ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[bones]

Jutarul,  yes i am very frustrated.  However thank you for helping answer some of these questions.  

Some points to add though:

1) Making a public statement saying that AM has enough capital to move forward regardless of BTC price,  on basically the eve of a make or break product,  while not having funding in place to produce said product, was EXTREMELY misleading.   People bought on that statement and made decisions on that statement.   No one was  thinking, that BE300 is going to get held up because of MONEY of all things.

The problem with words is that half the time they get misinterpreted. Just because a company stays in business, doesn't mean that they execute certain projects. Did google fail because they didn't bring google glasses to the mass market?

I can not agree more strongly with teek here, it was extremely misleading / total bull.
That statement should never have been made.

I would guess some people used the time to cash out, while we were kept in the dark.
It also seems ridiculous to me that anyone should state that the TO of BE300 costs should not have been seen as a necessity.
AM is a BTC mining venture, the core business relied on those funds being available to do the TO.

edited because i cant use quote properly....

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[Finksy]

The problem with words is that half the time they get misinterpreted. Just because a company stays in business, doesn't mean that they execute certain projects. Did google fail because they didn't bring google glasses to the mass market?

So if AM stays in business, but doesn't produce THEIR ONLY enterprise as was expected, what would they in business for? Rape victim call centre? A better analogy would have been if Google wrecklessly, secretly and misleadingly lost all of their technology-related business completely, and focused strictly on gardening.  That was a bullshit answer and everyone knows it, without mining hardware Bitquan is nothing but a shell. I doubt even the R&D is profitable if you don't produce chips yourselves.

Right now there seems to be some money stuck in accounts, only FC has access to.

You said it yourself. The name of the game is to get a net return on every BTC invested. That's what investors ultimately look for. FC was extremely aware of that point. BTC prices where still in the 370 USD range when sample chips got received. That's when the financing should have been secured (by funding the accounts). It didn't happen.

I don't know how to respond to that. FC is an adult and he was repeatedly asked to delegate and improve certain conditions. He didn't comply with the requests. The desolate state surrounding providing information to shareholders was no secret. What is more surprising in hindsight is that key people who worked with FC on a daily basis failed to see the signs, and if they were they failed in the same way. The Rockminer story is testament to that.

All of these answers pointing the finger at FC begs the question.  Who is responsible (or more importantly liable) for FC's actions? The same entity that profited from his actions while he was on their team, the company. If the company was not aware of his fraudulent activity and deceipt, that is their responsibility, and liability should not fall on the shareholders.  These were not market-related problems, and they were preventable.

[Blazed]

Group buy of BE300 chips anyone?

Back in the days of Avalon chips there were group buys that accumulated that kind of money. I think there could be people interested in buying raw chips in order to turn them into miners. That being said, $10M is a lot of money, man.

The Avalon chips turned into a disaster and people lost out due to shady Avalon. You are telling me you would trust AM with a pre order of any type? Amazing how people never learn...

[mr_e]

A quick update re:AMHash

There is a good chance that contract holders will get a significant portion of their principal back. The details are currently being worked out. Please understand that there is currently a lot of blame shifting going on, but AM management shows an active interest in breaking the gridlock in order to be able to concentrate on getting the business back on track.

Right now I'd like to provide the following clues
a) You will not get 100% on the principal amount. While this may hurt AMHash buyers, please note that AM is certainly not making a profit from this failed product in any way.
b) If you consider litigation or are in talks with a lawyer, you may want to wait this one out. Chances are that after taking into account the cost of litigation or lawyer fees you end up with less %. Also the contractual situation is very complex - you may end up suing the wrong company.
c) You may have to prove your contract. Please make sure that you got proper documentation ready. However, if you hold a contract through one of the platforms, there may be a consolidated method which doesn't require proof.
d) If AM recovers from this crisis, there may be more coming down the pipeline for affected people in form of discounts.

I'd like to remind everyone that I am not a company representative, which means I cannot warrant for the correctness of the information provided. Unfortunately the company cannot announce anything until the details have been worked out. Act accordingly.

Also, if you'd be so nice and cross post this to inform AMHash holders - I don't have a map for where AMHash was marketed.

Thank-you Jutarul for the update, look forward to seeing how much we will be given back for our Amhash shares.

[Tigggger]

Thank-you Jutarul for the update, look forward to seeing how much we will be given back for our Amhash shares.

I'll start the bidding

33,461 @ BTC0.1

*Please note that my offer is 0.1 total not per share.

[lophie]

Thank-you Jutarul for the update, look forward to seeing how much we will be given back for our Amhash shares.

I'll start the bidding

33,461 @ BTC0.1

*Please note that my offer is 0.1 total not per share.

Are doing trying a badly constructed joke?

[elasticband]

Thank-you Jutarul for the update, look forward to seeing how much we will be given back for our Amhash shares.

I'll start the bidding

33,461 @ BTC0.1

*Please note that my offer is 0.1 total not per share.

Divs paid back to IPO shareholders give a 35% return from amhash investment.

So expect anything from 0 - 65% back. I doubt they will go over the amount paid back to date. So sorry for anyone who bought during a high.

just my speculation

[elasticband]

Thank-you Jutarul for the update, look forward to seeing how much we will be given back for our Amhash shares.

I'll start the bidding

33,461 @ BTC0.1

*Please note that my offer is 0.1 total not per share.

Divs paid back to IPO shareholders give a 35% return from amhash investment.

So expect anything from 0 - 65% back. I doubt they will go over the amount paid back to date. So sorry for anyone who bought during a high.

just my speculation

Don't expect to much, it will be closer to 0% than to 65%.
Since these shares bought part of the future mining revenue of the mining farm, hence the mining farm is gone...

Its AM & RM's job to maintain and look after the mine and keep it functioning.
Had they been honest about how the mine was setup and functioning, where its cheap power was coming from, would they have sold 3.6PH........ they lied and cheated people out of their money...... the honest thing for AM to do at this point would be make some kind of settlement offer.

[Holographic]

A quick update re:AMHash

There is a good chance that contract holders will get a significant portion of their principal back. The details are currently being worked out. Please understand that there is currently a lot of blame shifting going on, but AM management shows an active interest in breaking the gridlock in order to be able to concentrate on getting the business back on track.

Right now I'd like to provide the following clues
a) You will not get 100% on the principal amount. While this may hurt AMHash buyers, please note that AM is certainly not making a profit from this failed product in any way.
b) If you consider litigation or are in talks with a lawyer, you may want to wait this one out. Chances are that after taking into account the cost of litigation or lawyer fees you end up with less %. Also the contractual situation is very complex - you may end up suing the wrong company.
c) You may have to prove your contract. Please make sure that you got proper documentation ready. However, if you hold a contract through one of the platforms, there may be a consolidated method which doesn't require proof.
d) If AM recovers from this crisis, there may be more coming down the pipeline for affected people in form of discounts.

I'd like to remind everyone that I am not a company representative, which means I cannot warrant for the correctness of the information provided. Unfortunately the company cannot announce anything until the details have been worked out. Act accordingly.

Also, if you'd be so nice and cross post this to inform AMHash holders - I don't have a map for where AMHash was marketed.

As a long time AM shareholder, it feels really shit to see all this focus on AMhash, and how they might get something back. Why the fuck is AM shareholders not the main focus here? After all we are the original investors who got the company running in the first place. I guess I should have listened to my gut feeling and sold all shares as soon as FC started dicking around with Rockminer and other similar ventures to siphon off profits. I honestly feel this started out as a legit company and investment, but ever since Rockminer, Datatank, AMhash and all the other bullshit, it's quite clear the main focus was not profit for original AM shareholders, but siphoning whatever profits off to other entities.

IMHO, it feels like this turned out to be a long, drawn out, exit scam.

[gogxmagog]

I agree with holographic on this one. We still don't know where FC is, what really happened. We know nothing. He's gone and AM is dead. AMhash was just a sideline. Wouldn't have existed if AM never had.
Why are people now thanking jutural for speculative "promises" about getting money back? He's a board member ffs if he knows anything, which I doubt, he should know what really went on and obviously had been going on since around the time dividends stopped from AM. That's when AM should have liquidated, but I guess FC and co. Wanted to grab a few final btc before fucking off into the night.
Anyway, we know one thing for sure, there is officially not a single honest btc security. Nada, they are all fucking shams.

[Chris_Sabian]

I agree with holographic on this one. We still don't know where FC is, what really happened. We know nothing. He's gone and AM is dead. AMhash was just a sideline. Wouldn't have existed if AM never had.
Why are people now thanking jutural for speculative "promises" about getting money back? He's a board member ffs if he knows anything, which I doubt, he should know what really went on and obviously had been going on since around the time dividends stopped from AM. That's when AM should have liquidated, but I guess FC and co. Wanted to grab a few final btc before fucking off into the night.
Anyway, we know one thing for sure, there is officially not a single honest btc security. Nada, they are all fucking shams.

+1000

[Blazed]

They are focusing on AMHash because is easier to sue over. People paid for a service and got blatantly ripped off. AM itself was an investment with no guarantees, and did make IPO buyers a profit. AM never made guarantees about succeeding or not... it was a gamble from day 1. AMHash stated they had the hash power etc...then it was "stolen"  . That is probably the only reason they want to satisfy the AMHash people.

[Mabsark]

Given the known problems with AM's hardware, I'm starting to wonder if they didn't just catch fire. That seems like a more plausible explanation than them being "stolen".

[Blazed]

Given the known problems with AM's hardware, I'm starting to wonder if they didn't just catch fire. That seems like a more plausible explanation than them being "stolen".

lol...I am thinking that we will never know what really happened. I think that they should make the AMHash people whole or close to it. AM actually did well for IPO buyers compared to all the other scams out there. I really do not think they wanted to scam from the start. They killed it on gen 1 and just couldn't compete because it was a 1 man show. FC is pretty much to blame for not letting go of some of the control..I have seen other businesses do the same thing.

[supert]

Can I just say: fuck.

[Cablez]

Can I just say: fuck.

Sure but it won't fix this inside clusterf&*k.

[RoadStress]

I guess I should have listened to my gut feeling and sold all shares as soon as FC started dicking around with Rockminer and other similar ventures to siphon off profits. I honestly feel this started out as a legit company and investment, but ever since Rockminer, Datatank, AMhash and all the other bullshit, it's quite clear the main focus was not profit for original AM shareholders, but siphoning whatever profits off to other entities.

I have presented this point of view in summer also. I was called various names for this idea. Thanks for proving me right.

Offtopic P.S. Yes yes it's another "I told you so" moment. Move along.

[btct22]

I've been looking over my BTC bookmark list where I had a list of notables to watch for investment and info purposes.  All the people on my list incl. friedcat, ukyo, kslaughter, bitsyncom, graet etc have all ended up being less than upstanding citizens.  It is really a shame.  

As a learning experience it has been valuable, and hopefully it provides an incentive for future projects to implement blockchain based investor protection mechanisms.  

I just had an idea for cloud mining schemes - would there be a way of making the fee to the hashing provider dependent on the completion of an agreed term with a multi sig transaction?  eg I buy 1BTC's worth of agreed hash rate, which the mining pool pays out to the multisig address, then at the end of the term I get the mining output sent to me and the hash provider gets their fee?    If the hashing stops halfway through I get my fee refunded plus the mining output.  That's also a way of betting on the network speed via the return of investment for the hash provider as I would hope to get more than my fee back.  There may also need to be some kind of oracle involved in confirming the hash rate was as high as promised.   I'm not sure if something like this has already been done before?

EDIT: Have moved discussion about this idea to a new topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=998021.new#new

[Puppet]

I just had an idea for cloud mining schemes - would there be a way of making the fee to the hashing provider dependent on the completion of an agreed term with a multi sig transaction?  eg I buy 1BTC's worth of agreed hash rate, which the mining pool pays out to the multisig address, then at the end of the term I get the mining output sent to me and the hash provider gets their fee?  

Cloudmining companies would have to cough all the investment, pay ongoing costs and not get a dime until the completion of the contract. No one would do that.

Maybe you could do something with smart contracts, that pay out  automatically in function of difficulty, btc price and some agreed upon fee structure, but its hard for me to see how you can avoid having ~2x the money at stake in escrow some place or in the blockchain. After all, theoretically the contract could become worthless, so the seller must have a guarantee (your money in escrow) and the contract could pay out many times the purchase price over time, so the buyer would need a non trivial fraction of that in escrow as guarantee as well.

[iCEBREAKER]

AM's 40nm design missed its spec by a lot.  HF's GN1 28nm exceeded it's spec and the GN1.5 respin will be even better.

The fact that AM failed and still came out with a superior chip is quite the achievement.

So jimmothy, how's that "achievement" working out for you now?

I really doubt this is a scam because AM/FC has shown integrity matters more than profit time and time again (200 btc fee returned, prisma refunds, etc) , however the lack of professionalism cannot be ignored. Even if they do somehow make it out of this mess, I hope FC steps down and replaces himself with someone more qualified.

You were scammed by AM. Your money is gone.

Did you enjoy being in the denial stage with regards to AM for the last year?