ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[ThickAsThieves]

Fee's mostly.

Yeah helpfull answer..
Someone care to explain, pros and cons from buying from one or the other?

One sells whole shares, one sells partial shares.  Burnside's has been operational longer... and takes less in fees.  TAT is newer, but the smaller units let you take advantage of compounding interest in a way with dividend reinvestment, although TAT has higher fees.

Personally I have holdings in DIRECT shares, Burnside, and TAT.  I avoided Bitfunder because I do not like their system...

How does one get hold of direct shares?
So which has proven to pay out more?

They all pay relatively the same dividends. The TAT ones withhold 5% of dividends as a management fee. However, please note that this is 5% of divs, not 5% of share value. It would take like a year in 5% div fees to get to 5% of share value, possibly longer.

That is a math detail I've been meaning to clear up. Please take the time to actually figure out how much 5% div fees might cost before ignoring TAT shares. Sometimes getting a TAT share 1% cheaper than elsewhere can erase the worry of 5% div fees for the short term. I know it's a little complicated, but do the math and you'll see what I mean!

[aahzmundus]

Fee's mostly.

Yeah helpfull answer..
Someone care to explain, pros and cons from buying from one or the other?

One sells whole shares, one sells partial shares.  Burnside's has been operational longer... and takes less in fees.  TAT is newer, but the smaller units let you take advantage of compounding interest in a way with dividend reinvestment, although TAT has higher fees.

Personally I have holdings in DIRECT shares, Burnside, and TAT.  I avoided Bitfunder because I do not like their system...

How does one get hold of direct shares?
So which has proven to pay out more?

They all pay the same except TAT which charges a 5% fee.

Direct shares are purchased OTC from someone who holds them, look in the marketplace for an Auction, Usually if someone is holding an auction they post here notifying people.    Unless you have 50+btc to invest, stick to the PT at BTCT.  Direct shares are for bigger players with larger holdings (usually people who got in early, and cheep).  Direct share transfers are done manually by friedcat... and usually involve escrow, so they can take days to a week to do a trade.  If you go onto BTCT you can get shares in less then an hour.

Burnside's PT will pay out more, but TAT still again has the advantage if you plan to use dividend reinvestment, or cant afford a full share.

[SmiGueL]

Because the API from Blockchain.info isn't working yet (I've asked them for a fix in their topic) I'm updating my charts with the 'Known blocks' info on their Pools page:
http://blockchain.info/pools
_{Mined blocks by Asicminer divived by total mined blocks = network percentage of Solomining
There are about 10% Unknown mined blocks not included in this list, but these compensate with the fact that the network is mining more than 144 blocks/day because of the 'delayed' difficulty.}

Added to all the other pools gives a total hashrate of ~22 TH/s
_{I know the values from solomining are not 100% exact, and can theoretically be way off from the actual hashrate.
But in the end it are the mined blocks that counts, so using the mined blocks to estimate the hashrate isn't a bad idea at all}

[SebastianJu]

Is there a place where you can get info about obtaining ASICminer shares?

You might check out the last link in my sig... comparison of AM-Shares and so on... there are the diffs you search...

[Lauda]

Fee's mostly.

Yeah helpfull answer..
Someone care to explain, pros and cons from buying from one or the other?

One sells whole shares, one sells partial shares.  Burnside's has been operational longer... and takes less in fees.  TAT is newer, but the smaller units let you take advantage of compounding interest in a way with dividend reinvestment, although TAT has higher fees.

Personally I have holdings in DIRECT shares, Burnside, and TAT.  I avoided Bitfunder because I do not like their system...

How does one get hold of direct shares?
So which has proven to pay out more?

They all pay the same except TAT which charges a 5% fee.

Direct shares are purchased OTC from someone who holds them, look in the marketplace for an Auction, Usually if someone is holding an auction they post here notifying people.    Unless you have 50+btc to invest, stick to the PT at BTCT.  Direct shares are for bigger players with larger holdings (usually people who got in early, and cheep).  Direct share transfers are done manually by friedcat... and usually involve escrow, so they can take days to a week to do a trade.  If you go onto BTCT you can get shares in less then an hour.

Burnside's PT will pay out more, but TAT still again has the advantage if you plan to use dividend reinvestment, or cant afford a full share.

Thanks a lot, this is what I needed to know for now.

[freedomno1]

Looks like a pyramid

[237]

Looks like a pyramid

Definately a pyramid. And to keep it plausible they created ASICs on the way, which they ship all over the world and have bought
80k 7950s to produce the fake hashrate over months

[Lauda]

Looks like a pyramid

Definately a pyramid. And to keep it plausible they created ASICs on the way, which they ship all over the world and have bought
80k 7950s to produce the fake hashrate over months

Lmao pyramid..

[freedomno1]

Ah was referring to the deleted post with a lot of ...'s but that works
Interesting new trust bar

[CMMPro]

Fee's mostly.

Yeah helpfull answer..
Someone care to explain, pros and cons from buying from one or the other?

What did you want? Someone to hold your hand while you browsed? Lol.

Go read each funds prospectus...the fee's are explained.


TL;DR ASICMiner-PT has no fee's, all the others have 5% or so fee's.

[ThickAsThieves]

Fee's mostly.

Yeah helpfull answer..
Someone care to explain, pros and cons from buying from one or the other?

What did you want? Someone to hold your hand while you browsed? Lol.

Go read each funds prospectus...the fee's are explained.


TL;DR ASICMiner-PT has no fee's, all the others have 5% or so fee's.

That is an incorrect oversimplification. But yes, one should read the prospectus of each asset carefully before purchasing.

[Eric Muyser]

What did you want? Someone to hold your hand while you browsed? Lol.

Go read each funds prospectus...the fee's are explained.


TL;DR ASICMiner-PT has no fee's, all the others have 5% or so fee's.

That is an incorrect oversimplification. But yes, one should read the prospectus of each asset carefully before purchasing.

Yah dude, TAT is awesome at only 5% of the dividends. Try not to misguide.

[AMuppInTime]

What did you want? Someone to hold your hand while you browsed? Lol.

Go read each funds prospectus...the fee's are explained.


TL;DR ASICMiner-PT has no fee's, all the others have 5% or so fee's.

That is an incorrect oversimplification. But yes, one should read the prospectus of each asset carefully before purchasing.

Yah dude, TAT is awesome at only 5% of the dividends. Try not to misguide.

TAT: Takes 5% of profits + does NOT let you convert into Direct shares.
I'm staying the hell away from that one.

ASICMINER-PT: no tax on divs, can convert to direct share, Burnside is more than a name (he runs the best known BTC exchange: https://btct.co/)
only issue is you need to pay 2.5BTC to buy one share nowadays... But there is more security, dividends and flexibility in the long and the short run.


*Edit* I'm stating facts, if you're happy with it good for you. I think a 1/100th share is a great idea, but not with the current TAT setup.
Plenty of people seem to have chanted the coming of a certain pirateat40 in the past, only to get burnt afterwards (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102079.160) - in a digital world with money involved, I'd be weary of what I invest in. And I think cautious advice is a mean well advice, I'm not here to trash the share - I like the idea but the terms don't work currently.

TAT, if you offered the opportunity to exchange for direct shares, that would be a great first step IMO.

[gramma]

TAT: Takes 5% of profits + does NOT let you convert into Direct shares.
I'm staying the hell away from that one.

ASICMINER-PT: no tax on divs, can convert to direct share, Burnside is more than a name (he runs the best known BTC exchange: https://btct.co/)
only issue is you need to pay 2.5BTC to buy one share nowadays... But there is more security, dividends and flexibility in the long run.

TAT: Good for dividend reinvestment. Expensive fee on the dividends compared to ASICMINER-PT to be sure, but only 1/100th the cost to get in to the security, making ASICminer available to far more people, and opening up dividend reinvestment to more people as well. Also good for the occasional arbitrage opportunities that show up between the full PT and themselves.  I currently have <100 shares there, which I think is the right number, and the best place for dividends to accumulate at this time.  More than 100 gets swapped up to the full PT when the sell/purch ratios between the two are right.

[Brassguy]

What did you want? Someone to hold your hand while you browsed? Lol.

Go read each funds prospectus...the fee's are explained.


TL;DR ASICMiner-PT has no fee's, all the others have 5% or so fee's.

That is an incorrect oversimplification. But yes, one should read the prospectus of each asset carefully before purchasing.

Yah dude, TAT is awesome at only 5% of the dividends. Try not to misguide.

TAT: Takes 5% of profits + does NOT let you convert into Direct shares.
I'm staying the hell away from that one.

ASICMINER-PT: no tax on divs, can convert to direct share, Burnside is more than a name (he runs the best known BTC exchange: https://btct.co/)
only issue is you need to pay 2.5BTC to buy one share nowadays... But there is more security, dividends and flexibility in the long run.

Allows you to buy 1/100th shares to at least get a piece of asicminer... not everyone has 2.5 BTC or so to buy a share... but guess what now you can buy partial shares, then re-invest the dividends in more TAT-ASICminer shares, and grow your portfolio:-) Hey maybe if you keep saving/re-investing your dividends you can sell enough TAT shares to buy a full share of Burnsides...

I have 11 shares of asicminer-pt AND 44 shares of TAT-asicminer... works fine for me. I don't mind the 5% of dividends taken at all... you could always save your BTC and buy a bunch of asicminer shares and do your own pass-through... and if you want you could charge 4% And people might buy them!

....or you could just complain on a forum

I love this place!!

EDIT... sorry to be a little snarky...but when someone provides a nice service and doesn't charge exorbitant fees I feel obliged to defend them and support them with my BTC

[ThickAsThieves]

TAT: Takes 5% of profits + does NOT let you convert into Direct shares.
I'm staying the hell away from that one.

ASICMINER-PT: no tax on divs, can convert to direct share, Burnside is more than a name (he runs the best known BTC exchange: https://btct.co/)
only issue is you need to pay 2.5BTC to buy one share nowadays... But there is more security, dividends and flexibility in the long run.

TAT: Good for dividend reinvestment. Expensive fee on the dividends compared to ASICMINER-PT to be sure, but only 1/100th the cost to get in to the security, making ASICminer available to far more people, and opening up dividend reinvestment to more people as well. Also good for the occasional arbitrage opportunities that show up between the full PT and themselves.  I currently have <100 shares there, which I think is the right number, and the best place for dividends to accumulate at this time.  More than 100 gets swapped up to the full PT when the sell/purch ratios between the two are right.

There are many people that own thousands of TAT.AM. I'd like to run through an example for you, in order to show how small 5% of dividends is as a fee.

Okay, let's assume you want to buy 1 whole-share. In this example, the best price is, say, ฿2.5

Also, let's say the best TAT.AM price at the same time is ฿0.0245 (roughly 1% cheaper), making your total cost ฿2.45 for the equivaleny 100 shares.

Now, let's assume that dividends will be .036 for the next 3 months (this is definitely NOT guaranteed), which would get you a total of ฿0.46764 with your 1 whole-shares (or 100 TAT.AM shares).

If you owned TAT.AM, your 5% mgmt fee would total ฿0.023382 in that 3 months (about $2.86).

Total profit from whole-share: .46764 - 2.5 = ฿-2.03236
Total profit from TAT.AM shares: .46764 - 2.45 - 0.023382  = ฿-2.005742

So even after 3 months of very high dividends, and only paying 1% less for your TAT.AM shares, you are still doing better by 0.026618, which is MORE than I would have collected in fees in 3 months.

The point of this exercise is to show two things. First, that 5% of dividends is a pittance as far as management fees go. My liability of holding these assets in the passthrough is astronomical in comparison. Second, you must do the math to figure out whether the fee will ever affect you. If your goal is to flip the shares in 3-6 months, then the fee is barely a consideration. If you plan to hold shares for a year, then you need to calculate what you are paying for the shares, and what you think dividends will realistically be in that year, to see what the best choice is.

Regarding the inability to export/import shares. I have explained elsewhere that I have good reasons for this. First, I want to get board seat status, so exporting shares is counterproductive to that goal. Second, I want to make Friedcat's life easier and respect that he doesn't need hundreds of requests from me for people trying to convert TAT.AM shares into a handful of whole-shares every week. I might add import/export as a feature in the future, but if I do, there will be quantity minimums, just like the other PTs.

With my PT you also get someone that is dedicated to customer service, security, and transparency of share ownership. To my knowledge, these are not offered by all the passthroughs to the degree in which I provide them.

Thanks for listening!

[AMuppInTime]

TAT - Had to reply to your (terrible) example.

If direct (or PT) divs = 100 BTC
Then TAT divs =           95 BTC

an example should be simple and illustrate a point.
Meanwhile, what I mean is that I don't trust your security. You're the one who has to make me trust you, not the opposite.
No transfer to direct shares = no trusting the security.

[Eric Muyser]

So even after 3 months of very high dividends, and only paying 1% less for your TAT.AM shares, you are still doing better by 0.026618, which is MORE than I would have collected in fees in 3 months.

Sorry are you saying you're not making a profit at all? Not even breaking even? You must be. I'd be worried if you weren't.

[ThickAsThieves]

So even after 3 months of very high dividends, and only paying 1% less for your TAT.AM shares, you are still doing better by 0.026618, which is MORE than I would have collected in fees in 3 months.

Sorry are you saying you're not making a profit at all? Not even breaking even? You must be. I'd be worried if you weren't.

What I'm saying is that my income from dividend fees is very very small.

[ThickAsThieves]

TAT - Had to reply to your (terrible) example.

If direct (or PT) divs = 100 BTC
Then TAT divs =           95 BTC

an example should be simple and illustrate a point.
Meanwhile, what I mean is that I don't trust your security. You're the one who has to make me trust you, not the opposite.
No transfer to direct shares = no trusting the security.

You are welcome to your own interpretation, but I have to warn you that thinking one layer deep is why some people make less money than others. Your example completely ignores my point.

Regarding my security, what do you find lacking?