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icanscript
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March 11, 2015, 05:10:41 PM
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Hi,

I have just been looking down a list of Bitcoin Mining Pools and notice that absolutely none of them use the PROP payout system, This always seemed a popular payout system with regards to altcoins but not so much bitcoin?

I notice most use PPLNS. I have heard a lot about PPLNS being "unfair" but it has only ever served me good purpose in the past and increased my profits.

So if possible could someone tell me why there are no PROP pools?

Thanks
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March 11, 2015, 05:29:34 PM
 #2

The main problem with PROP payout is pool hopping.
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5072/what-is-pool-hopping

tl;dr: By changing pools at the right time, you can get a higher payout than you would if you stuck to a single pool.

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March 11, 2015, 06:33:18 PM
 #3

Absolutely nothing is wrong with Proportional payout system.

Hopping is completely a non issue in Bitcoin mining these days.

Also when hopping was an "issue" it seems to me as long as user's understood that they *may* earn less on long block's because of hopping and they chose to use Prop payout anyway that was just fine then too.   Nobody, that I know of, had shown that proportional hurt people's payouts on pools that would not have found blocks if not for hoppers.

That being said PPLNS is not "unfair" either as it delays payouts as it ramps up to the full payout and then ramps down after you stop mining.  So over time it equals proportional payout while discouraging hopping.

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March 11, 2015, 08:34:52 PM
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Also when hopping was an "issue" it seems to me as long as user's understood that they *may* earn less on long block's because of hopping and they chose to use Prop payout anyway that was just fine then too.   Nobody, that I know of, had shown that proportional hurt people's payouts on pools that would not have found blocks if not for hoppers.
That's not quite true. There was a whole industry created from professional hopping, they made substantially more by doing so, and in the process the non hoppers were definitely making less. Organofcorti showed mathematically how and started monitoring how much hopping was occurring, but by the time he started monitoring it most pools were in the process of moving away from it.

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March 11, 2015, 10:06:30 PM
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Also when hopping was an "issue" it seems to me as long as user's understood that they *may* earn less on long block's because of hopping and they chose to use Prop payout anyway that was just fine then too.   Nobody, that I know of, had shown that proportional hurt people's payouts on pools that would not have found blocks if not for hoppers.
That's not quite true. There was a whole industry created from professional hopping, they made substantially more by doing so, and in the process the non hoppers were definitely making less. Organofcorti showed mathematically how and started monitoring how much hopping was occurring, but by the time he started monitoring it most pools were in the process of moving away from it.

It only hurt on long blocks.  When hoppers found blocks quickly, before they hopped out, it was good for everyone, especially on smal pools that would have never found a block otherwise.  The point I'm trying to make is that nobody did or was able to quantify "the good" hopping may have done and only dwelled on the bad.  And maybe the bad did out way the good, I just don't know, and as far as I have heard nobody else really knows either.

I was never a hopper by the way.

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March 13, 2015, 08:41:28 PM
 #6

Also when hopping was an "issue" it seems to me as long as user's understood that they *may* earn less on long block's because of hopping and they chose to use Prop payout anyway that was just fine then too.   Nobody, that I know of, had shown that proportional hurt people's payouts on pools that would not have found blocks if not for hoppers.
That's not quite true. There was a whole industry created from professional hopping, they made substantially more by doing so, and in the process the non hoppers were definitely making less. Organofcorti showed mathematically how and started monitoring how much hopping was occurring, but by the time he started monitoring it most pools were in the process of moving away from it.

It only hurt on long blocks.  When hoppers found blocks quickly, before they hopped out, it was good for everyone, especially on smal pools that would have never found a block otherwise.  The point I'm trying to make is that nobody did or was able to quantify "the good" hopping may have done and only dwelled on the bad.  And maybe the bad did out way the good, I just don't know, and as far as I have heard nobody else really knows either.

I was never a hopper by the way.

You may not have noticed it, because hopping is only shaving a few percent off the other users rewards, and was normally only seen during lucky streaks.  But you were absolutely negatively impacted by it.

It was statistically proven, and seen in the wild, that pool hopping made a higher payout than average.  Mining is a zero-sum game, meaning the only way one party can make more is if everybody else is making less.  Yes, when they hopped on your pool during a lucky streak, you didn't really notice the 'loss' because you were making more than you would on an average day due to the pool being lucky.  However, had the hoppers not been there, your long term average over that month (for example) would have been even higher.


EDIT:  That was the real problem with pool hopping.  Because of how it worked, it was only *obvious* during lucky streaks.  As a result, users didn't notice the negative impact of the hopping because they were only losing maybe 5-10% off each block, but the pool produced 20-30% more blocks that day than expected (all sample numbers).  But it all comes down to zero-sum mining.  If somebody is making more than they should (which is absolutely proven to be true back when many pools were proportional), the only way that can happen is if everybody else on those pools was losing a little bit.

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March 14, 2015, 06:55:37 AM
 #7

Whats wrong wiht a PROP payout is the mining pool owners have to do work to make money from a PROP payout pool. PROP payouts are the only truely fair way to run a pool and spread the reward fairly to the members and pay them exactly for the work they submit. PPLNS pools are profit houses for the owners that run them, they can easily confuse you, under pay you and get away with it by throwing magical equations that mnake no sense to the common user.

In a PROP pool the owner must own a certain percentage of the pool in order make profit from it, or charge huge fees. Since most of your pool PPLNS owners today have very little equipment and just want you to help them mine BTC and make a huge profit from your work and your expense, its just easier to lie to you and say "PPLNS pools do not make any money" But ask yourself if they were not making any money, why do so many people use them? who pays for the hosting services and the support staff, and all those overhead costs if a PPLNS pool doesnt make profits? What benefit would there be to run a PPLNS pool if ti really wasnt profitable?
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March 14, 2015, 10:25:30 AM
 #8

Whats wrong wiht a PROP payout is the mining pool owners have to do work to make money from a PROP payout pool. PROP payouts are the only truely fair way to run a pool and spread the reward fairly to the members and pay them exactly for the work they submit.
See above conversation and other threads for the reasons as to why PROP is ideally the most fair, but requires an ideal world (i.e. without people trying to game the system) for it to actually be fair.

PPLNS pools are profit houses for the owners that run them, they can easily confuse you, under pay you and get away with it by throwing magical equations that mnake no sense to the common user.
PPLNS typically only involves remedial math, not 'magical equations'.
In addition, there's no shortage of opportunity for pool owners to cheat when using PROP.

Unless all shares are made public, there's really no public transparency to pools to begin with.  You'd have to trust that every single miner keeps track of their number of accepted shares themselves and comparing that to what they're getting paid out.  Ultimately the miners have to trust the pool operator not to try and 'steal' a share from people they suspect aren't paying attention.  In most cases, pools do set up fees (1%, 2% are not uncommon - not sure how those are 'huge' fees, though) which bring in much more than trying to screw over their miners, with the added benefit of not being labeled a scammer and seeing everybody disappear off to a different pool when eventually caught.

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March 14, 2015, 04:49:20 PM
 #9

PROP payouts are the only truely fair way to run a pool and spread the reward fairly to the members and pay them exactly for the work they submit.

Paying everyone exactly for the work is PPS, not PROP. PROP pays people more at the beginning of a block, and less at the end of a block. That is definitely not fair.

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March 14, 2015, 05:58:23 PM
 #10

Paying everyone exactly for the work is PPS, not PROP. PROP pays people more at the beginning of a block, and less at the end of a block. That is definitely not fair.

I guess that depends on one's definition of 'fair'.

With PROP, if the pool is unlucky, the miners are unlucky - and if the pool is lucky, the miners are lucky.  This does mean that you can have a miner chugging away 24/7, and if no block is found, you're not going to see anything back for it.  On the other hand, if the pool collectively finds a bunch of blocks in a row, then every participating miner gets paid out accordingly.

With PPS, the pool's luck doesn't matter - the miners get paid out for every share regardless.  This means that the pool will need a reserve to back payments when luck is low (often with associated higher fees), and on the other hand if the pool's luck is high, you're not going to benefit from that.

PPLNS can also be viewed as 'fair' if one's definition of fairness includes not paying out disproportionally to hoppers.  The same applies to every other payout method that finds popular use.  To say one is more 'fair' than the other is a bit like arguing sweet BBQ is better than spicy BBQ sauce.  At least it's easy to identify ones that are unfair. A fictional PPBTCTPC, for example Wink

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March 14, 2015, 06:16:14 PM
 #11

PROP payouts are the only truely fair way to run a pool and spread the reward fairly to the members and pay them exactly for the work they submit.
PROP pays people more at the beginning of a block, and less at the end of a block. That is definitely not fair.

No it doesn't.  The block reward is divided between all the shares for the round.  Every share is paid equally.  So if it's a long round the shares are worth less and if its a short round they are worth more.  But they are all the same value per round.

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March 14, 2015, 06:19:31 PM
 #12

To say one is more 'fair' than the other is a bit like arguing sweet BBQ is better than spicy BBQ sauce. 

Spicy BBQ sauce is definitely better.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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March 14, 2015, 06:39:09 PM
 #13

Spicy BBQ sauce is definitely better.
Now listen here, boy! ... I actually agree Wink

PROP pays people more at the beginning of a block, and less at the end of a block.
No it doesn't.
I think Syke meant to say that if you join at 0% into the round, you get paid out more than if you join at 95% into the round, even if - over any given timespan (not 'per round') - you bring in more shares.

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March 14, 2015, 07:56:45 PM
 #14

PROP pays people more at the beginning of a block, and less at the end of a block.
No it doesn't.
I think Syke meant to say that if you join at 0% into the round, you get paid out more than if you join at 95% into the round, even if - over any given timespan (not 'per round') - you bring in more shares.

So he want's to get paid the same if he mines the last 5% of a round as a person who mines 100% of the round?  That makes no sense nor is fair.

Proportional payouts paid the same value to all shares no matter how many a miner contributes in the round.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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March 14, 2015, 09:17:04 PM
 #15

So he want's to get paid the same if he mines the last 5% of a round as a person who mines 100% of the round?  That makes no sense nor is fair.

Proportional payouts paid the same value to all shares no matter how many a miner contributes in the round.

How about paying someone who mines the first 30% more than someone who mines the last 30%? That's what PROP does with hoppers.

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March 15, 2015, 12:01:18 AM
 #16

Hi,

I have just been looking down a list of Bitcoin Mining Pools and notice that absolutely none of them use the PROP payout system, This always seemed a popular payout system with regards to altcoins but not so much bitcoin?

I notice most use PPLNS. I have heard a lot about PPLNS being "unfair" but it has only ever served me good purpose in the past and increased my profits.

So if possible could someone tell me why there are no PROP pools?

Thanks

What is the PROP payout system ?

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os2sam
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March 15, 2015, 12:29:52 AM
 #17

So he want's to get paid the same if he mines the last 5% of a round as a person who mines 100% of the round?  That makes no sense nor is fair.

Proportional payouts paid the same value to all shares no matter how many a miner contributes in the round.

How about paying someone who mines the first 30% more than someone who mines the last 30%? That's what PROP does with hoppers.

It wouldn't matter under prop.  If the person mining the first 30% and the person mining last 30% of the round had the same hash rate and submitted the same number of shares they would get paid the same amount because all shares in a round would be paid the same amount.  There is no sliding scale or curve in Proportional, if there were it wouldn't be proportional then it would be called out of proportion payout method.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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March 15, 2015, 02:20:01 AM
 #18

It wouldn't matter under prop.  If the person mining the first 30% and the person mining last 30% of the round had the same hash rate and submitted the same number of shares they would get paid the same amount because all shares in a round would be paid the same amount.  There is no sliding scale or curve in Proportional, if there were it wouldn't be proportional then it would be called out of proportion payout method.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to multiple blocks. That's what happens with Prop, the Hoppers come and go based on how long the block is taking. By doing so, the Hoppers get paid more than the non-Hoppers. It's a known fact. Let me know if you need to see the mathematical proof for this.

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March 15, 2015, 03:02:28 AM
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It wouldn't matter under prop.  If the person mining the first 30% and the person mining last 30% of the round had the same hash rate and submitted the same number of shares they would get paid the same amount because all shares in a round would be paid the same amount.  There is no sliding scale or curve in Proportional, if there were it wouldn't be proportional then it would be called out of proportion payout method.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to multiple blocks. That's what happens with Prop, the Hoppers come and go based on how long the block is taking. By doing so, the Hoppers get paid more than the non-Hoppers. It's a known fact. Let me know if you need to see the mathematical proof for this.

No, you weren't clear.  Now I understand what you were trying to say.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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