ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[DiabloD3]

The ASIC chips used in Avalon and AM is different - actually I remember correctly AM is using the older 110nm chips while Avalon uses the slightly newer chip at 70+-nm.

And yes, I can read Chinese for god's sake. 

90 iirc

[1713282942]

1713282942

[John (John K.)]

The ASIC chips used in Avalon and AM is different - actually I remember correctly AM is using the older 110nm chips while Avalon uses the slightly newer chip at 70+-nm.

And yes, I can read Chinese for god's sake. 

90 iirc

I fail, sorry. 

[freedomno1]

Fractional ASICMINER shares are now available at Havelock Investments as well. https://www.havelockinvestments.com/order.php?symbol=ASICM

They are selling like hotcakes, but don't worry, I'm replenishing as fast I can!

They are selling like hotcakes at this rate that board seat may be close

[mrb]

The ASIC chips used in Avalon and AM is different - actually I remember correctly AM is using the older 110nm chips while Avalon uses the slightly newer chip at 70+-nm.

And yes, I can read Chinese for god's sake. 

90 iirc

I fail, sorry. 

You both fail

Avalon = 110nm
AM = 130nm

[helixone]

Gibberish

I'm somewhat convinced you have no idea what you are saying.

Right now, you are claiming that somewhere in a Chinese web page is evidence that Dr Zhang is involved in highly dubious and most likely criminal activities and that the result is what we're seeing with ASICMiner's success.

If that is so, and you can provide evidence it is so, then ASICMiner would suffer a catastrophic crash once this evidence came to light. That is why what you are saying is extremely serious, and if there is such evidence, that it is extremely important that you help us find and interpret that evidence.

Can you provide us with a link to a specific web page, Chinese or otherwise, that backs up your claims?

If not, I suggest you calm down, stop making such accusations or at least realize that it is the one that makes a claim that bears the burden of evidence, and then come back in a while.

Please understand that we're only trying to find out whether there is any shred of truth in your claims, not attack you.

.b

Please educate me and the crew. You are stating that if it was proved that AM had an unfair market advantage it would hurt the stock price. What are all of us missing? (Although I knows nothing about Chinese culture, I kinda hope the new guy is right.)

-helixone

[furuknap]

Please educate me and the crew. You are stating that if it was proved that AM had an unfair market advantage it would hurt the stock price. What are all of us missing? (Although I knows nothing about Chinese culture, I kinda hope the new guy is right.)

What would you think if it turned out that for example the perceived best cyclist in the world became the best by cheating and using unethical means to achieve the wins?

How would you feel about ASICMiner if it turned out that their success was the result of a scam, in this case a competitor's key insider leaking information or hampering his own company's progress?

If it turned out that ASICMiner's success was the result of cheating or unlawful behavior, that means that as soon as that cheating or unlawful behavior was exposed and stopped, their success would also stop.

Thus: Cheating exposed would ruin ASICMiner share prices.

As it turns out, the person claiming this probably wasn't aware of what they were saying and probably didn't intend to cause such suspicions, but to make absolutely sure there wasn't a shred of truth in the accusations, I had to ask :-)

.b

[louong]

How would you feel about ASICMiner if it turned out that their success was the result of a scam, in this case a competitor's key insider leaking information or hampering his own company's progress?

If it turned out that ASICMiner's success was the result of cheating or unlawful behavior, that means that as soon as that cheating or unlawful behavior was exposed and stopped, their success would also stop.

Thus: Cheating exposed would ruin ASICMiner share prices.

Not sure if anyone was jumping to the conclusion that Avalon helping ASICMiner would be "cheating" or "unlawful behaviour" or a "scam"? Companies which have been competitors (i.e. Apple and Microsoft, Apple and Samsung) have also collaborated together, but is that considered "cheating"?

Also, the market dictates share prices. I for one would hope someone dumps shares based on any rumours that Avalon is collaborating with ASICMiner. If Avalon is collaborating and working with ASICMiner then that only helps ASICMINER. Performance and hashrate will override personal opinions.

[romerun]

It sure will ruin Avalon, not another way around.

Please educate me and the crew. You are stating that if it was proved that AM had an unfair market advantage it would hurt the stock price. What are all of us missing? (Although I knows nothing about Chinese culture, I kinda hope the new guy is right.)

What would you think if it turned out that for example the perceived best cyclist in the world became the best by cheating and using unethical means to achieve the wins?

How would you feel about ASICMiner if it turned out that their success was the result of a scam, in this case a competitor's key insider leaking information or hampering his own company's progress?

If it turned out that ASICMiner's success was the result of cheating or unlawful behavior, that means that as soon as that cheating or unlawful behavior was exposed and stopped, their success would also stop.

Thus: Cheating exposed would ruin ASICMiner share prices.

As it turns out, the person claiming this probably wasn't aware of what they were saying and probably didn't intend to cause such suspicions, but to make absolutely sure there wasn't a shred of truth in the accusations, I had to ask :-)

.b

[helixone]

Please educate me and the crew. You are stating that if it was proved that AM had an unfair market advantage it would hurt the stock price. What are all of us missing? (Although I knows nothing about Chinese culture, I kinda hope the new guy is right.)

What would you think if it turned out that for example the perceived best cyclist in the world became the best by cheating and using unethical means to achieve the wins?

How would you feel about ASICMiner if it turned out that their success was the result of a scam, in this case a competitor's key insider leaking information or hampering his own company's progress?

If it turned out that ASICMiner's success was the result of cheating or unlawful behavior, that means that as soon as that cheating or unlawful behavior was exposed and stopped, their success would also stop.

Thus: Cheating exposed would ruin ASICMiner share prices.

As it turns out, the person claiming this probably wasn't aware of what they were saying and probably didn't intend to cause such suspicions, but to make absolutely sure there wasn't a shred of truth in the accusations, I had to ask :-)

.b

Although I don't believe this is the case, if I (everyone) found out it was true, what really is there to stop it? Realistically, the price of AM would spike, as there are no regulations to stop it. Taking a step back, on a personal level I'd like to think that I am investing in a company that can just "win" based on their technical strengths, but as an investor, I am ok with this theory. (I'd not want to be a US investor in Avalon Inc, or a potential buyer of Avalon equipment.)

IE: I think this rumor is hogwash, because Friedcat seems a great fellow that I'd love to take out for beers, but I think if it were true, as shareholders, we should sorta be celebrating, and hoping there is some truth to this rumor.

-helixone

[furuknap]

Not sure if anyone was jumping to the conclusion that Avalon helping ASICMiner would be "cheating" or "unlawful behaviour" or a "scam"? Companies which have been competitors (i.e. Apple and Microsoft, Apple and Samsung) have also collaborated together, but is that considered "cheating"?

In this case, Dr Zhang is a primary insider, and the claim was that Dr Zhang had ties to and sat on the board of ASCIMiner and that because of this, Avalon was delayed in deliveries somehow. In other words, a primary insider in Avalon was hampering Avalon's deliveries to benefit ASICMiner.

I'm sure you can see why this would be a huge problem for the credibility of AM, regardless of whether this is illegal in certain jurisdictions. I am not a lawyer and have no idea how corporate laws are in China, but at the very least it would cause problems for investors outside of China where this would be highly unethical and cause for legal action.

This isn't a case of getting a little help; this is a case of Microsoft getting insider information from the a member of the board of directors in Apple and using that information to launch iPhone 6 or whatever the next number is.

Also, the market dictates share prices. I for one would hope someone dumps shares based on any rumours that Avalon is collaborating with ASICMiner. If Avalon is collaborating and working with ASICMiner then that only helps ASICMINER. Performance and hashrate will override personal opinions.

And if the market believed the performance was based on an unfair advantage? See how the market treated Lance Armstrong after he was caught cheating.

Would you still want to buy shares, knowing that the results you've seen until now is not going to last after the cheating is exposed?

I believe the matter is closed, though, so no point in pursuing further speculation. The poster admitted, as I interpret it, to not knowing of any evidence to support his speculation.

.b

[furuknap]

It sure will ruin Avalon, not another way around.

And you think Avalon would just say "Oh, dang, well, let's move on..." after that? They would rip AM a new one in any jurisdiction of any civilized country, probably shutting down AM forever.

At the very least, they could sue for any revenue AM has made.

.b

[furuknap]

Although I don't believe this is the case, if I (everyone) found out it was true, what really is there to stop it?

You mean like a court of law? Again, I have no idea how the legal system works in China, but I imagine that any lawyer would have a field day if it turned out AM had earned millions from someone in Avalon leaking information or manipulating Avalon's results.

.b

[hak8or]

I personally feel that if you are looking at such a possible situation based on only, and absolutely nothing else, how much money you make by being an asicminer shareholder, then ASICminer collaborating with avalon in such a manner would be only a good thing. I feel that most other shareholders would feel the same, assuming they care only about gains by being a shareholder. If such an act is moral or immoral is a totally other topic of discussion which can last hours, even more so once you realize many have different definitions of moral.

If ASICminer was found to be using legal yet still considered by some unethical practices to put them in a VERY advantageous, then I sure as heck would buy more shares from them for the short term. Looking at the longterm is more difficult regardless of whatever situation you are looking at. It would make me more money, it would be illogical of me, as well as probably others as well, to sell at a tanking price when ASICminer will be doing so well due to their advantage.

I personally do not feel that the market would sell shares of ASICminer if they were to be found to be collaborating with Avalon in such a manner, and I feel even more strongly that the shares would not fall in value catastrophically if such information were to be found. Also, I am very doubtful of this rumor being true, just as furuknap said. If Asicminer were making their own ic's, why would they be buying from avalon? Maybe to satisfy a very strong demand for short term hash rate increases, but otherwise it does not make sense. Based on how large ASICminer's needs are for hashrate, it makes sense for them to design and fab their own chips.

[furuknap]

I personally feel that if you are looking at such a possible situation based on only, and absolutely nothing else, how much money you make by being an asicminer shareholder, then ASICminer collaborating with avalon in such a manner would be only a good thing.

This isn't a matter of collaboration. This is a claim that someone deep inside Avalon covertly working for ASICMiner and holding back Avalon shipping to benefit ASICMiner. In other words, purposely hurting Avalon so ASCIMiner could gain an advantage.

And you would have no problems with that because you think it could make more money? Do you not understand the gravity of such accusations were they to be found even remotely possible?

Just for anyone visiting this thread later: These claims were probably made in error and there is no evidence of any wrong-doing in this.

.b

[louong]

In this case, Dr Zhang is a primary insider, and the claim was that Dr Zhang had ties to and sat on the board of ASCIMiner and that because of this, Avalon was delayed in deliveries somehow. In other words, a primary insider in Avalon was hampering Avalon's deliveries to benefit ASICMiner.

I'm sure you can see why this would be a huge problem for the credibility of AM, regardless of whether this is illegal in certain jurisdictions. I am not a lawyer and have no idea how corporate laws are in China, but at the very least it would cause problems for investors outside of China where this would be highly unethical and cause for legal action.

This isn't a case of getting a little help; this is a case of Microsoft getting insider information from the a member of the board of directors in Apple and using that information to launch iPhone 6 or whatever the next number is.

Not sure why we are being so reactive or twitchy over this unsubstantiated rumour? Unless somehow we buy into it? I think we have to consider the source of this rumour and do some thinking. Is it more or less likely that the people would be unethical? Is it more or less likely that companies will even have the time to collaborate yet in this startup/wild west environment?

Also, do we know that someone is getting inside information from someone else? Or are we just making unfounded assumptions?

Basically, this should be a non-issue unless there is proof. Responding to such rumours/trolling only give them more legs.

I was just making the point that if the two companies collaborated, I'm not sure how that could be considered "illegal" or detrimental to the share price. Companies collaborate all the time, and as a shareowner of ASICMINER, if there is a positive outcome from a collaboration, I welcome it.

And if the market believed the performance was based on an unfair advantage? See how the market treated Lance Armstrong after he was caught cheating.

Would you still want to buy shares, knowing that the results you've seen until now is not going to last after the cheating is exposed?

I believe the matter is closed, though, so no point in pursuing further speculation. The poster admitted, as I interpret it, to not knowing of any evidence to support his speculation.

.b

Using Lance Armstrong to compare to this situation probably isn't the right analogy. Probably you could use the analogy of IBM and Microsoft in the early PC days.

Also, what is one's definition of "unfair advantage"? Someone looking at ASICMINER right now as a potential shareholder would conclude that ASICMINER has an "unfair advantage". They have proven, demonstrable hash rates with mining, and concrete products that are shipping out right NOW - with warranties. Compared to the competition, they are killing them with this two-pronged approach. Should we ask ASICMINER to reduce their "unfair advantage"?

Should we not separate our own personal opinions on what is "unfair advantage" and just let the market dictate things?

[hak8or]

This isn't a matter of collaboration. This is a claim that someone deep inside Avalon covertly working for ASICMiner and holding back Avalon shipping to benefit ASICMiner. In other words, purposely hurting Avalon so ASCIMiner could gain an advantage.

And you would have no problems with that because you think it could make more money? Do you not understand the gravity of such accusations were they to be found even remotely possible?

Ah, I was under the impression that the idea was that ASICminer and Avalon as a company were secretly in a collaboration to give priority to asicminer orders over normal orders, not that someone in Avalon was doing this without Avalon's collective permission. In which case, attorneys ahoy!

I guess I am not sure of the possible implications, care to say what you think could happen to cause people to loose interest in Asicminer? Also, please remember that I said in the short term, not in the long term.

Also, like the previous poster said,
Just for anyone visiting this thread later: These claims were probably made in error and there is no evidence of any wrong-doing in this.
This idea floating around was formed by a random poster who has no ties with either companies and the poster did not even state this as a rumor, but as his personal theory!

[helixone]

I personally feel that if you are looking at such a possible situation based on only, and absolutely nothing else, how much money you make by being an asicminer shareholder, then ASICminer collaborating with avalon in such a manner would be only a good thing.

This isn't a matter of collaboration. This is a claim that someone deep inside Avalon covertly working for ASICMiner and holding back Avalon shipping to benefit ASICMiner. In other words, purposely hurting Avalon so ASCIMiner could gain an advantage.

And you would have no problems with that because you think it could make more money? Do you not understand the gravity of such accusations were they to be found even remotely possible?

Just for anyone visiting this thread later: These claims were probably made in error and there is no evidence of any wrong-doing in this.

.b

(My apologies to the room for feeding the troll)

Furuknap, just read this before saying too much more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China#Difficulties

I suggest we stop polluting friedcat's thread with unbased theories. He's been kicking A$$, and I don't want his stock to bubble above it's true value based on some whackamole theory. (I want cheap AM shares for as long as we can get them.)

Please let this one go.

-helixone

[furuknap]

Also, what is one's definition of "unfair advantage"? Someone looking at ASICMINER right now as a potential shareholder would conclude that ASICMINER has an "unfair advantage". They have proven, demonstrable hash rates with mining, and concrete products that are shipping out right NOW - with warranties. Compared to the competition, they are killing them with this two-pronged approach. Should we ask ASICMINER to reduce their "unfair advantage"?

Should we not separate our own personal opinions on what is "unfair advantage" and just let the market dictate things?

Unfair advantage in this case is a nice way of saying stealing technologies or cheating. In this case, AM would have achieved their proven, demonstrable hashrates and concrete products because they got someone in Avalon to screw with Avalon.

It is not a matter of personal opinion any more than manslaughter would be open to interpreting whether there was actually any 'slaughtering' involved.

There's no point in beating a dead horse; there's no evidence of wrong-doing, and I'm sure that a lot of people would be freaking out far more than they are if there was anything substantiated in these rumors.

Let's just move on and enjoy our piles of ethically and legally earned dividend Bitcoins!

.b

[louong]

Unfair advantage in this case is a nice way of saying stealing technologies or cheating. In this case, AM would have achieved their proven, demonstrable hashrates and concrete products because they got someone in Avalon to screw with Avalon.

Yeah, but Avalon screwing with Avalon doesn't even make financial sense. The rumour was not very believable, but Avalon screwing itself at the expense of another company is even less so.

Anyway, agreed let's just move on.

[furuknap]

I guess I am not sure of the possible implications, care to say what you think could happen to cause people to loose interest in Asicminer? Also, please remember that I said in the short term, not in the long term.

Short term, what would you think the following headline on Reddit would do to share prices: "US$50 million lawsuit from Avalon against ASICMiner over corporate espionage! ASICMiner operation seized by Chinese government."

This idea floating around was formed by a random poster who has no ties with either companies and the poster did not even state this as a rumor, but as his personal theory!

Well, he did actually claim that a Chinese web page had evidence of this collusion, or at least it could easily be interpreted that way, possibly due to poor English written skills. This is why I asked for clarification so that we could make absolutely sure and hear it from the claimer that there is no such evidence.

He later confirmed, as I interpret his post, that there is no such evidence and he did not intend to bring Dr Zhang into this or suggest that Dr Zhang had any covert interest in ASICMiner.

This horse is dead, there is no evidence of any wrong-doing, and yes, let's stop polluting this thread with "Ya'know, I'd be fine with this as long as it made me money" posts.

Look! What's that shiny thing over there! I think it's today's dividend money! Let's go roll in it!

.b