Bitcoin Forum

The whole system is nerd freindly only.

Seriously, if we want to go mainstream, there has to be some sort of user friendly program that can manage everything in a way our grandmother can understand it. Until then, BTC will be used for money laundering and illegal transactions until then.

My paraphrased thoughts.

The Internet was a nerd freindly only system one day too.

1. Buy Bitcoins
2. Make friendly software and sites
3. ????
4. Profit?

Maybe people are doing this. If you look around and think so, try this:

1. Buy Bitcoins
2. ????
3. Profit?

Hmm, maybe making it norm friendly is a mistake.

If it involves idiots crying about early adopters and deflation, indeed...

+ 21 000 000

Bitcoin doesn't need to be user friendly in the short term: remember how many people used torrents before Azureus was stable.

Sometimes it is good to have a geeky edge.  What is important is making sure our systems are much more secure than our competition.

Compared to investor tools such as Interactive Brokers it's pretty user friendly. At least the client doesn't have blinking red and green stuff everywhere. It really has only a few buttons, "send coins" "address book". How much less complicated can it be?

Also, the really tech savy should probably be using a webbased BTC wallet instead of the program.

Yeah, it isn't that bad. I'd like more features actually. Like choosing coins and importing/exporting keys.

Why would the more tech savvy use a web wallet?

Sorry, I meant the opposite (less tech savvy). I'm not native English so I get confused with the terms sometimes :)

Ah yes, this is probably true until there is reliable protection from viruses etc.

I'm technologically bereft but even I can figure out the basics of how to acquire and use this stuff. 

Once there are android/iphone apps it shouldn't be too difficult to mainstream it. Remember this is still in its infancy.

The only deterrent technological aspect to Bitcoin is the mining/proof of work concept that secures the block chain. Thankfully, you don't have to know a single thing about it to use Bitcoin to your heart's content.

I don't and I do.

I mean does everyone know what every part in their car is doing at any moment?  You still drive right?

Unless you're bitching at the manufacturer cuz the car won't move when you press both pedals at the same time, in which case I call PEBCAC

The only thing that needs to be made perhaps more "average user" friendly is the way bitcoins is stored and spend.

The mining aspect will allways be for a select few, we do however need a huge influx of users who intend to make bitcoins their primary currency(lets hope) oneday to pay for products(online at first) and not specificly to play the market(mining,mtgox etc) and profiting from bitcoins.

WTF the main Bitcoin client (the GUI) is SUPER easy and simple.  It's only the "how it works" part that's nerdy.  You can use it without knowing anything.

Which is probably solved by using a site instead of a wallet on their PCs. After all, storing in the cloud makes much more sense for average users.
Yes, mining is specifically off-limits to new users. They shouldn't even be thinking about it. There's a good reason why it was removed from the original client  :D

And indeed, why would they have to understand how the currency works under the hood? Rarely anyone understands how it works with money printing/federal banks in their own country.

Why-o-why do i have the feeling that OP is just another troll...
The amount of trolls/anti-bitcoin-fanatics seems to be growing equally exponential aswell...
Just google for bitcoin scam and bitcoin ponzi and things like that, you get a LOT of websites telling how stupid and bad, complicated and illegal bitcoin is...
Not sure what we can do to clear things up for those people...

Haterz gonna h8.  just meanz we get to buy our BTC on the cheap.

The problem with bitcoin is that it competes with both banks as well as government.
Banks don't like it when the money creation and issuing is out of their hands, and governments don't like it when the circulation is beyond their control.
The Wörgl experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worgl ) and the, I think it's named Liberty Dollar (?), have shown that government will go full force (and that includes both army and FBI) after the 'criminals' who dare to operate an independent currency within a country.
No doubt bitcoin will share the same fate once it gets big enough, unfortunately.
And don't shout: "Internet is out of control of the goverment!" because it's not.
Obama has a 'kill switch' and other governments undoubtedly will implement such legislation first before cracking down on bitcoin.
Apart from the 'kill switch' there are deep packet inspection and end-user prosecution to bring dealing with bitcoins under government control.
ISPs become bigger and bigger, and will act more and more like government puppets in order to (and in that order):
1. not damage the carreer perspectives of their CEOs,
2. not damage the coporate profitability figures.
This way it will become quite easy and unavoidable that all internet connections will be regulated in a sense that they will be dissallowed unless allowed, contrary to the current situation in which they are practically all allowed, with here and there some exceptions like domain hijacking by the Dept. of Homeland Security (in cases of copyricht violations, for God's sake!).
Internet II is just around the corner, in which all traffic will go through some big providers, with internet IDs identifying the participants, and will be snooped upon by government, in order to protect the Homeland against 'terrorism', catastrophies 'and any other action deemed inappropriate' by The President.
So I'd say have fun with your bitcoins, but step out before government steps in.

I certainly expect totalitarian states to make life difficult for their Bitcoin users.

Whether that's China, the U.S., or Saudi Arabia, it just gives third world countries times to catch up and become Bit-rich.

It's impossible to disinvent (uninvent?) technology. Bitcoin is a technology like nuclear fission. You could shut down the Manhattan Project, but it would still be developed somewhere else. Look how futile the Non-proliferation efforts have been. Even if bitcoin fails, the peer-to-peer cryptocurrency technology will not and cannot go away. It will survive and grow because nothing else has the same properties, properties with utility.

Even if the infrastructure will get limited to 'registered-only' services?
I hope you're right.
I very much support the ideals where bitcoin stands for, especially to take control out of the hand of the banks.
But man are they powerful...

how could they limit the infrastructure? They can't even shut down Pirate Bay now. The Net treats censorship as damage and routs around it. The black market will grow until it becomes simply the market. There is no stopping it now.

apparently bitcoin was on tv just now in sweden.

 :D

The last time somebody threw an Internet kill switch, their reign of power quickly ended. Very quickly. In the US especially, it would be political suicide to kill the Internet to stop Bitcoin.

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

all the bitcoin client really needs to be safe for the tech illiterate, is super simple encryption and backup of wallet.dat. I've seen so many hopeless computer users with machines that are riddled with viruses and other who get caught totally off guard by disk failures, etc.

It was? Since when, i mean, what version? I just reinstalled Bitcoin with a fresh copy of the installer downloaded from the official site the same day and it still got the option in the same place it used to....

I don't think you fully comprehend how stupid the typical consumer really is.

Still harder than most online shopping.  There needs to be some way of paying right from a web site rather than needing do to copy/paste on a Bitcoin address and switching to another application.  Probably a browser plug-in.

If the user doesn't control the machine, any encryption can not be fully trusted. IMO Crypto-currency is a very long term project that will take generations. A prerequisite for a crypto-currency is trusted (proven correct) computers completely controlled by the users. I don't think this will happen in my lifetime. Since 1996, the trend has been to take control away from the users.

That said, this is an important experiment, even if we know it will ultimately fail. The lessons we learn will help craft a "real" crypto-currency once the computer industry matures.

Bitcoin wallets have recently been implemented in Javascript.  That could be used for a Chrome OS plugin which is charged up, and then distributes BTC based on a "mailto:" style markup.

Bitcoin is showing us how to do this, a little.  The solution is to make the "your computer" disappear and do the computation as a distributed process between untrusted participants.  

Currently your private keys are stored on your node/wallet so you have to trust that your own node isn't corrupted. But eventually the entire wallet could be stored "in the network" where only a majority of the nodes could access it without your cooperation.  Even corrupting your own node wouldn't work.
  
Not quite there yet, but Bitcoin is a nice step in that direction.

http://www.erights.org/elang/index.html

-MarkM-

The obnoxious thing about bitcoins, in my opinion, is acquiring them. Paypal was probably the simplest way until that option was taken away from us. Dwolla is easily the next best thing for the average consumer now, but transferring funds into Dwolla is a looong process. It takes about two days, in my experience. I haven't tested using Dwolla to transfer funds directly from my bank account to, say Mt. Gox, but I don't imagine it's much faster. (Correct me if it is.) Most people don't have Dwolla anyway, and once you have a Dwolla account why not just use that to make a purchase? If you don't care about anonymity and if you're not looking to escape the fiat system, then for most purchases Dwolla makes more sense.

I think the killer application for bitcoins is fast and secure currency transferral. Right now it really isn't all that fast for most people as most people are trying to go from fiat to bitcoins to purchase. That process can take a few days at present. Two if you have a Dwolla account and need to transfer funds in. Four if you don't have a Dwolla account or don't have your bank account associated with your Dwolla account.

Best case scenario? I enter my credit/debit card info, the information gets verified, the card gets charged, I get bitcoins. I wager most people would be willing to pay a small premium to offset the cost of scammers if it meant getting bitcoins in their wallet within ten or fifteen minutes. It would be a boon for the bitcoin economy, too, as it would lower the barrier to entry for most people and would allow people to "strike while the iron is hot," so to speak. If someone catches the "bitcoin bug" and wants to buy bitcoins, they shouldn't have to wait more than an hour before they have bitcoins in their wallet.

Just my 0.02 BTC.

Also, the address system is a bit intimidating for most normals, I wager. I think web-based services which allow users to send currency by e-mail address or by name would be the best option for them. It would make the whole system a lot friendlier and a lot more pleasant to use.

You are actually complaining about fiat currency, but you are mis-directing your complaint by trying to make it sound as if the problem is with the non-fiat currency.

If you had an actual money to begin with, people would accept it for bitcoin readily and easily.

For example you can buy bitcoin with pecunix or with liberty reserve, and if the feds had not shut down e-gold you'd be able to buy it with e-gold too.

It is not our fault that the fed shut down e-gold, thus limiting your options slightly.

If you find that buying bitcoin, liberty reserve, pecunix etc using fiat is made hard for you, go complain to your congresspeople or ombudspeople or what not telling them you don't want them reversing your transactions and so on. Or complain to your credit card provider about their giving you a hard time buying electronic currencies or something.

Once you have something reasonable in hand you are fine, a lot of blockchain based currencies become accessible easily once you have some bitcoin for example, since a lot of them don't care to bother at all with fiat, letting bitcoin serve as gateway to that stupid world so they do not have to.

-MarkM-

Wrong. I am complaining about the gateways to bitcoin that are available. Because the majority of the world still uses fiat currency this is an issue that merits some discussion.


But most of the world does not have Pecunix or Liberty Reserve, and most of the world doesn't want to have to go through another currency to get bitcoins. I don't care if I can get bitcoins with Pecunix or Liberty Reserve. I want to buy it directly. It's a major PITA to have to do this. It's a barrier to entry that is entirely unnecessary and you are only holding back the adoption rate by refusing to do anything about it.


You're right. Not your fault. But it is the fault of the community that we don't have convenient gateways in place for average consumer types who just want an easy way to make transactions online. Don't try passing the buck here. The problem remains, regardless of whose fault it is. I don't care whose fault it is. All I care about is seeing the issue solved.


Sure, that's one way of doing things. You can go complain to someone else until they fix things for you. Honestly though? I doubt they care. I'd much rather see someone take this into their own hands and provide something now than see people sit on their hands until someone solves their problems for them.


Calling the world most people live in "stupid" does not make that world go away. The practical barriers still remain. The problems still want to be solved.

You know what? Screw it. I should just make this service. Anyone else interested? I'm working for a startup as their sole programmer, I'm trying to get a little bitcoin service called Bitcoin Pouch off the ground, I'm trying to learn Scala and implement yet another service in it, and I have to leave enough time for my girlfriend so she doesn't start to feel ignored. I'm a little swamped. Help would be greatly appreciated if I'm going to manage anything in this direction.

Slow payment is a problem with the current system and a reason to get in Bitcoin and stay in.

Anyone who can make it cheaper and faster to convert can profit so the incentives are all set right.

All anyone needs really is the site  http://www.weusecoins.com/ (http://www.weusecoins.com/) to use it and get started. You don't have to be a nerd to use it. Pretty simple.

It probably does not really require much of your time at all, just your money.

You need to put up enough money as a "float" for the service to operate with and to cover any losses due to either

(1) The statistical losses due to reversed incoming fiat transactions happening before the padded fees/exchange-rate has accumulated enough to cover them; or

(2) Your estimation of the amount of padding and/or fees falling short of what turns out to actually be necessary.

Bear in mind this is not like selling some hard to resell service or widget that the vast vast majority of people who steal paypal accounts and credit cards have absolutely no interest in using as a way to "cash out" their "ill-gotten gains".

On the contrary, this is pretty much the equivalent of putting up a shingle saying "launder your ill-gotten gains here".

On the one hand, cashing out people's ill-gotten gains can pay some very nicely high fees and exchange rates.

On the other hand the people whose paypal accounts and credit cards were stolen quite often do reverse the transactions.

That all said, please specify the fees and/or exchange rates you are prepared to put up the float money for such a service to operate with. Coding is pretty much irrelevant, no need to consume your precious coding time, all that is needed is your float money and the fee and exchange rates at which to utilise it, and likely someone can be found to do the day to day operations including running whatever already existing or easily modifiable code will work, maybe even for less than minimum wage just because like you they just want to make such a thing available for the good of the community.

-MarkM-

I really don't like Facebook, but I was wondering if that might be a good fraud reduction check. If they have a sufficiently old and active FB account with details that match the card it is very unlikely to be a stolen card. Plus you could combine that with FB Bitcoin activism.

Maybe you could also videochat with them, have them show you via live video not only their possibly doctored picture-ID but also the view out of their windows showing the street-signs or other recognisable proof they are at the address on the credit card.

Snail-mailing a code to the address on the card might defeat the apparent purpose of trying to satisfy an impulse-buyer's demand for instant gratification unfortunately.

Maybe the various departments of motor vehicles and/or liquor license departments around the world should offer their users optional "show your license on the web" service so we can go look at their picture on such an "authoritative" site if they wish.

-MarkM-

I wish you lots of luck finding a credit card payment processor who will accept you. That has been the stumbling block for this in the past.

Yeah, at first I was thinking PP then changed it to card because PP shut coinpal etc, but what about using FB to clear people to join a site like bitcoinmarket was where people PP each other.

Somebody could perhaps buy Facebook Credits for bitcoins, though that's only a one-way exchange.

I'd be willing to put up a couple thousand to help cover initial losses, provided my initial investment would entitle me to at least having that investment returned once things get rolling. My financial reserves aren't that great, however, as I'm currently in the middle of trying to set up a mining cluster.


I would want to get some stats on what percentage of payments get reversed across a range of services, such as PayPal and a good sample of credit card processors, in order to calculate out what kind of premium would need to be charged initially in order to keep the service from going immediately under. Once the service has been running for a while, the premiums could be adjusted to account for actual chargeback rates. An additional fee should be charged on top of the bare "chargeback compensation" fee to help keep the service running as well, part of which should go to a legal defense fund. I imagine such a fund would be necessary at some point in the service's history. Better to be prepared than caught flat-footed at any rate.


Yeah. This is the part I have the most trouble with just because I'm a programmer and thus feel weird hiring someone to do something I feel like I could do myself. I guess it comes down to time constraints though and the whole time/money trade-off.

I should figure out how much this thing would cost to get off the ground.

I doubt you would have to hire someone to adjust some already-working free open source exchange code to change its name and the magnitude of the fees or exchange rates it charges etc, pretty minor stiuff, really it is basically an install not coding, just maybe an old-style install where install might mean changing some constants in the code and/or config-file instead of using a GUI configuration-interface.

As a programmer myself, who has run many many many web-based applications and sites and so on, I know that it is not really the trivial (to a programmer) amount of "coding" that is a pain but rather all the stupid crap that ought not be needed, like emails from idiots who couldn't read a help system even if one was provided.

The defence fund is a great idea, but if needed it will probably be far too small come the day you actually see how much legal defence is actually going to cost.

In fact legal problems are a big part of why I prefer the idea of working with "game currencies" instead of with bitcoin directly. I can then argue that players neither put money in nor take money out, they merely put bitcoin in and take bitcoin out and as everyone knows bitcoin isn't money so certainly these tokens only exchanged for bitcoin not for fiat cannot possibly be construed as money...

In developing my Adult Knotwork site I came to the conclusion there are basically seven topics that are considered "adult", not for the dinner table or kids: Drugs, Gambling, Money, Politics, Religion, Sex and Violence. Of those. money seems to be a euphemism for any or all of the others. As such, it turns out to be pretty much as fraught with problems as any or all of the others. It might even be easier to deal in any or all of the others than to too-directly deal with money.

That is part of what is so great about Bitcoin. Once people are into Bitcoin we can maybe go ahead and play games and have fun without all the crap about "if you create a billion magic swords and someone sells one such sword somehow, then you are liable for taxes on a billion times what they sold one for since obviously the other billion must be worth just as much each". (Or hey you just killed a dragon, now you owe taxes on its treasure because in theory you could sell it.)

-MarkM-

Do not underestimate the power of the banks, their political influence and the tenacity with which they will pursue their financial interests.
A few examples:
1. Gold is the enemy of central banks and what happened less than 100 years ago?
American government confiscated all the gold of the American citizens.
2. The Romanov Tsar didn't want a Rothschild central bank and what happened?
The 'Baron' orchestrated a Bolsjewik revolution and massacred the whole Romanov family.

If needed they will explode a nuclear bomb in the middle of Manhattan, with a sticker on it saying "Funded with money laundered through the bitcoin network and detonated by terrorists using the bitcoin network."
"Oh, and by the way, bitcoin is also used for illegal drugs transactions and child porn."
Watch how quickly the whole protocol will be killed by all ISPs around the world.
Except of course Venezuela, Libya, Iran, Syria and North-Korea.

You seem to think the banksters are one big evil happy family. The fact is that we aren't even on the RADAR screens of the vast majority of them. Those who do see Bitcoin as a threat can make far more by buying Bitcoin at this early stage than by killing it. These few insightful banksters could buy every new coin mined for a year with their pocket change merely as a hedge against the possibility that we will win. If we lose, all they lose is their insurance premium (hedge bet). If we win, they will be even more wealthy than they are now, only they won't be stealing any more.

I've thought about that (not 2.75M for pocket change because that's ridiculous), but the general idea of 'enemies' buying as a hedge.

1. It would be good for 'us'.
2. They can't do it because admitting a chance that their system can fail is essentially impossible. (Also, hedging tail risk is not their idea of a good time)
3. Anyone who can see that will buy more than "a hedge" and essentially be "one of us"

Ha ha imagine the banks saying to themselves "the CIA doesn't have to use us anymore to launder their drug and arms money, we gotta do something about that..."

-MarkM-

2.75 million is pocket change to wall streeters. example:

latest Initial Public offering-Groupon (1 lousy internet stock)
    Q1 Revenue: $644 million, up from $44 million a year prior
    Q1 Gross Profit: $270 million, 41.9% margin, up from $20 million a year prior, and down from the margin of 45.5%
    Q1 Loss from operations: ($117) million compared to $8.5 million profit a year earlier.
    Q1 subscribers: 83.1 million, up from 3.4 million
    Q1 cash flow: $6.978 million down from $12.0 million a year earlier
    Cumulative customers: 15.8 million, up from 874K
    Featured merchants 56.781 up from 2,903
    Groupons sold: 28 million compared to 1.76 million
    Cash balance: $208.7 million; Working capital deficit: ($228.7) million
    Total Assets: $541.4 million, Total Liabilities: $14.8 million
    Total shares outstanding: 296,140,145
37.2% of GRPN sales came from outside of the US in 2010
Since inception GRPN has raised $1.1 billion from sales of common and preferred stock
The company had 7,107 employees at March 31, up from 37 on June 30, 2009
Andrew Mason's annual base salary is $575 as of January 1, 2011
The firm's former President and COO Robert Solomon, left the company on March 22, 2011, its former CTO Kenneth Pelletier, left GRPN on March 23, 2011.
Curiously, the company raised it raised $135 million at $32.12/share in its Series E round in April 2010, while in a subsequent Series G private round in December 2010, it raised $946 million, at $31.59 per share.

$31.59 * 296,140,145 shares= MARKET CAP OF $9,355,067,180!
Groupon has an estimated market cap 136X the entire bitcoin network!!!
Pocket change, Motherf$cker.

I remember people saying texting will never take off because those tiny keyboards were only for the hardcore nerds. Wow were they wrong!

I strongly disagree.
Bitcoin is an idea that has to be sold. People has to buy the idea, believe it.
If they ask and you say it's it's some kind of black box, they won't buy it.
Most people won't buy it, I mean.

People buys the current financial system not because it's fundation are conceptually different than Bitcoin, but because that system fed, dressed and entertain them since they were babies. If someone is going to be pulled off that system, it won't be without deep explanations or with an insanely slow progress through decades and decades.

IMHO

good point but just wait the free market will soon provide many easy solutions for bitcoin users

I think we can wait a long while to get to "grandma can use it" adoption. Just a fraction of a fraction of current grey/black market activity could make BTC a force to be reckoned with.

Insanely slow progress and growth for decades and decades (though still exponential) it is than. Works for me.

Seems to be a realistic and desirable scenario.

If someone hacks computer for gathering credit card information do you really think that they have a problem to get old and active FB accounts?

Before we can BlockChain the world we need to simplify access
https://medium.com/@coinmetro/before-we-can-blockchain-the-world-we-need-to-simplify-access-20091aea13f4

It is suppose to be nerd friendly. To prove that being ignorant of tech will be your greatest downfall. Mainstream is for the ignoramus. Remember that.

To become mainstream we should also consider those under-educated people, at least for now, maybe in the future everyone become "nerd". Being nerd friendly is fine, but to achieve mass adoption it should become as user-friendly as possible.

Its not just Bitcoin, its all Cryptocurrencies. For some Cryptos you have to almost be an IT Specialist. So you are right, if its not much easier to handle cryptocurrencies, it will be hard to get it for the mainstream. I mean which normal person who has no idea about cryptos could sell a coin on etherdelta or any other exchange? Need a lot of experience in cryptos before you can trade. So it has to be a lot easier before it will hit the mainstream.

Once private keys aren't so fragile, btc and other cryptos will be mainstream.

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The point is not that BTC is losing its relevance, but that people do not understand it. As practice shows. What they don't understand, they avoid

it will take time before they can truly understand how bitcoin works or how crypto will truly help them in every day life. but i strongly believe that it will take one btc or crypto transaction to appreciate what crypto can offer to them. and its true, if you are ignorant with something, you tend to avoid. but it is only a matter of time before noncrypto users will appreciate the strength of blockchain tech