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Author Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It  (Read 1495649 times)
lduck
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May 02, 2013, 03:06:16 PM
 #4221

...
No, not really. Not unless the value of AM is hype, in which case, we're selling to suckers and hoping nobody notices before the air goes out of the balloon.
...
WE are not selling. maybe few shareholders are selling, but not WE.  
everybody who bought shares in last few weeks of months was supposed to make homework before buying and then he would see, what level of information you can expect.
if you was expecting more and now you see your possible earnings differently, then sorry, but that is calling risk and you accepted it at buying.
if you bought at 0.1_something, and you are not satisfied with AM, you are free to sell for 10 times more than you spend. or you can organize voting about some change.
my point is, AM is not asking for any new investment, so posting  information every hour to make prices "fair" is not in the interest of EVERY shareholder. (as it cost men-hours) How much information get average shareholder of Google/Apple/... ?
on the other hand, we should probably know at least few of other people that are in board and around Friedcat. Or in some other way responsible for AM decisions.
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imsaguy
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May 02, 2013, 03:12:17 PM
 #4222

my point is, AM is not asking for any new investment, so posting  information every hour to make prices "fair" is not in the interest of EVERY shareholder. (as it cost men-hours) How much information get average shareholder of Google/Apple/... ?
on the other hand, I we should probably know at least few of other people that are in board and around Friedcat. Or in some other way responsible for AM decisions.

Google/Apple are required to submit financials at least quarterly and be independently audited at least yearly.  Obviously people bought into AM without having the same requirements.  Asking for expanded information from the few sentence 'updates' is fair.  How much effort does it really take to compose a paragraph write up about what you did over the past week or two and what your plan is for the next two or four weeks?  Don't even post it in English.  Post it in your native language and I'll sit with the translator to parse it myself.  I understand the fallacy with trying to plan too far in the future, but that doesn't mean you don't plan at all.

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May 02, 2013, 03:20:30 PM
 #4223

everybody who bought shares in last few weeks of months was supposed to make homework before buying and then he would see, what level of information you can expect.
if you was expecting more and now you see your possible earnings differently, then sorry, but that is calling risk and you accepted it at buying.
if you bought at 0.1_something, and you are not satisfied with AM, you are free to sell for 10 times more than you spend. or you can organize voting about some change.
my point is, AM is not asking for any new investment, so posting  information every hour to make prices "fair" is not in the interest of EVERY shareholder. (as it cost men-hours) How much information get average shareholder of Google/Apple/... ?

Actually, we don't know whether they are asking for new investment, which is sort of my point. Are they properly funded to cover investments for the next 5 months? Will they need another capital injection in a year?

I agree, though, that everyone needs to do their own math. It can be easy to get 'sucked in' when there is a board chanting in praise. Im' perfectly comfortable with the amount I paid for my shares and I'll sell when I feel the price is right. Right now, I do not know whether the price is right, which is why I would like more information, not about what friedcat had for dinner or when he goes to sleep, but what happens a month or two from now, even if five months is too long.

Look, they've just said they needed a ฿2,000.00 deposit for buying more ICs. That looks like at least the start of something, so why can't they disclose what those ICs are for? Are they for the bees? If so, how many? Are they for new blades? If so, when will they come online according to the plan? If ฿2K is a deposit, what is the full amount and when is it due?

Right now, it's looking very much like they need more funding at some point, and if so, how do they propose to get that funding? Sell more of the BF shares? Withold dividends? Use backup money?

I don't think these questions in any way are unreasonable from an investor as part of determining the value of the company.

on the other hand, we should probably know at least few of other people that are in board and around Friedcat. Or in some other way responsible for AM decisions.

Cool, that's another very valid question, for example (if they don't want to disclose personal details), what are the dead man's switch implementations at AM?

.b

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May 02, 2013, 03:27:34 PM
 #4224

Looking like 0.00735415/share this week
Confirmed 0.00735415

In fact its 0.00735416BTC per share. Im not sure why but all shareholders always drop the confirmation satoshi per share. Its not much of course but it is a satoshi... Smiley


Maybe not all - the PT shareholders don't get the satoshi Smiley

Yes, i noticed that... its a conspiracy between both PT-Issuers...  Grin

Escrow Service / Treuhandservice: No fee, but donations are welcome for sure Smiley Only send to the address i send you directly! / Keine Gebühr, Spenden sind natürlich willkommen Smiley Nur an die Adresse schicken die ich persönlich geschickt habe! | My Tip-Jar: 1Dk4Zc8iqurCTqbc1RtUkx3Wcr9bXLYyCT - Thanks a lot!
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May 02, 2013, 03:38:30 PM
 #4225

Seeing that a mere retention of some profits, which is expected to happen regularly, is causing so many worries, I would suggest friedcat to retain all profits from now on and release quarterly dividends, announcing the exact amount one week in advance.
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May 02, 2013, 03:39:52 PM
 #4226

my point is, AM is not asking for any new investment, so posting  information every hour to make prices "fair" is not in the interest of EVERY shareholder. (as it cost men-hours) How much information get average shareholder of Google/Apple/... ?
on the other hand, I we should probably know at least few of other people that are in board and around Friedcat. Or in some other way responsible for AM decisions.

Google/Apple are required to submit financials at least quarterly and be independently audited at least yearly.  Obviously people bought into AM without having the same requirements.  Asking for expanded information from the few sentence 'updates' is fair.  How much effort does it really take to compose a paragraph write up about what you did over the past week or two and what your plan is for the next two or four weeks?  Don't even post it in English.  Post it in your native language and I'll sit with the translator to parse it myself.  I understand the fallacy with trying to plan too far in the future, but that doesn't mean you don't plan at all.
they made statement about planing to have average 10% till the end of year. every percent  more AM will have in average for 2013 year is bonus. if someone expected more, because they mentioned they payed for mask(long time investment), and are planing to deliver 200TH/s(without mentioning when and without mentioning it was payed for it), then it is/was speculation. (-- I personally think all 200TH/s would not be online at the end of 2013, but that's just my speculation.)
so some plans are. we will see how they will end.

furuknap: they made statement that no more than 200000 shares will be sold. so there is just one real source of money for everything - mining. and it's hard to make any statement how many % they will use when BTC price is unstable.

I would like to see more information too, but I don't see why I would deserve it.
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May 02, 2013, 03:41:47 PM
 #4227

Seeing that a mere retention of some profits, which is expected to happen regularly, is causing so many worries, I would suggest friedcat to retain all profits from now on and release quarterly dividends, announcing the exact amount one week in advance.


What sense would this make? If asicminer would have to overtake other companies or would have other investing opportunities then i would say that makes sense. But till now the needed money for investment is only a small part of the created money. So it would be useless to stockpile huge amounts of bitcoins laying around. Thats fully different to other companies that could use this money for something.

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May 02, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
 #4228

Seeing that a mere retention of some profits, which is expected to happen regularly, is causing so many worries, I would suggest friedcat to retain all profits from now on and release quarterly dividends, announcing the exact amount beforehand.


The profit retention in itself isn't a cause for concern; heck we've been so pampered with regular dividends that we're having a massive circle-jerk party every Wednesday.

What is at least my cause for, for lack of a better word, worry, is that there is very little transparency in how Bitfountain operates. Whether they retained dividends and paid that once a quarter or every year is besides the point; if people can't predict whether their shares will be worth a certain amount with a range for speculation then dividend distribution times is rather uninteresting.

A funding need of ฿20K over the next 12 months, for example, would mean something like 30% off the current share prices at the level of dividends we receive now. That's why it's vital to understand whether that level is sustainable without further investment or if we've already acquired the necessary hardware or contracts to keep us hashing for the next few months.

.b

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May 02, 2013, 03:49:02 PM
 #4229

dont even mention that shit in connection to asicminer!! firedcat and his team are the most reputable and trustworthy people in bitcoin land. you probably have no idea whats going on here. asicminer has already paid back EVERYTHING from ipo and is just delivering massive profit after massive profit for their shareholders. share value in USD has appreciated by a factor greater than 100 since ipo. bitfountain is not selling any additional shares to the public. tell me, how the fuck can this be a scam?

LOL.  I used those same arguments when defending pirate.  He was highly trusted on -otc, was delivering on time every 3 days (and then every week), etc
 

I'm not saying we shouldn't trust friedcat, AM or Bitfountain. They may be perfectly honest, but the business behind it is too murky to effectively evaluate the company.

.b

I totally agree with you. I was just highlighting Mausini's slightly flawed thinking.

Who you trust and why is your decision to make. I was just pointing out that comparing friedcat to pirate is an absolute non-rational stupidity. You may want to have a look on wikipedia what a ponzi scheme is. it requires new investors to pay the old ones. how could friedcat do that, if everything he got from investors is already paid back in double and he never sold a share since ipo??? get your logic straight and dont spread flawed speculation from your gut feeling, because you trusted someone else and got screwed. Seriously, I dont mean to offend you, but that's just wrong.

Thank you!
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May 02, 2013, 03:50:04 PM
 #4230

furuknap: they made statement that no more than 200000 shares will be sold. so there is just one real source of money for everything - mining. and it's hard to make any statement how many % they will use when BTC price is unstable.

I would like to see more information too, but I don't see why I would deserve it.

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. If you or other investors have little information on how to evaluate the risk of that debt, then essentially it introduces more risk to you.

As for fluctuating BTC prices, again, that's impossible to predict because we have no idea how their debt is denominated. Do they pay employees in BTC or USD? Do they have exchange contracts to protect against fluctuating prices? Do they sell off a portion BTC each week and maintain a balance in RMB to pay for running costs denominated in local currency? The latter would be great in a falling market as is the case now, but not so great in a rising market, which has been the case in April.

No financials, no answers, huge risk.

.b

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May 02, 2013, 03:54:58 PM
 #4231

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me
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May 02, 2013, 03:58:03 PM
 #4232

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me

Ugh.  If you bought shares, then you own part of the company.  It isn't a loan.  Any dividends do not dilute your ownership share unless specified in the contract.

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May 02, 2013, 03:59:21 PM
 #4233

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me

In that case, I'll be happy to take your shares from you.

Of course you deserve it; the repayment isn't a 1:1 thing, it is a repayment based on the risk you took when you (possibly) bought into the IPO. Getting your money back 1:1 is pointless, nobody wants to buy ฿1 for ฿1 sometime in the future. That's not investment, that's an interest free loan.

.b

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May 02, 2013, 04:01:02 PM
 #4234

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me

Ugh.  If you bought shares, then you own part of the company.  It isn't a loan.  Any dividends do not dilute your ownership share unless specified in the contract.

Actually, share equity is debt to owners.

.b

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May 02, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
 #4235

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me

Ugh.  If you bought shares, then you own part of the company.  It isn't a loan.  Any dividends do not dilute your ownership share unless specified in the contract.

Actually, share equity is debt to owners.

.b

It'd be a bond if it were debt.  They sold shares.

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May 02, 2013, 04:03:29 PM
 #4236

Seeing that a mere retention of some profits, which is expected to happen regularly, is causing so many worries, I would suggest friedcat to retain all profits from now on and release quarterly dividends, announcing the exact amount one week in advance.


What sense would this make? If asicminer would have to overtake other companies or would have other investing opportunities then i would say that makes sense. But till now the needed money for investment is only a small part of the created money. So it would be useless to stockpile huge amounts of bitcoins laying around. Thats fully different to other companies that could use this money for something.

Yes, preserving the money is added risk. However, if what the shareholders want is predictability and accurate accounting, then I don't think that can work in weekly intervals. You need to pick one or the other. People are talking about Apple, as if what Apple is doing is transparently available to the shareholders in real-time.

Having said that, I'm sure we will receive a satisfactory post from friedcat when this phase of deployment is over. They have an insane amount of workload now.

A funding need of ฿20K over the next 12 months, for example, would mean something like 30% off the current share prices at the level of dividends we receive now. That's why it's vital to understand whether that level is sustainable without further investment or if we've already acquired the necessary hardware or contracts to keep us hashing for the next few months.

Good point. Not sure if even they know it yet though. Since the pass-through share price has increased so much, people are wondering whether they should sell or not. I understand the worry, but friedcat might not have the remedy yet. It's better to wait a few weeks more to start pestering.
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May 02, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
 #4237


Having said that, I'm sure we will receive a satisfactory post from friedcat when this phase of deployment is over. They have an insane amount of workload now.

In order for asicminer to maintain the level of network hashing that everyone keeps dreaming of, there will always be an insane amount of workload unless either more people are hired or the network hashrate vastly diminishes.

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May 02, 2013, 04:08:08 PM
 #4238

from contract:
"...Board members could ask for details of Bitfountain, as well as inspecting and monitoring our financials..."
I didn't find in contract any weekly updates, so strictly by contract I don't deserve even them.
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May 02, 2013, 04:11:17 PM
 #4239

Who you trust and why is your decision to make. I was just pointing out that comparing friedcat to pirate is an absolute non-rational stupidity. You may want to have a look on wikipedia what a ponzi scheme is. it requires new investors to pay the old ones. how could friedcat do that, if everything he got from investors is already paid back in double and he never sold a share since ipo??? get your logic straight and dont spread flawed speculation from your gut feeling, because you trusted someone else and got screwed. Seriously, I dont mean to offend you, but that's just wrong.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but we have no insight into how the company is run so there's no way to know whether this is exactly what happens. I trust friedcat until he proves I can't, I understand the strains of running a startup (I've done it multiple times myself), and I know it's difficult to cater to every whim an investor craves.

Nobody is claming friedcat, AM, or BF is in any way deceptive. Out story so far indicates the exact opposite; friedcat has been very forthcoming with information on a short-term basis. That's great, we're kept in the loop on day-to-day operations and that certainly has value.

AM has the makings of something really, really big. They are first movers, they have proven reliability in delivery, and they hash faster than anyone. This could very well be the next Apple, valued at hundreds of billions in five years.

However, it can also be the next complete and utter failure, not from any malice but from not anticipating some factor that we can't predict now.

My point is that AM can prove to the world that BTC investments are real, that they are valuable, and that we can play the game of big money. That game, however, is played with some predictability and with some plans longer than "I'll pay tomorrow once I get some sleep". That sleep is probably more deserved than anyone's has ever been, but for investors to even consider putting any real money into this game (and I'm not talking speculating in BTC/USD in general, I'm talking BTC investing) then we need to have a poster child for how an asset is run.

.b

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May 02, 2013, 04:14:10 PM
 #4240

You deserve it because you are effectively lending them your money based on the promise that they will be able to repay it at some point or that you can sell your debt on an open market. ...
From this point I do not deserve it, because they already repayed me

Ugh.  If you bought shares, then you own part of the company.  It isn't a loan.  Any dividends do not dilute your ownership share unless specified in the contract.

Actually, share equity is debt to owners.

.b

It'd be a bond if it were debt.  They sold shares.

Exactly.  The confusion may be because debt and equity are on the same side of the balance sheet.  But they are not the same thing.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_equation

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