You can trade a pound of moldy cheese for a hit of heroin, or a contract to have someone killed, but that doesn't make moldy cheese "outside of the law"

The same goes with US dollar cash.

I disagree. Read more about cryptocoin. Especially about actions that were taken against Bitcoin by senators, banks and others.
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July 29, 2012, 01:54:47 PM
 #78

Mr. Joel Katz........
He has to always chime in with logic and reason.
Gabi
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July 29, 2012, 02:10:47 PM
 #79

People still don't completely understand what cryptocoins are. They were created out of any government control (even against it) but ex-owners of stolen coins expect to get support of a government. But it has no sense!

I wasn't happy to read about recent Bitcoinica hack. Of coz, victims should ask the police for help to return money, but ONLY FIAT MONEY. Noone ought to mention bitcoins, coz every user of cryptocoins should understand that they outside the law. I pay taxes and I don't want them to be spent for salary of a police officer who investigates a case related to cryptocoins.

I don't know English good enough to explain very sophisticated ideas, but I hope u got me.
Nonsense

We pay TAXES wich also serve for the police service. So yes, if someone steal something from you, you should call the police because you know, you pay TAXES for that.

Bitcoins outside the law. Would u call the police if someone stole ur marijuana?
Again, nonsense
marijuana is illegal

bitcoin is NOT illegal
Come-from-Beyond
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July 29, 2012, 02:21:51 PM
 #80

Again, nonsense
marijuana is illegal

bitcoin is NOT illegal

I advice u to google regarding legality of Bitcoin. So u could find articles like http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/08/government-crackdown-on-bitcoin/ ...
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