VOD - Abusing Trust System

[Vod]

Do Microsoft products that have MSDN keys periodically check the Microsoft servers to make sure the keys are still valid? If not then how exactly would the products stop working once the keys are revoked?

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/genuine

Genuine Windows, however, is a recurring process that checks your product key to make sure it's not blocked or being used on hardware that's different than what you were using when you activated Windows.

There are many reports of Office deactivating itself.  Search Google on those words.

What would you say if the sellers were to put some kind of disclosure on their sales thread?  

The sellers are also using stolen/hacked accounts, depleting the resources available for the actual owner.  The sellers have no financial loss when the account is disabled, but the actual owners have paid a considerable amount.

[1714893337]

1714893337

[fonenumba]

What would you say if the sellers were to put some kind of disclosure on their sales thread? 

The sellers are also using stolen/hacked accounts, depleting the resources available for the actual owner.  The sellers have no financial loss when the account is disabled.

How do you know this? I would argue that making this statement requires a bit of speculation, similar to the speculation required when saying that people selling netflix accounts are using carded credit cards to pay for them.

It looks like if someone were to purchase a one year MSDN subscription for the operating system license then it would only cost them $700~ while if someone can get the education discount then they can get a good number of product licenses for free.

I am not a seller of these licenses, nor do I have any interest in buying them. My only interest in this is fairness

[fonenumba]

This may or may not be the most appropriate place to post this, however I am sure a good number of the MSDN sellers are reading this thread so I will post it here:

I think that it would probably be in most of the seller's best interest to stop selling the keys as they are opening themselves up to significant potential liability if Microsoft were to decide they wanted to make a big deal about this

[alani123]

I think SaltySpitoon put it right.

Conclusions drawn:

1. It's not illegal to sell MSDN keys

2. It's not disallowed by the forum's administrasion

HOWEVER

3. It's against Microsoft's TOS

4. Vod had every right in the world to put these negative trust rating to those people

5. It's up to the people that put him under their trust list to judge if he should be in default trust

My personal comment:

People that sell those keys can disregard Vod's rating. If you serve people right a single rating isn't going to harm you. After all, Vod never accused those sellers saying that they were not actually providing those keys to people that paid them.

[fonenumba]

Do Microsoft products that have MSDN keys periodically check the Microsoft servers to make sure the keys are still valid? If not then how exactly would the products stop working once the keys are revoked?

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/genuine

It looks like windows will only check the validity of the keys anytime it checks for updates. If one were to turn off any kind of windows updates then their computer would never check the validity of the keys.

Genuine Windows, however, is a recurring process that checks your product key to make sure it's not blocked or being used on hardware that's different than what you were using when you activated Windows.

There are many reports of Office deactivating itself.  Search Google on those words.

Hmmm. I do see that there have been various instances of office deactivating itself. I looked through probably 5 or 6 random results from a google search and I couldn't find any instances where the exact cause was determined, or that the person posting had confirmed (either directly or indirectly) that they were using invalid/stolen keys. I would presume that this could be avoided by disabling automatic updates.

Another very good point is that these keys are being sold for significant discounts. Lets just say for example that the OP's customers did eventually get 'scammed' by your definition and the keys/product stops working after some number of months (I would think it would take at least this long for Microsoft to investigate/act considering how large of a company they are). Lets also say that the price paid is exactly 90.01% off what would otherwise be available to them. The victim could simply buy keys from another seller that is selling at that time for keys that would work for another few months, and then repeat the process another 8 times (for a total of 10 purchases) until they would end up spending more money then they would have spent if they had purchased it via a legit channel. I think it is pretty safe to say that a new version of whatever product they are using prior to them going through this process a total of 10 times, meaning the 'scammed' customer would actually come out on top verses what the result would have been had they paid the full price via legit channels

[Wardrick]

Are we going to do this again? People, uh.
No he is not abusing anything. This being legal or not, he has the right to leave negative feedback if he sees it fit. He's actually one of the rare members that helps identify scammers and whatnot.

Theymos nor anyone from the stuff does not moderate the trust system. If you've sent him a PM because of this, no wonder that you got no reply. Anyhow when sending him a message, it takes a long time for a reply to come, if ever.

If you're on the default trust list you have the ability to mark someone's account and hurt their forum reputation and future business transactions, a lot more than average members. Giving that you have that sort of ability, you can't just leave feedback "where you see fit" as it will lead to threads like these (whether valid or not will be determined by the evidence provided in each case), and if you don't have evidence or a good probable cause of why the negative feedback was left it ruins the point of the default trust system. Your personal vendetta with someone shouldn't dismay you from the actual facts of whether or not the person should be trusted. Whether you like them or not, you still have to be fair with your ratings. If you aren't then you shouldn't be on the default trust list (or any list for that matter which involves passing judgement onto someone else in a more exclusive manner than others).

[FuckIdolPlus]

I'm less concerned about the letter of the law here, and more concerned with the fact these guys are selling products that will stop working in the future.

To me, that is a scam.   

The keys never get blocked by microsoft. Which part of this sentence is which you don't get? IDK about others but I give one key to one person, not 3-5 people like many do just to lower their prices. Not even one person has said that keys were blocked for any god damned reason.

[TECSHARE]

People that sell those keys can disregard Vod's rating. If you serve people right a single rating isn't going to harm you. After all, Vod never accused those sellers saying that they were not actually providing those keys to people that paid them.

This is a hyperparanoid community, and in digital goods people are especially hesitant, and with good reason. A lot of users will simply see that red mark and move on without even clicking the trust profile. It is unfortunate that people are this superficial, but it is true.

Vod did in his ratings however-

1. Claim criminal activity when there was none
2. Claim the users were scammers, not saying they COULD be scammers. That is a big difference. Mass negatives for this in entirely inappropriate, these should at most have been neutral ratings as a warning to users with no actual customer complaints or other evidence of illicit activity. Bitcoin will never grow by driving legitimate retailers away with harassment over what is nothing more than speculation.

[deepceleron]

As long as it is clear that what you are purchasing is in no way a legitimate license to operate a Microsoft product or operating system, and may be an ill-gotten good, gained by leveraging hacked accounts and stolen credentials and funds from innocent victims...then maybe you're safe. Deceptively representing what is being sold is worthy of report.

A software audit from Microsoft or the BSA requires invoices and receipts from legitimate resellers for every seat or workstation, and is hard to comply with even if you normally buy shrink-wrapped software. Purchases of grey market goods like "internet keys" in no way provide the proof of purchase required to pass such an audit. A COA hologram sticker alone doesn't provide the proof needed by an actual software audit, and certainly some random key bought on eBay or a dark web site does not either. At most what is being sold is a (temporary) copy-protection bypass mechanism. Representing such keys as an actual license to run software is fraudulent and a negative trust warning is warranted.

Pretty much anything being sold on this site that could be a means to launder and profit from stolen passwords, accounts and credentials, or credit card numbers should be considered as such, without strong evidence to the contrary. The purchaser will likely be the person criminally investigated for the fraudulent use and gain from the purchase. If it walks like a duck...

If a seller says "for sale: stolen Netflix account username/passwords, working until the legitimate owner contacts Netflix or cancels the accounts, or until Netflix contacts the FBI to see who is currently logging in with the hacked account" or "Xbox account purchased with stolen credit card number from data breach, will likely work until credit card theft victim completes chargeback; by purchasing you are contributing to further for-profit criminal enterprise and hacking attempts from our lawless nation-state", then the seller at least is being an honest criminal.

[TECSHARE]

Pretty much anything being sold on this site that could be a means to launder and profit from stolen passwords, accounts and credentials, or credit card numbers should be considered as such, without strong evidence to the contrary. The purchaser will likely be the person criminally investigated for the fraudulent use and gain from the purchase. If it walks like a duck...

You could say the same thing about literally ANY transaction. Of course it COULD be criminal activity, but is just assuming it is criminal and accusing them of being scammers appropriate without actual evidence of criminality?

[Lauda]

I'm less concerned about the letter of the law here, and more concerned with the fact these guys are selling products that will stop working in the future.

To me, that is a scam.   

Maybe you should have edited the negative trust. You could have just put up a warning there. Technically it is not illegal and the price suits the risks.

[Vod]

I'm less concerned about the letter of the law here, and more concerned with the fact these guys are selling products that will stop working in the future.

To me, that is a scam.   

Maybe you should have edited the negative trust. You could have just put up a warning there. Technically it is not illegal and the price suits the risks.

Theft is no longer illegal?  You guys seem to forget about the people who are out the licenses when this happens.

Idol is no more than a petty thief.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Theft is no longer illegal?  You guys seem to forget about the people who are out the licenses when this happens.

Idol is no more than a petty thief.

IMHO you should change the feedback to

This user is selling Microsoft product keys they get from MSDN subscriptions. This is not allowed. Microsoft does not sell product keys without Certificate of Authenticity.

All it will take is a single person to report his illegal purchase of a Microsoft key (even someone who intentionally buys just to report), then Microsoft can trace it back to the original MSDN subscription that generated that key.

ALL keys generated from that MSDN account will then become invalidated (i.e. stop working) and FuckIdolPlus may NOT give you your money back.

This is a scam to me as the keys stop working if reported. Do not purchase keys from this account!

[FuckIdolPlus]

Theft is no longer illegal?  You guys seem to forget about the people who are out the licenses when this happens.

Idol is no more than a petty thief.

IMHO you should change the feedback to

This user is selling Microsoft product keys they get from MSDN subscriptions. This is not allowed. Microsoft does not sell product keys without Certificate of Authenticity.

All it will take is a single person to report his illegal purchase of a Microsoft key (even someone who intentionally buys just to report), then Microsoft can trace it back to the original MSDN subscription that generated that key.

ALL keys generated from that MSDN account will then become invalidated (i.e. stop working) and FuckIdolPlus may NOT give you your money back.

This is a scam to me as the keys stop working if reported. Do not purchase keys from this account!

The keys never stop working. Which part of this you people don't get? Have you ever seen a report of the keys getting banned?

Also what about those selling accounts like netflix, they get banned within 30 days for sure? I don't see any objection there. That's a fucking credit card fraud. And MSDN key are legally obtained.
WTF you people don't get.

[Vod]

And MSDN key are legally obtained.

So you are saying you can prove it's your MSDN subscription?

[Quickseller]

And MSDN key are legally obtained.

So you are saying you can prove it's your MSDN subscription?

In the US you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim he is breaking the law then the burden is on you to prove they are not legally obtained.

[Lauda]

Theft is no longer illegal?  You guys seem to forget about the people who are out the licenses when this happens.

Idol is no more than a petty thief.

Well you can't say that he is a thief either. We don't have any evidence to go with. We can't say he's a thief just because this "seems shady". I actually believe that people are innocent until proven otherwise.

[Vod]

And MSDN key are legally obtained.

So you are saying you can prove it's your MSDN subscription?

In the US you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim he is breaking the law then the burden is on you to prove they are not legally obtained.

Here is a peek into the basic honesty of this child liar.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1000513.msg10862102#msg10862102

Leaves me negative feedback saying he lent me 21 bitcoins, then deletes it and claims he didn't leave it.  

Much like people can be jailed before they are found guilty, this is a case when it is highly probable he is selling stolen keys.  He is welcome to verify his subscription with me if he wants, but it's also highly probable he won't do that.  

[Vod]

Theft is no longer illegal?  You guys seem to forget about the people who are out the licenses when this happens.

Idol is no more than a petty thief.

Well you can't say that he is a thief either. We don't have any evidence to go with. We can't say he's a thief just because this "seems shady". I actually believe that people are innocent until proven otherwise.

Check my post above this one.  I've proven he is shady and is a liar. 

[Lauda]

Check my post above this one.  I've proven he is shady and is a liar. 

Never mind then. I was trying to be objective as much as possible, disregarding the status that you have here. I figured that you wouldn't make a mistake. I guess he was trying to get back at you which kind of tells us more about his character and one could even guess the age.