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Author Topic: My MIT Bitcoin Expo Experience / Some Questions  (Read 1110 times)
ipsissimus (OP)
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March 09, 2015, 02:18:45 AM
 #1

Great event... Great people all in one room... Many thanks to the MIT Bitcoin Club for putting this on! Super excited about threshold signatures!!!

However, there were a few questions I intended to ask, and I did not make it happen. If you all could indulge me, I would like some help reconciling a few things here.

I've done searches on the issues below, with little and inconclusive results... I would really like to get the forum's input regarding these concerns. Please bear with me if these are non-issues. And please forgive the length/formatting.


1.) Is it okay that we don't know who Satoshi is? Does it matter? I know it has been implied by the community that it's very unlikely he/she/they have ill intentions, and that Satoshi demonstrated his trustworthiness in his behavior engaging with Gavin and the public online... But what of the "Satoshi fortune"? Isn't this kind of a wild card? What is the rational when a company like Microsoft stomachs this risk?


2.) So, in the very first line of the abstract in the Satoshi white paper, we have him saying Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer system, absent of a trusted third party. And at the closing of the expo today we have Peter Todd letting us know that miners are actually the trusted third party in this arrangement. I think I understand the context behind both of their reasonings, but since I'm outside of the realm of technical expertise and programming language here, so I want to be damn sure I at least get the spoken language right..

Bitcoin seems like it has a lot of paradoxes going on... (transparency/privacy) (anonymity/pseudonymity), (scarcity/infinite divisibility), (tool of liberation;freedom/tool of oppression;surveillance), (miners can be decentralized/miners centralizing in China).... Anybody have any thought on these?


3.) What concerns are there if any regarding miner selectivity when deciding which transactions to include in a block? Is this a "nature will run it's course" kind of scenario? It seems like there would be plenty of room for miners to exhibit these exclusionary or calculated behaviors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.. In some sense, miners are free to do as the choose, so in a way this makes the system more "free". But at the same time couldn't this result in increased centralization? Isn't this just like our "free" market that currently exists, where Comcast is "free" to fuck us over so flawlessly? Or are we just truly in uncharted waters, and there is no way for anyone to know or even estimate?

Peter Todd basically closed with, "There is no way know what will happen, or if these issues can/will propagate." I understand this statement at face value, because obviously he and others are not wizard psychic type cryptomon... But holy shit, this was such ominous way to close the expo! I just thought I'd hear something a little more certain from one of the core devs.. Scary stuff.


4.) Or maybe a participant tries to inject 1 million 1 Satoshi transactions in an under an hour? How would the network react? Like some mad garage scientist secretly some franken super hashing monster, and storms the Bitcoin beach? (i know this is ridiculous) But seriously.. what if there were an army of bots trading or spamming or dusting the network.. What kind of moat does Bitcoin Castle have against someone(s) who wants to be a dick about it? Can we handle that situation?


5.) Can Bitcoin coexist along side future developments in quantum computing? Like SHA256 getting pwned somehow? Or couldn't we just incorporate this unlocked potential to build a kind of quantum capable blockchain. Super Shredder blockchain??


Thanks all for reading. Please help me to understand this better... I would really like to be more fluid trying to articulate this junk...

Seriously.. All this decentralized hullabaloo, come to realize the damn miners are the third party all along? Is this just pedantic semantic gymnastics? There is no way Satoshi mis-characterized Bitcoin in the first fucking sentence of our holy white paper.. Right??
According to NIST and ECRYPT II, the cryptographic algorithms used in Bitcoin are expected to be strong until at least 2030. (After that, it will not be too difficult to transition to different algorithms.)
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DannyHamilton
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March 09, 2015, 04:31:07 AM
 #2

1.) Is it okay that we don't know who Satoshi is?

Of course it is.  Just like it's ok that we don't know who invented the hammer, or the wheel, or who first discovered how to make fire.

Does it matter? I know it has been implied by the community that it's very unlikely he/she/they have ill intentions, and that Satoshi demonstrated his trustworthiness in his behavior engaging with Gavin and the public online...

His intentions and trustworthiness are unimportant.  They have no bearing on what we choose to do with bitcoin.

But what of the "Satoshi fortune"? Isn't this kind of a wild card? What is the rational when a company like Microsoft stomachs this risk?

What of it?  It's his wealth.  He can do with it whatever he pleases. I really don't care.

2.) So, in the very first line of the abstract in the Satoshi white paper, we have him saying Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer system, absent of a trusted third party. And at the closing of the expo today we have Peter Todd letting us know that miners are actually the trusted third party in this arrangement.

Then Peter Todd misrepresented something, or you misunderstood what he said.  There is no need to "trust" miners, since you can verify the entire blockchain yourself (and all full nodes do).

I think I understand the context behind both of their reasonings, but since I'm outside of the realm of technical expertise and programming language here, so I want to be damn sure I at least get the spoken language right..

Bitcoin seems like it has a lot of paradoxes going on... (transparency/privacy) (anonymity/pseudonymity), (scarcity/infinite divisibility), (tool of liberation;freedom/tool of oppression;surveillance), (miners can be decentralized/miners centralizing in China).... Anybody have any thought on these?

Transparency is available if the user chooses to be transparent (by announcing their bitcoin addresses, and transaction ID's, but privacy is also available if the user chooses to be private by keeping their bitcoin addresses to themselves and using a new address for every transaction.  The point is that the user has the ability to choose their own level of transparency and privacy.

True anonymity is nearly impossible with bitcoins.  Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying to you or misunderstanding something.  However, pseudonymity is built in to the system and with reasonable precautions it is possible to make it very difficult for most entities to identify who performed which transactions.

Scarcity and infinite divisibility are not opposing points.  If you think that that they are then you are mis-understanding one or both concepts.

Bitcoin isn't a tool of liberation, freedom, oppression, or surveillance.  It is a tool of value transfer.  Like most tools, it can be used in both positive and negative ways.

Miners can choose how much they wish to consolidate, that is the nature of decentralization.  There is nobody in control that can force miners to keep their activities separate (or force them to act together).

3.) What concerns are there if any regarding miner selectivity when deciding which transactions to include in a block? Is this a "nature will run it's course" kind of scenario? It seems like there would be plenty of room for miners to exhibit these exclusionary or calculated behaviors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.. In some sense, miners are free to do as the choose, so in a way this makes the system more "free". But at the same time couldn't this result in increased centralization? Isn't this just like our "free" market that currently exists, where Comcast is "free" to fuck us over so flawlessly? Or are we just truly in uncharted waters, and there is no way for anyone to know or even estimate?

If a miner chooses not to include a profitable transaction, then some other greedy miner will in a later block.  The bitcoin network is global with EVERY miner in the world directly competing with every other miner for increased profits.  Unlike Comcast, there is no "territory" that a miner can isolate to prevent competition.

Peter Todd basically closed with, "There is no way know what will happen, or if these issues can/will propagate." I understand this statement at face value, because obviously he and others are not wizard psychic type cryptomon... But holy shit, this was such ominous way to close the expo! I just thought I'd hear something a little more certain from one of the core devs.. Scary stuff.

Bitcoin is a an amazing and very interesting experiment.  It is still in its infancy and it is impossible to predict what the end result of that experiment will be.

4.) Or maybe a participant tries to inject 1 million 1 Satoshi transactions in an under an hour? How would the network react? Like some mad garage scientist secretly some franken super hashing monster, and storms the Bitcoin beach? (i know this is ridiculous) But seriously.. what if there were an army of bots trading or spamming or dusting the network.. What kind of moat does Bitcoin Castle have against someone(s) who wants to be a dick about it? Can we handle that situation?

This is why we have transaction fee requirements on relaying transactions.  If the "attacker" pays enough fees, it will be a VERY expensive attack, it will make a lot of money for miners, and eventually the attacker will run out of bitcoins.  If the attacker doesn't pay enough fees, then every node will simply refuse to relay the transactions from the attacker.

5.) Can Bitcoin coexist along side future developments in quantum computing? Like SHA256 getting pwned somehow? Or couldn't we just incorporate this unlocked potential to build a kind of quantum capable blockchain. Super Shredder blockchain??

Quantum computing isn't magic.  Bitcoin is safe from any near term developments in quantum computing.  If quantum computing begins to make progress in a direction that could weaken the security of bitcoin, then bitcoin can move to new algorithms for signature generation and hashing.

Seriously.. All this decentralized hullabaloo, come to realize the damn miners are the third party all along? Is this just pedantic semantic gymnastics? There is no way Satoshi mis-characterized Bitcoin in the first fucking sentence of our holy white paper.. Right??

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Bitcoin uses a proof-of-work to establish the order of transactions in a ledger.  Anyone is welcome to participate in that proof-of-work if they like, and it is impossible to modify the history in the ledger unless an entity can exceed 50% of the global hash power for an extended period of time.  This has been well understood from the very beginning.
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March 09, 2015, 04:49:40 AM
 #3

Quote from: ipsissimus on Today at 09:18:45 PM
Seriously.. All this decentralized hullabaloo, come to realize the damn miners are the third party all along? Is this just pedantic semantic gymnastics? There is no way Satoshi mis-characterized Bitcoin in the first fucking sentence of our holy white paper.. Right?

10s of thousands of miners are the decentralized trusted third party.

They can be trusted because they are financially incentivized to be honest.
ipsissimus (OP)
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March 09, 2015, 05:07:47 AM
Last edit: March 09, 2015, 05:45:07 AM by ipsissimus
 #4

Hey man.. Thanks for your reply.. I hope i didn't frustrate you at all.. I'm in the loop with and understand everything you said.. I was just looking for some more input/playing devils advocate. This is basically just a collection of concerns I've compiled from various places. I searched around and couldn't find many interpretations of these "concerns." I'm all for people trying spot weak points to further secure Bitcoin, but I imagine it gets tiresome for the veterans. So thanks for your time. People need to learn which questions are the right questions to be asking. I would like to expedite that.

I actually did leave one question out... Maybe you could help me with it.

6.) What's to stop a government, bank, some other fiat issuing entity, or someone crazy rich from just printing/supplying tons of "real" money in attempt to "drown" Bitcoin. I feel like is non-issue for several reasons, but would it possible for that entity to effectively crash the network or the price, even if just temporarily? Imagine an "off the record" printing of billions of dollars, which are then used to purchase all available bitcoins. They continuously do this and immediately turn around and put those coins back on the market for 2009 prices. And they keep doing it. I understand that some people would still have confidence and scoop those coins like crazy, but wouldn't the low price shake the perceived value and utility of Bitcoin in the eyes of the public to the point to exile/intransigence?

Or, say we are far enough long, and the ecosystem running smoothly demands a price of say $1000 to cover the costs of the network incentives and fees, and only THEN does this actor come along and pull this shit.. Miners shut down, and the network becomes unsustainable, and there price and ecosystem "retreat" back into a sustainable balance... Would this be similar to what is purported to have been happening the last a few months? I imagine the the network could rebound once/if this "fiat attack" ceases. It seems like Bitcoin is ultimately inevitable, regardless of the scale it operates on... But could these "infinite money supply" actors effectively delay and hinder the network's growth and adoption just by having these hypothetical "infinite" fiat resources? (I know fractional reserve doesn't actually allow for "infinite" money creation, and creation is supposed to be proportional to the actual reserves... but just for this hypotheticals sake, what if the Federal Reserve "counterfeited" their own dollars off the books??) (Or is that what is happening anyway?)



I managed to get some feedback at r/bitcoin as well. Peter Todd and Gavin both got involved in the conversation. You should check it out. Peter Todd said basically what you said regarding node operators being able to verify blockchain their-selves, but in his conversational language, he actually DOES refer to the miners as a "collectively trusted third party".. But as you guys said, as full node operator, I am in essence a part of the this trusted third party, so it isn't so bad.. I like the way you put it though.

My thinking here is that I need to be fluent in casual conversational language surround Bitcoin. As you noted in your reply, there are plenty of misnomers and misconceptions in the community.. especially in the language.. So I would like to do my part in disseminating the most informed and accurate narrative possible.


 Thanks for you time bud. Go check this out!!

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2yebbg/my_mit_bitcoin_expo_experience_a_few_questions/
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March 09, 2015, 06:54:37 AM
 #5

How was the crowd and the press at the MIT event? Anything odd or surprising happen?

Thanks for sharing your comments about it.

1) I think it's ok to not know who Satoshi is, it's probably for the best. If we know who Satoshi is, if we know him personally we can blur his work with who he/she is as a human. Sometimes it's best to keep those things independent of each other.

2) Wouldn't the miners also be one of the peers in the peer to peer network. The peer to peer relationship can be articulated as a web, I have a relationship with the miners that are verifying my transaction, they have a relationship with other users, etc.

I can't really comment on the rest.

ipsissimus (OP)
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March 09, 2015, 08:00:48 AM
 #6

I had no run ins with any press, but the people were very receptive. A lot of various trades and disciplines represented. Something that was curiously noticeable, was a friendly gentleman from Wells Fargo was doing some extremely active networking..

He occasionally had some cynical and teasing commentary. It was kind of funny!

Thanks for the reply partner!
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March 10, 2015, 12:53:15 AM
 #7


True anonymity is nearly impossible with bitcoins.  Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying to you or misunderstanding something.  However, pseudonymity is built in to the system and with reasonable precautions it is possible to make it very difficult for most entities to identify who performed which transactions.



If is not anonymous as you said and IF we are lying about that find me who is this guy behind this bitcoin adress...

https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

http://www.bitcoin-gr.org
4411 804B 0181 F444 ADBD 01D4 0664 00E4 37E7 228E
DannyHamilton
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March 10, 2015, 01:01:51 AM
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True anonymity is nearly impossible with bitcoins.  Anyone that tells you otherwise is either lying to you or misunderstanding something.  However, pseudonymity is built in to the system and with reasonable precautions it is possible to make it very difficult for most entities to identify who performed which transactions.



If is not anonymous as you said and IF we are lying about that find me who is this guy behind this bitcoin adress...

https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

Anonymous does not mean what you think it means.

I made a mortgage payment today with a bank transfer from one of the banks where I have USD checking accounts.  That transaction was also not anonymous.  Can you tell me how much I sent, who I sent it to, and what bank I sent it from?

You and I (and most other people) don't know who is in control of the 1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf address.  However, anytime he sends any of those bitcoins to anyone, the person receiving the bitcoins can tell that they were previously received at that address.  If he sends them through a "mixer" there is potential for the operator of the mixer to track where the bitcoins go and to identify the recipient.  Even if the operator of the mixer does not track the movement of those bitcoins through their system, there is opportunity for forensic accounting practices with significant computing power to trace the flow through the mixer and follow the movement of those bitcoins.

If enough resources are put towards tracking down who controls that address, then any small mistake can eventually lead to them being identified.
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