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Author Topic: Next consumer model miner  (Read 8725 times)
TheRealSteve
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May 08, 2015, 07:11:26 PM
 #81

If FT.com's finding are anywhere near correct, then the next consumer model miner could be in a toaster oven and possibly even free
That 'free' needs an asterisk; part of FT's conjecture is that they'd be keeping a good chunk of the mining proceeds (whether that's pooled or solo, unspecified), while of course you would still be stuck with the electrical bill (the height of which is also unspecified.. as is the hash rate.. or just about anything else. That 'If' is a big one. )

The next consumer model miner is still most likely to come from one of: SFARDS, GekkoScience, Avalon, Bitmain (more or less in that order depending on exact timelines).

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May 08, 2015, 10:53:42 PM
 #82

Do you the FT guys has any concept of what a "reasonable" mining rig looks like these days?

Is my toaster oven now going to be "on" a lot of the time when I am NOT making toast (i.e. about 23.9 hrs/day)?

I generally think of Financial Times as being pretty good, but the general concept makes almost no sense. While this "mining for free" stuff sounds great the reality will almost certainly fall massively short of anything useful for anybody except possibly the ASIC toaster manufacturer selling $300 toaster ovens.

Anything which tries to hide it's electrical consumption is likely to be an utter failure. It's almost an impossibility that the electric company in any US locale will try and promote any such thing. If anything they want to reduce electrical consumption, particularly during peak times, to avoid having to make the needed infrastructure investment in terms of plants and distribution. I can almost buy into Phillip's idea of an "ASIC portable heater", but beyond that there really isn't anything that makes sense. Look at all the promotions for switching lighting to CFL's or LED bulbs. That's intended to REDUCE consumption, not increase it. Here in MN most companies have one form or another of "load shedding" which allows them to turn things off remotely during peak power demand times. For that you get some kind of credit or reduced rate for the specific kind of load they can shed (e.g. Air Conditioning on the hottest days, Irrigation on farms).
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May 08, 2015, 11:15:05 PM
 #83

I generally think of Financial Times as being pretty good
Just to get this out of the way... this isn't really a "The Financial Times" article.  It's a blog entry - from Alphaville - at FT.com .  You should view it as several ranks down from an op ed piece.

There's several threads on the 21 Inc. as interpreted by Alphaville thing already, so I'll leave discussion there Smiley

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May 09, 2015, 06:56:07 AM
 #84

Whenever I hear about toasters, microwaves or fridges mining bitcoin I assume its an April fools joke because I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

We all know how difficult it is to mine now even with dedicated latest generation hardware consuming lots of electricity and generating lots of heat.

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.


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May 09, 2015, 09:34:25 AM
 #85

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.
The way I'd see such a business model work - somewhat - is if the miner is indeed a small miner (low hash rate, but also low heat, probably passively cooled and potentially using the excess heat for work), but playing the lottery.  The miner itself can be a minor cost (doesn't need to be the latest design, doesn't even need to be custom designed - buy an existing declared-obsolete one) relative to the appliance.  The electricity cost is entirely for the user.  Any found blocks, you get to keep the reward and you may or may not decide to split that with the user.  Even at slim chances, this could theoretically be profitable.
Even if the mining itself ends up being useless, you could still try to monetize it by requiring users to connect to a specific pool - this alone gives you things like IP data. Add an appliance ID and a unique ID and now you've got things to sell to marketing groups.. "User X has appliances A, B and D and research shows they might be interested in G".  But all of that has very little to do with putting mining in the hands of users as a direct cause; any IoT (ew.) company can do that, so the mining bit would only be the schtick to try and lure people into buying your device, and not a competitor's.

Crazier things have happened, but it still seems highly unlikely to be a model pursued anytime soon (if anything, this would have worked better in the past).

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May 09, 2015, 09:38:47 AM
 #86

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.
The way I'd see such a business model work - somewhat - is if the miner is indeed a small miner (low hash rate, but also low heat, probably passively cooled and potentially using the excess heat for work), but playing the lottery.  The miner itself can be a minor cost (doesn't need to be the latest design, doesn't even need to be custom designed - buy an existing declared-obsolete one) relative to the appliance.  The electricity cost is entirely for the user.  Any found blocks, you get to keep the reward and you may or may not decide to split that with the user.  Even at slim chances, this could theoretically be profitable.
Even if the mining itself ends up being useless, you could still try to monetize it by requiring users to connect to a specific pool - this alone gives you things like IP data. Add an appliance ID and a unique ID and now you've got things to sell to marketing groups.. "User X has appliances A, B and D and research shows they might be interested in G".  But all of that has very little to do with putting mining in the hands of users as a direct cause; any IoT (ew.) company can do that, so the mining bit would only be the schtick to try and lure people into buying your device, and not a competitor's.

Crazier things have happened, but it still seems highly unlikely to be a model pursued anytime soon (if anything, this would have worked better in the past).

It could just be me but I never understood playing the "lottery".  A few might win huge sure, but few and far between.  I do think it's neater then playing regular lotto tickets.

But personally I like the pool idea.  I can take all my miners together.  And as a hobby miner i can mix with ton's of other miners, and can get paid based on luck such as antpool or guaranteed even with f2pool.  If decent electricity price either one of these options is my favorite compared to lotto.
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May 09, 2015, 09:49:40 AM
 #87

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.
The way I'd see such a business model work - somewhat - is if the miner is indeed a small miner (low hash rate, but also low heat, probably passively cooled and potentially using the excess heat for work), but playing the lottery.  The miner itself can be a minor cost (doesn't need to be the latest design, doesn't even need to be custom designed - buy an existing declared-obsolete one) relative to the appliance.  The electricity cost is entirely for the user.  Any found blocks, you get to keep the reward and you may or may not decide to split that with the user.  Even at slim chances, this could theoretically be profitable.
Even if the mining itself ends up being useless, you could still try to monetize it by requiring users to connect to a specific pool - this alone gives you things like IP data. Add an appliance ID and a unique ID and now you've got things to sell to marketing groups.. "User X has appliances A, B and D and research shows they might be interested in G".  But all of that has very little to do with putting mining in the hands of users as a direct cause; any IoT (ew.) company can do that, so the mining bit would only be the schtick to try and lure people into buying your device, and not a competitor's.

Crazier things have happened, but it still seems highly unlikely to be a model pursued anytime soon (if anything, this would have worked better in the past).

It could just be me but I never understood playing the "lottery".  A few might win huge sure, but few and far between.  I do think it's neater then playing regular lotto tickets.

But personally I like the pool idea.  I can take all my miners together.  And as a hobby miner i can mix with ton's of other miners, and can get paid based on luck such as antpool or guaranteed even with f2pool.  If decent electricity price either one of these options is my favorite compared to lotto.

I still don't see how its worth the time and effort developing the items. At best you'd squeeze a tiny usb type miner in a toaster.

Alright it might only use a few watts of power but even if it was rated at 10 GH/s it would only produce 0.0001btc a day and that's at todays difficulty.

Solo mining it would take about 236836 days (648 years) on average to find a block, again at todays difficulty.

http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/bitcoin-mining-calculator/?h=10.00&p=10&pc=0.10&pf=0.00&d=47643398017.80340000&r=25.00000000&er=242.19000000&hc=0.00

Just seems like a lot of time and effort for nothing to me.

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May 09, 2015, 09:59:33 AM
 #88

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.
The way I'd see such a business model work - somewhat - is if the miner is indeed a small miner (low hash rate, but also low heat, probably passively cooled and potentially using the excess heat for work), but playing the lottery.  The miner itself can be a minor cost (doesn't need to be the latest design, doesn't even need to be custom designed - buy an existing declared-obsolete one) relative to the appliance.  The electricity cost is entirely for the user.  Any found blocks, you get to keep the reward and you may or may not decide to split that with the user.  Even at slim chances, this could theoretically be profitable.
Even if the mining itself ends up being useless, you could still try to monetize it by requiring users to connect to a specific pool - this alone gives you things like IP data. Add an appliance ID and a unique ID and now you've got things to sell to marketing groups.. "User X has appliances A, B and D and research shows they might be interested in G".  But all of that has very little to do with putting mining in the hands of users as a direct cause; any IoT (ew.) company can do that, so the mining bit would only be the schtick to try and lure people into buying your device, and not a competitor's.

Crazier things have happened, but it still seems highly unlikely to be a model pursued anytime soon (if anything, this would have worked better in the past).

It could just be me but I never understood playing the "lottery".  A few might win huge sure, but few and far between.  I do think it's neater then playing regular lotto tickets.

But personally I like the pool idea.  I can take all my miners together.  And as a hobby miner i can mix with ton's of other miners, and can get paid based on luck such as antpool or guaranteed even with f2pool.  If decent electricity price either one of these options is my favorite compared to lotto.

I still don't see how its worth the time and effort developing the items. At best you'd squeeze a tiny usb type miner in a toaster.

Alright it might only use a few watts of power but even if it was rated at 10 GH/s it would only produce 0.0001btc a day and that's at todays difficulty.

Solo mining it would take about 236836 days (648 years) on average to find a block, again at todays difficulty.

http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/bitcoin-mining-calculator/?h=10.00&p=10&pc=0.10&pf=0.00&d=47643398017.80340000&r=25.00000000&er=242.19000000&hc=0.00

Just seems like a lot of time and effort for nothing to me.

The items normally used as examples of "big" miners are water heaters, and space heaters.  Both use lots of electricity and job is to create heat.

I am not holding my breath for a consumer item that combines them.  But I would not be surprised to see some individuals doing it.  Space heater's I know they are used for in winter does not take much change of them except in many cases making miner more quiet.
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May 09, 2015, 10:01:02 AM
 #89

It could just be me but I never understood playing the "lottery".  A few might win huge sure, but few and far between.  I do think it's neater then playing regular lotto tickets.
Basically if you've got an old miner running anyway - for whatever reason - you might as well play the lottery as joining in a pool lands you so little that you may never reach the payout minimum or simply get lost in rounding errors Wink
Let's say you could play the lottery not with a single such device, but with a thousand, each adding maybe a dollar (being generous here) to the price of the (double-digit and up) appliance (assuming it already has connectivity stuff). That's $1k in direct cost.  You only need a single block found and you've already made that back.
I'm not saying it makes practical sense - but that's the only particular way in which I can see something like that being done (aside from the monetization of data bit).

If you've got a miner that still makes some money (if not profit) on regular or p2pool.. then that's not really the sort of miner I'd be thinking of in this context.  I think the business model would change quite a bit if they were all, say, S3-level devices.

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May 09, 2015, 10:16:06 AM
 #90

It could just be me but I never understood playing the "lottery".  A few might win huge sure, but few and far between.  I do think it's neater then playing regular lotto tickets.
Basically if you've got an old miner running anyway - for whatever reason - you might as well play the lottery as joining in a pool lands you so little that you may never reach the payout minimum or simply get lost in rounding errors Wink
Let's say you could play the lottery not with a single such device, but with a thousand, each adding maybe a dollar (being generous here) to the price of the (double-digit and up) appliance (assuming it already has connectivity stuff). That's $1k in direct cost.  You only need a single block found and you've already made that back.
I'm not saying it makes practical sense - but that's the only particular way in which I can see something like that being done (aside from the monetization of data bit).

If you've got a miner that still makes some money (if not profit) on regular or p2pool.. then that's not really the sort of miner I'd be thinking of in this context.  I think the business model would change quite a bit if they were all, say, S3-level devices.

I just think S3 level and above cost's are to high for most to do lotto.  Especially if running multiple.  I know at one time I was running 6 S3's they were great miners.  But I think most could never justify that cost for "lottery" .   Chances of a S3 hitting a block on its own just will never justify 25 dollars + a month per unit. (assuming around 10 cents per kw) If I would have kept them and throw 150 away each month into lotto.  I could not justify it with the odds.

I think old miners being sold to people with extremely low electricity will happen over lotto.  I know I sold mine a while back bought newer miners.

But if you go down to say usb miners I say sure I can see people doing lottery on those.  Could even be fun.
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May 09, 2015, 02:12:32 PM
 #91

I think they are only ones looking into a small miner.  Seems to be a smaller market.
Avalon is or was planning a 100Gh/s model, which should be a small miner.  SFARDS is also willing to work with integrators for smaller miners.  Both would be based on new chips, though, so have to await availability.  SFARDS's chip should be out Soon™
FAKED QUOTE
The new chips are the key for either.  Without new chips it wont get much traction on sales.    

I think the market for 100 GHs or smaller is getting smaller and smaller. Look at this page to get a good miner.
(removed link)

does it works?

Note someone is screwing with me this was meant to make it look like I was spamming.  But it's a new account messing around with the quotes.  It has been reported please look here for original post - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=962730.msg11328523#msg11328523

Thank you mods for fixing it.  Appears user krankyfreak is trying to make it look like I spammed a website in big letters.
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May 09, 2015, 02:22:33 PM
 #92

Looks like krankyfreak is no more.

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May 09, 2015, 04:05:39 PM
 #93

Whenever I hear about toasters, microwaves or fridges mining bitcoin I assume its an April fools joke because I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

We all know how difficult it is to mine now even with dedicated latest generation hardware consuming lots of electricity and generating lots of heat.

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.



you are correct.

A 24/7/365 side miner in a home really only works for people burning the power already.

I  live in NJ  there are a lot of homes with base board  electric radiator heating.  By a lot 10's of thousands.  They heat the home with power hungry heaters from NOV to APR spending 300 to 500 a month. 

They can use this

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Cadet/4F1000A-1000W-240V-4-Foot-electric-baseboard-Heater-Almond/39440.ac

or use this

a 3 pack

https://ehash.com/product/avalon4-3t-suite-2/

a 1 pack

https://ehash.com/product/avalon4-module-1t/


1 heating season just 1 and they made up for the extra setup cost.

I can not fathom this market being ignored yet it is to a large extent.

Remember that home owner will be heating the home for years to come.

 


Please support sidehack with his new miner project Send to : 1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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May 09, 2015, 04:51:15 PM
 #94

Whenever I hear about toasters, microwaves or fridges mining bitcoin I assume its an April fools joke because I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

We all know how difficult it is to mine now even with dedicated latest generation hardware consuming lots of electricity and generating lots of heat.

So how anyone thinks a toaster or fridge will do the same is beyond me, the only scenario I can think of is that it's got a small miner built in which at best might make you dust everyday in which case it's pretty much useless.



you are correct.

A 24/7/365 side miner in a home really only works for people burning the power already.

I  live in NJ  there are a lot of homes with base board  electric radiator heating.  By a lot 10's of thousands.  They heat the home with power hungry heaters from NOV to APR spending 300 to 500 a month.  

They can use this

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Cadet/4F1000A-1000W-240V-4-Foot-electric-baseboard-Heater-Almond/39440.ac

or use this

a 3 pack

https://ehash.com/product/avalon4-3t-suite-2/

a 1 pack

https://ehash.com/product/avalon4-module-1t/

1 heating season just 1 and they made up for the extra setup cost.

I can not fathom this market being ignored yet it is to a large extent.

Remember that home owner will be heating the home for years to come.


If you're using electric heating then miners are a perfect alternative as they probably consume similar power for similar heat output.

I was using miners to heat parts of my home last winter rather than electric heaters. I might even will probably do the same again next winter Smiley.

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May 09, 2015, 05:28:15 PM
 #95

right now to have any hope of mining even a couple dollars a week in btc you need to think in terrahashes.

so i am not aware of any home friendly models,

a decent choice may be the s5  , i don't own one, but was thinking about it....

i hear they are very loud though (the fan)

clocked normal supossed to be able to put out just over 1.1 ths

still unless you have cheap electric and a place to run the unit(s) suitable, may be tough....


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May 09, 2015, 05:42:56 PM
 #96

right now to have any hope of mining even a couple dollars a week in btc you need to think in terrahashes.

so i am not aware of any home friendly models,

a decent choice may be the s5  , i don't own one, but was thinking about it....

i hear they are very loud though (the fan)

clocked normal supossed to be able to put out just over 1.1 ths

still unless you have cheap electric and a place to run the unit(s) suitable, may be tough....


S5's are one of the most efficient miners and you can change the fans to quiet ones Wink.

You will still need cheap electricity to return a profit.

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May 09, 2015, 05:47:10 PM
 #97

right now to have any hope of mining even a couple dollars a week in btc you need to think in terrahashes.

so i am not aware of any home friendly models,

a decent choice may be the s5  , i don't own one, but was thinking about it....

i hear they are very loud though (the fan)

clocked normal supossed to be able to put out just over 1.1 ths

still unless you have cheap electric and a place to run the unit(s) suitable, may be tough....


S5's are one of the most efficient miners and you can change the fans to quiet ones Wink.

You will still need cheap electricity to return a profit.

absolutely  s5's sp20's or c1's.

I few waterblock c1's can warm your house in the winter and warm your pool in the summer.

Please support sidehack with his new miner project Send to : 1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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May 09, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
 #98

right now to have any hope of mining even a couple dollars a week in btc you need to think in terrahashes.

so i am not aware of any home friendly models,

a decent choice may be the s5  , i don't own one, but was thinking about it....

i hear they are very loud though (the fan)

clocked normal supossed to be able to put out just over 1.1 ths

still unless you have cheap electric and a place to run the unit(s) suitable, may be tough....



I would agree with now thinking more then one TH if you want more earnings.  1T is no longer near what it once was. 

As we grow more efficient you will need more and more hash.  For some it is easier to expand for more miners then it is others.  We have unique situations as home miners lot's of different situations.
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May 09, 2015, 06:26:18 PM
 #99

right now to have any hope of mining even a couple dollars a week in btc you need to think in terrahashes.

so i am not aware of any home friendly models,

a decent choice may be the s5  , i don't own one, but was thinking about it....

i hear they are very loud though (the fan)

clocked normal supossed to be able to put out just over 1.1 ths

still unless you have cheap electric and a place to run the unit(s) suitable, may be tough....


I would agree with now thinking more then one TH if you want more earnings.  1T is no longer near what it once was. 

As we grow more efficient you will need more and more hash.  For some it is easier to expand for more miners then it is others.  We have unique situations as home miners lot's of different situations.

I couldn't agree more, 1TH will only return about 0.01btc a day currently so its touch and go whether you turn a profit or not depending on hardware and electricity cost.

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May 10, 2015, 09:55:38 PM
 #100

Am waiting on some next gen from bitmain or SP if something comes along with much better power ratio and cost effective at the same time to compensate for power costs and generation of bitcoin I would be buying. Good old days 60GH making 2BTC a day was insane shame now needing something like 100TH or more to make 1BTC a day.

I would be happy with some units coming up with maybe 5 to 10TH power using maybe 800 to 1,000watt. Right now I doubt will happen but maybe 6 to 8 months down the road or sometime next year if the future of aisc chips get smaller and use less energy then this could be done or someone comes along brakes the record to use current tec and blows markets away with power use.
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