Bitcoin Forum

New stoneware bitcoin mug #004 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1354912#msg1354912


Added a Mug Shot :)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1288071#msg1288071  

October 21, 2012, 11:23:11 AM: Looks like piotr_n has flipped out and started to act erratically. I am glad that happened so early in the process and not when I had hundreds of project supporters to deal with.  ???


EDIT: NEW CONTRACT DRAFT is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1285534#msg1285534
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1275720#msg1275720

Some of my friends are planning to set up their own art studio. To make it happen, they need to buy very specific equipment.
Good news is, that the equipment they need is usable for a very long time and can actually be used to generate additional revenue by selling the "shelf space" (lack of better wording) for professional and hobby artists. It also holds value over time and can be sold later.  

EDIT:
Plan is to sell virtual Support Tokens. Please, do not confuse this with a security. It is not. If you like to help us out getting the new equipment, all you need to do is purchase virtual Support Tokens from me, and your ST's will be transferred to you via #assets-otc system.

The plan:
1) Renting the "shelf space" for dividend income.

Getting the clients is not a problem for the equipment and if the have any art workshops going on, the "shelf renting" is guaranteed to be at 80% capacity.
Following calculations are done at 40% and 60% rented capacity and 2 full runs per week.
Clearing 40 - 60 EUR per run is a fair estimate after the expenses. 8 runs per month on average is going to produce about 320 EUR income.
Lets cut that down to 80% just in case there is a slower than expected months -  lets say 250 per month as worst case scenario.
 
2) Works shops (use of other equipment for div income)

What we are going to do is work out a % from the  workshops fees that will be used to cover all the other equipment bought with funds form the sell of virtual ST's.
This % will be used for calculating the return to participants and lets call them "dividends". Rough estimate shows that getting additional 50-80 EUR  per month is not a problem.

We estimate the income to be around 310 EUR per month. This is a very conservative estimate and I like to keep it like that for now.
Yes, we can have really bad months and earn close to nothing. Summer can be the worst time because pole are on long vacations.

So, The Plan is to rise about 15K EUR worth of crowdfunding and for that, we are selling up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens.

How to participate?
You need to have a #assets-otc account (see deleted for instructions)
It is good idea get yourself a http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php account too. You do not need it but it probably helps.

Thank you in advance for keeping the conversation as constructive as possible. Questions, recommendations and ideas are welcome.

If you have questions, please post them here or send me a PM.
 
Cheers!

For trolling and personal attacks, please use PM's addressed to yourself.  :-*

Last Edit:    October 14, 2012, 11:52:07 AM

Yes. There is large community of hobby artist who actually need the equipment. Because the studio will be "open" (you can drop in and do your stuff and go) , the customer base can be kept growing and "renewed".

So you are estimating a 3% income per month? Sounds like an interesting endeavor, just the kind of thing that the bitcoin investment world is good at. I would consider investing a bit.

Could be interesting  :)

To be honest, I am really happy I delayed the issue and avoided the GLBSE drama.
I am going to make the Support Tokens available via #asset-otc and a part of it in OT.
Total number of ST's will be 34 000.

Larger "block" purchases (>2000 ST's) are available at discount, but only if you agree not to sell any of the ART-OTC ST's under 0.05 until the original 34 000 have  been placed or I have stopped offering them at 0.05.
Please PM me for details.

Please keep in mind, that those are not shares, bonds, notes or what ever other instrument you can name. Support Tokens are not registered in any known country because those are not securities.

You are purchasing virtual Support Tokens.

Here is the contract I used in #assets-ot

October 16, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
NEW CONTRACT DRAFT is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1275720#msg1275720



EDIT:2012.20.13

Last Edit:    October 13, 2012, 06:58:45 PM  I am making some changes to the contract so it can not be misinterpreted as a security.




ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens

This NOT a financial security and can not be treated as one in any jurisdiction on this planet.


1. ART-OTC issue of virtual Support Tokens (STs) represent a participation in the "Open Art Shop Project" only by helping to support the purchase of new equipment.
2. Equipment is used to generate additional income for the project.
3. Most of the equipment is usable for long periods of time (years).
4. Equipment will be insured against theft or destruction by fire or similar incident.
5. Up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens will be sold at 0.05 BTC per token.
6. Support Tokens do not represent any share or membership in "Open Art Shop Project" or in its managing legal entity(s).  
7. Support Tokens are not registered as financial securities nor do they represent any financial security whatsoever.
8. Proceeds from the sale of virtual Support Tokens are used to buy equipment, materials, parts and cover other equipment related expenses.
9. The project does not promise any profits.
10. Any profit (after expenses) will be shared among holders of virtual ART-OTC Support Tokens.
11. Profits are converted to BTC from EUR, USD or any other fiat currency and divided by number of outstanding STs.
12. If the purchased equipment is sold, proceeds will be divided up between token owners (by paying a final dividend and/or calling back the STs)
13. ARTS-OTC Support Tokens can (but do not have to) be bought back by the issuer.
14. We will do our best to keep the project profitable.
15. If the project fails, ART-OTC Support Tokens issuer or project manager (persons or legal entity(s) can not be held liable.
16. Issuer reserve the right to make minor changes to this contract.
17. Issuer can not be held liable for any of your actions or any of the results from your actions. Actions like, selling, trading, destroying or anything else you plan or can imagine doing with your STs
18. All sales of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens are considered final after you have transferred your coin to address give to you by the issuer.
....


Thank you for your support.

Edit
Some useful links:
#assets-otc - Contract Management System https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105437.0
OTdemo Open Transactions server to the rescue? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117080.0

Finally!  ;D
We are listed now at #asstes-otc (http://"https://assets-otc.com/asset.php?id=2")

For how to get involved, please see the first post.
You can help us build it!

Do you need to sell all of the tokens to get the project started?

Or will my money be put to work form day 1 I invest?

I have split up the equipment purchases so that I can order the less costly equipment first (if the sale of tokens is slow). This is not a problem because it's still usable and can be put to work immediately.  
First milestone we have to reach is  around 3400 ST's.
We have decided to pay 1% interest per month, if collected coin has to wait. EDIT: I have to check with assets-otc.com to make sure I can get the purchase dates and calculate the earned gratuity for token holders on daily bases. I need to figure out, how to reward those, who have hold the tokens for longer time and are still in the records at the ex-date. I think the "ex date" has to be the last day of the month.
Weekly divs it is.
If you have good ideas how to calculate it, please feel free to post it here.

I think we are going for weekly calculations because people here are used to it.
Lets see how this works out. The weekly "ex-date" will be the Wednesday around 18.00 UTC
 

I'm not sure how you figure this isn't a security. Just because you've given it a new name doesn't actually make your statement "this is not a financial security" a fact.

Good question. The worst thing one can probably do is sell you a something in a nonexisting entity and call it a share or corporate debt or bond or whatever.
This is simply a fraud. 
In our case, you are not sold a stock nor a bond or anything else, that can be categorised under security (fin.).
My idea is borrowed from crowdfunding and it goes like this: for your to support this project, you have to buy a virtual token. The sale of virtual token is complete, when you send me the coin and I send you the token. Virtual goods have changes owners and nothing else.
What I do with the sales proceeds of those tokens, is written in the contract. What you do with the virtual token is up to you :) and I am not responsible for your actions in any imaginable way.
 
BTW. I had a chat with Pigeons in IRC and he proposed a idea/question that morphed to this idea:
After we get everything set up, I am going to open up a small web shop fort the stuff we make. Virtual ST tokens can then be traded back for good and services.
Lets say you like to order something and you have some ST's available, those can be used to get the discounts and those tokens are transferred back to our account. This idea is new and rough at the edges so I have to polish it a bit :)

 

So, in essence what you've done is taken the existing (illegal under US securities law) model, scribble out the word "share" and write "token"?
I really don't think this would stand up in court. At all.
Best of luck.

Um. Yeah. All you've done is replace the word security with some other word, and go on thinking that it's not a security.  ::)

A judge isn't going to be fooled because you've changed a word.

You're selling a "token" that represents an interest in potential future profits derived from the efforts of others, and the investor is paying value for that token.

What I do with the virtual token is up to me? I use it to show you you owe me a share of the profits, as stated in your "contract"

Maybe now is a good time to find an attorney - or are you still in the "build an illegal business first, and get lawyers later" camp like our good buddy over @ GLBSE?

I think here you got it wrong. I do not run assets-otc and business I run is not illegal. My business in NOT selling the tokens. 
BTW, GLBSE was a only a market. All the stuff sold there was not legal in USA - basically everything offered in this forum.     
Please, lets not bring GLBSE drama to this thread. Thank you.
I think we need to remove the promise to share profits and this will fix the problem. BTW, this "problem" will be eliminated soon by Jumpstart Our Business Startups Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpstart_Our_Business_Startups_Act)

How do we know you're not just trying to scam us? You are well-known for lying and trolling on these forums, why should anyone help you?

You're trying to sell securities, and what you are doing is illegal, by your own words. Just because you don't call it a "bond" or a "share" means nothing in the eyes of the law -- according to you.

This smells like a scam.

Everyone read what EskimoBob just wrote: "This is simply a fraud".

When will people learn?

Didn't you just say you would have listed on the GLBSE had it not gone down?

So let me get this straight. You want us to believe that your business is legal simply because it's not listed on the GLBSE?

Be careful people. Moderators do not remove likely scams (see the warning above). And this meets all the requirements of a likely scam.

Think about it. EskimoBob is collecting money for a friend to use setting up an art studio. And he's promising to pay 3% a month?

I have a bridge in brooklyn I'd LOVE to sell you. This has scam written ALL over it.

Hello usagi. Is that your retaliation for exposing you as one of the most incompetent managers? Sorry, truth hurts.

I am going to preserve this is because it's just too absurd to let him delete it. 
After, I read trough usagis incoherent rant and manage to find a question,  I'll try to answer as best as I can.


How many times do I need to ask you for the link to a article where I have lied. (Please post it to your made up scam thread)


How is "we" you are speaking for? Please read my previous answer.


Really usagi? I am informing project supporters that those are NOT securities. Tell me (not here, because your own invention, the local rule, applies to you) how did you present CPA, NYAN, BMF etc? LOL. 
 


For a English teacher your ability to read is amazingly weak. 

---

LOL. Trolling?
Usagi, pleas, get your facts straight and then try again.
You have completely failed to understand what was GLBSE's role. Again, this is a wrong thread for this. Lets talk about it somewhere else. Remember, "Local rule" ;)

If there is any sort of profit sharing it is a security.

Its not a security if people get ARTWORK

The question is if you get a piece of ART sent to you in return for supporting artists is that considered profit sharing ?

CharlesPonzi (LOL) Good point and this is what some growdfunding platforms use -  you buy good like a frame from a film. We are selling you a virtual token as a frame of film or as a frying pan :)
The problem is, how to handle the possible profit sharing. Easiest way is to say that there will be none...

So, lets not blow this thing out of proportions :)
I'll like to keep it as simple as possible. We are not selling you a security but a tokens. Those tokens show your support for this project.
I am not going to prance around here and call myself a CEO of blaa blaa balaa and tell you fairy tales about board members, deals crossing on my desk or even call it a company... like some of the angry pole here have done for long time ;)

This is a simple project that needs your help to get off the ground. We can make it grow to something really nice.
If this is OK by you, please let me know via PM or IRC and I'll help you get few tokens.

Cheers and thank you for you support.

If really feel like you have to wast your and other forum members time with spewing bile, use PM.
   

Red flag #2. Instead of simply answering my question, EskimoBob attacks me and tries to change the topic. I didn't accuse him of lying, I simply said he is a well-known liar (which is true). If EskimoBob had nothing to hide, he would answer my simple question: How do we know he's not just trying to scam us?

Red flag #3. EskimoBob avoids talking about whether what he is doing is legal or not *(it's illegal) and instead tries to obfuscate the situation by attacking me for using the GLBSE. What I did or did not do is irrelevant (I stopped what I was doing because of my beliefs on the subject); the question here is if what EskimoBob is doing is illegal. And, it is. Why doesn't he just address the question? Or is he really doing this in full knowledge that he is breaking the law -- by his own words?
[/quote]

Red flag #4. EskimoBob has demonstrated his hypocrisy in this response quite well. Why doesn't he just address the issue that he said himself what he is doing is illegal? Does the OP even make sense considering what EskimoBob said in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118208.0?

Or an idiot

For once, I agree with you usagi :)  EskimoBob, either you're just a fool, or you really don't get it. Assets-OTC isn't the one

1. Soliciting Investment for a business (you are)
2. Selling an unregistered security (are you really to stupid to figure this out?)
3. Lying about the nature of the security (you're lying when you say it's not a security!)
4. Failing to disclose any of the risks associated with the investment (You didn't disclose ANY risk!)
5. Failing to disclose the true nature of the art studio's business & sources of income (seriously)

EskimoBob, either you're trying to take advantage of investors, or you're just being fucking stupid if you fail to realize that, according to the SEC's definition of "security" you're selling securities in this art studio.

You either adamantly refuse to learn, or you understand and are lying and scamming.

I'm not necessarily against unregistered, or even illegally sold, securities, but I sure hope that the people selling them KNOW what the fuck they're doing, rather than what you're doing which is refusing to recognize the truth and failing to inform investors of the risks associated with your issue, especially the risks associated with selling securities illegally.

I guess I am as stupid (idiot?) as every "issuer" in this forum including troll Usagi. Only difference is that all those nice issuers are advertising their stuff as a security. What makes this whining here even more absurd, is that has never bothered any of you :)
This is strange, or what?
 
Guruvan, if you think this art studio is a banana and this banana is a security, then have fun and believe what you want. I can not stop you :)
 
Guruvan, risk are written in few first posts.

Cheers

The fact is... based on the above you are lying about the nature of what you are doing, for the purpose of financial gain.

You sir, are a fraud.

Usagi, I guess you leave me no other option.
For everyone else, I am sorry you have to read this unrelated post.

 ---  The last "fuck off" letter to the loser and a the troll also known as girl-man Usagi ----
Usagi, you funny little man... you are begging me to make this post about you and your fuck ups? Why? You got your own ass handed to you in your bull shit ridden forum threads countless times. Why are you begging for more and doing this here, in this thread, that has NOTHING to do with you or your long line of fuckup's.
 
For start, there are multiple threads demanding you get a scammer tag. LOL! I mean, wtf have you done to deserve this? (do not answer, we all know)
Is it your inability and utter incompetence in managing others peoples coin? Is it because your stupidity has caused massive losses to most of your "investors"?
So far, what have you actually achieved? What can you show us/me/yourself? Have you built anything useful? No, you have not built anything.  

Lets see now.
You managed to sink how many investment portfolios? How many imaginary companies have you managed to run in to the ground? Let me guess: All of them? WOW!
Wile making one stupid decision after another, screaming at your concerned investors in forum threads, you have managed to piss away over 7000 BTC? Or was it more than that? (the exact number is in one of your forum thread, it's embarrassingly large number in BTC and even bigger in USD ;) )
What is left of your imaginary, make believe companies? One big NOTHING (OK, almost nothing)! (the exact number is in one of your forum thread)
 
On top of that usagi, you troll your own threads as and you keep making yourself look like a ass practically every time you type something. Close to every post you have made in the past weeks or so is some nonsense or you screaming at someone who point out you yet another mistake or lie. This is pathetic. No, its way beyond that.
 
On top of everything, you still accuse everyone else for your own stupid decisions.
Now you are whining here, trolling and whining and begging for attention. Sad sight indeed.

I recommend you take some time off. Figure out how to return your investors coin (btw, mine too) and then show up here with a fkn plan.
Until then, please usagi, STFU and go get your act together.

BTW usagi, you are not welcome here, in this thread. Consider this as a local rule (you invented it btw) and please, just go away.

Yes, I am trying to build something that can last for years to come and make lots of people happy and give them opportunity to learn something new. I can see how this angers you and makes you foam like a mad dog.
What did you build, you miserable little turd? Let me tell you what you have achieved: NOTHING! All you have done, is cause lot of misery and pointless forum posts.  

PS! Usagi, do not answer to any of my questions in this letter. Use some other thread for that.
Thank you and honestly, my neurotic troll, fuck off for good  :-*

---  The End ----

For everyone else, I am sorry if you decided to read this.  

Lets get back to the real topic at hand and figure out, how we can make this work.

I have nothing to add but that this is entertaining, carry on!

EskimoBob, I'd just like to go on the record as saying that I do think that the Art studio is a fine idea, and quite possibly a fine investment. I've been part of a large warehouse art cooperative myself. (Depending on exactly what's produced, and ability to market production, such a business could be quite lucrative. We sold paintings & sculpture regularly, in the $5000-$30000 range)

I think you should take a look at a prospectus (for a real company trying to raise money legally) or two, and try to put forth one like that yourself. (Then, frankly, I wouldn't care so much if you're selling SEC-blessed securities, or w/e, I'd be interested to invest)

The suggestion above, of producing a Real Good to Sell To Investors (an Art :) ) while also providing them a membership in the Studio which entitles them to a share of the profits, you might have a more legally kosher plan than you do so far.

As I'm thinking about this, I'm considering businesses like the local health food cooperative. Those members share in the profits of the business. A cooperative art studio is a pretty common model, certainly here in California, and a cooperation would avoid securities laws AFAICT.

Finally, please, seek legal advice before you offer an investment to the public, considering everything that's happened recently. Regardless of what you think, or what I think, the law is the law, and is normally best interpreted by an expert. To do anything less is to do a potentially grave disservice to your investors.

Except, of course, just simply telling us how do we know you're not trying to scam us?

Naw, that would be too easy right? You'd rather try (and fail) to make this about me.


No it's ok, I'll answer. You started the first one, in retaliation for a scam accusation I made against YOU, because you broke a contract you agreed to seven times. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112443.0) There were multiple witnesses, some of which posted on the thread. Unfortunately Maged felt you didn't deserve a scammer tag. But in retaliation, yes, you did post the first one. The others were all posted by trolls like puppet and nimda who had a history of trolling (and, in my threads specifically). Look around EskimoBob -- despite all those scam threads on me you and your friends started, I still don't have a scammer tag. Why is that, I wonder?

Now, how about you -- are you trying to scam us here? Just answer the question and stop being a dick, EskimoBob.


No, that's not a local rule, and the world deserves to know what kind of person you are. Consider it Karma.


Prove it. Introduce us to your friends. Show us some of their art. Do anything but try to insult me.

Or are you a fraud?


How about you tell people, quite simply, how they can believe you're not trying to scam them after all this crap you've written about other people?

Everyone go read the scam thread against EskimoBob and decide for yourselves, and consider deeply how EskimoBob has lied and obfuscated, and avoided answering a rather simple question whether or not he has any proof what he is doing is real.

I think I know what your decision will be.

guruvan, thank you for a constructive comments. I am working on this right now. I probably have to rewrite the contract and recall the current issue. Little inconvenience, but nothing complicated.

"Problematic" point in contract are:
Those do leave room for wrong interpretations and I like to eliminate this.   
I like CharlesPonzi idea and additional feedback on this is appreciated.

I am going to post a new draft of the contract soon. I need to refresh my memory on relevant sections in 1933 Act and see how the JOBS Act can help me structure this deal properly. Damn USA, you guys way are over-regulated :) DO something about it (not in this forum thread)

To everyone: Please tell me how can I make this project more attractive to you.
Please keep it civilized.

NB! Anything unrelated must go to different thread. If you like to accuse me of something you have dreamed up, please use appropriate subforums or PM me. Thread crapping and trolling will not make you in to real a man ;) It only makes you look like a total loser and an idiot.  ;) 

Cheers!

This is anew contract (draft)
All grammar corrections are welcome.

Sale of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens


This is a rewards-based crowdfunding project. Project supporters (aka buyer of ART-OTC issue of virtual Support Tokens - ST’s) are offered, as a reward, the virtual Support Tokens.
As a perk to ST holders, virtual tokens can be used at later date for discounts on product and services offered by the project in the future.  No equity is offered to ST holders.


A. WHY AND WHAT IS OFFERED
1. ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens (later: STs) represents your participation in the "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC" as a supporter by helping us to purchase new equipment for the project
2. Proceeds from the sale of virtual Support Tokens are used to buy equipment, materials, parts and cover other equipment related expenses.
3. Equipment will be insured against the theft or destruction by fire or similar incident.
4. Equipment is used to generate additional income for the project.
5. Most of the equipment is usable for long periods of time (years).
6. Up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens will be sold at 0.05 BTC per token.
7. Support Tokens do not represent any share (equity) in "Open Art Shop Project" or in its managing entity(s). 
8. Support Tokens are not financial securities nor do they represent any financial security whatsoever.
9. The project does not promise any profits and there will be no profit sharing with holders of virtual ART-OTC Support Tokens.
10. If the purchased equipment is sold at later date, proceeds will be divided up between token owners at that time.
11. ARTS-OTC Support Tokens can (but do not have to) be bought back by the issuer.


B . LIMITATIONS TO STs BUYERS


1. If your (STs buyer) annual income or the net worth of is less than USD 100000, your maximum aggregate purchase of STs in 12 month period can not exceed the greater of USD 2000 or 5 percent of your annual income.
2. If your annual income or the net worth of is more than USD 100,000, your maximum aggregate purchase of STs in 12 month period can not exceed 10 percent of your annual income.

C. RISKS


1. By purchasing any number of STs you positively affirm that you understand that you are in risking of losing your entire investment -
2. and that you could bear such a loss; and
3. you understand the level of risk generally applicable to investments in startups, emerging businesses, and small issuers;
4. and you understand the risk of illiquidity
5. If the project fails, ART-OTC Support Tokens issuer or project manager (persons or legal entity(s) can not be held liable.
6. Issuer can not be held liable for any of STs holders actions or for any of the results from STs holders actions.
7. Issuer can not be held liable for STs holders actions like selling, trading, destroying or anything else you (STs holder) plan or can imagine doing with your STs.
8. Issuer reserve the right to make minor changes to this contract.
9. All sales of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens are considered final after you have transferred your coin to address give to you by the issuer.

D. FORCE MAJEURE

1. Issuer or manager(s) shall not be liable for any failure to perform its obligations where such failure is as a result of Acts of Nature (including fire, flood, earthquake, storm, hurricane or other natural disaster), war, invasion, act of foreign enemies, hostilities (whether war is declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection, military or usurped power or confiscation, terrorist activities, nationalisation, government sanction, blockage, embargo, labour dispute, strike, lockout or interruption or failure of electricity [or telephone service], and no other Party will have a right to terminate this Agreement under Clause 19 (Termination) in such circumstances."

2. Any Party asserting Force Majeure as an excuse shall have the burden of proving that reasonable steps were taken (under the circumstances) to minimize delay or damages caused by foreseeable events, that all non-excused obligations were substantially fulfilled, and that the other Party was timely notified of the likelihood or actual occurrence which would justify such an assertion, so that other prudent precautions could be contemplated.

No, I am not trying to scam you nor anyone else here.
Usagi, stop being a dick now. 

Oh come now EskimoBob! You should know better than anyone -- I'm not being a dick, I'm merely... asking questions! Isn't that what you like to call it?


By selling something with the promise of future value, for an unspecified product or service, you are creating a security.

If you are honestly trying not to scam people, just sell pre-orders. There is no law that says a commissioned product must be completed within 30 days (as some have suggested).


Never put a clause like #8 in a contract. I'm sure guruvan or some lawyer will chip in and tell you why, but in general it's a little like saying "We will not murder anyone on, before, or after July 19th, 2015."


Clauses #10 and #11 states that token holders control equity because they have rights to the equipment.


Meaningless and unenforceable.


Investment?


'Investors' cannot have a loss if their tokens do not represent equity. Sorry EskimoBob but it's pretty clear you are trying to sell a fake (scam) security here.


Illiquidity? Why don't you just come out and say your tokens will be traded on a secondary market? Hot shit EskimoBob, you're selling a security here.


Lol you're insane. So let me get this straight. If I sold a security and said people were not allowed to trade it or I would not be responsible.. that would be okay? You can't be that stupid.


Pay careful attention people because this is where EskimoBob is blatantly attempting to scam you. After he sells these "tokens" all he has to do is say "oh look.. it's illegal. silly me!" and you will have NO RECOURSE AGAINST HIM. Watch out! You were warned... EskimoBob is a scammer!



... like not even trying to pull this bullshit in the first place.

This is a nice peice of work EB, too bad no one will buy your scam asset.

Usagi, you are an embarrassment to the whole BTC community.
If you have any scam accusations, please post your delusional rants to proper sub forums.

Thank you.

PS! Why are you so angry at me? Are you accusing me of your own stupid mistakes that cost over 7000 BTC to your investors? Usagi, you are the scumbag who swindled hundreds if not thousands of coins of your investors money and wasted it of who knows what. Not me.
And now, please, take your meds and go.

I asked a simple question and you could not answer it. Instead, you attacked me. You're not only a hypocrite and a troll, based on the contract you wrote and what you've said about me here, you're a scammer as well.

Here's a hint. You mention I lost 7,000 BTC. That's a lie, I didn't. I didn't lose anywhere near that much. In fact, I didn't lose anything. You're a liar and a troll, and now that it's coming back to bite you on the ass, you're sore about it?

I have a great idea EskimoBob. Go apologize for the shit you've caused to other people, and stop trying to scam the shit out of these forums, and maybe, just maybe, when you ask for money for your friend's art studio (O RLY?) people will believe you instead of laughing in your face.

So the art studio has the need for equipment.  The studio doesn't need to own the equipment but the equipment needs to be located in the studio and made available for use by the artists.  

Then just come up with an offer.  

The studio operator can offer to host the equipment, and then pay to the owner of the equipment a certain amount (a fixed monthly amount, or based on usage?).

That way there is no capital at risk by the owner of the equipment.  And for the owner of the equipment, the revenues (equipment rental or usage fees paid) could exceed the expenses (maintenance on the equipment, cost of the capital to purchase and install the equipment).

Does this help towards solving the problem?

[Edited for clarity]

Interesting idea indeed. I think this is a big step in right direction and probably makes the whole idea more attractive to participants.

The problem is how to have supporters of the project contribute bitcoins toward the cause, in a way most likely to be considered "legal" by aggressive governments. Donations is one way, but how to reward the supporters legally?

This product seems a little too confusing for my wallet.  It seems like you're trying so hard not to be a security, that the investor has lost all assurances of any benefit from purchasing "tokens".  I suggest looking into a different model where returns aren't BTC, but in goods.

I am interested in purchasing art with Bitcoin.  You should get your artist friend(s) to make some pieces around the theme of Bitcoin (money, cyberpunk, anonymity, electronics, etc).

Still life of some 7970's in a basket of fruit anyone?

Maybe you could hold a monthly/quarterly art auction, where all bids must be made with Tokens?

I guess all the screaming and yelling of how the SEC/FSA is breaking down imaginary doors of imaginary corporations and is threatening to hang bazaars owners has had it's effects on me too :)

One option is to say, fuck that hysteria and advertise the dividends, get some pople to sign up and get this project off the ground.
I rather keep it low key and go the other way.
There will be no participation in any profit-sharing agreement so we can end this "this is a security" nonsense for good.
 


We can and will do all that but first we need to get this project going  - buy or lease the equipment to make the "product".

I know that there is a hand made tea/coffee mug in making. It has a nice bas-relief of a bitcoin logo on it.
This is not a printed/decal crap from China or from your local "gifts" shop.
How it looks? I have no idea at the moment. :)  I know that you can get your name embossed in to it until the material is still soft. 

What I was thinking is this:
ART-OTC is a open cooperative that buys the equipment.
Coin used for the purchase of this equipment is donated by the purchase of ART-OTC tokens.
Equipment is leased to "Open Art Studio Project ART-OTC"
Open Art Studio Project pays for the equipment to ART-OTC like lease payments.
Coin starts to flow back to ART-OTC tokens holders.

Is that acceptable?

I've purchased a few, its a nice test of the #assets-otc system, and a nice to encourage and help artisans, and really nice to keep Bob busy so he doesn't troll other threads ;)

Go ahead and throw a coin at this project.

Tonight (after UTC 19.00) I am going send out a small gratuity to those brave, who have show support to this project by purchasing support tokens from assets-otc.com

 

Could we get our Bitcoin Address embossed into it, as text or a QR code?  If reasonably priced, I'd bet at least half of the CoinLab office would want to order one.


Acceptable to who?  The SEC?  Probably not.

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not a lawyer.  Assume everything I say is wrong, get your own legal counsel before doing anything based off this information.

As far as I understand, the SEC classifies pretty much any passive investment as a security. If you put money in, and have a chance to get more than your initial deposit back out, it is a security (by the SEC's definition).

Read this for some examples of things that the SEC says are and are not securities:
http://www.wcl.american.edu/sba/outline_databank/outlines/SecuritiesRegulation_Quinn_Fall2004_Cases.pdf

From that doc:

It seems like you could get around SEC regulations by:

- Require investors to somehow contribute non-monetarily as well (not solely on the efforts of others)

- Don't pay dividends, but allow asset holders to either sell shares at their buy price, or redeem them for goods/services (no expectation of profit)

- Don't sell to US investors, locate outside of the US (outside of SEC jurisdiction)

Why are you people so happy buying fake and illegal securities in non existing (fake) entities?
Why even issue this illegal stuff and call yourself a corporation, while you know, you are not representing any legally existing Co.
If your company is registered, and you offer shares to general public - you are breaking the laws in most of the countries that have internet access.

Obviously this opens the ugly door of SEC/FSA/OSC/... etc, who will start cracking down on this sooner or later and make everyone's life really miserable.

（Posted by: EskimoBob.. last week.) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118208.msg1269108#msg1269108)

Sounds like EskimoBob started to believe his own delusions that everyone was a scammer and decided to set up his own scam. After all, everyone's doing it, right EskimoBob?

Your friend's art studio you say? And who are these people exactly? Do they even exist? I mean come on. EskimoBob has friends? Ha! Tell me another one.

If this investment is not offered to those in the U.S., it doesn't matter if the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission approves or not.




That's where my suggestion of using a simple revenue contract might be preferable.  The studio needs equipment.  A supporter/investor of the studio project can buy the equipment (or provide the funds to buy the equipment and then becomes the owner of the equipment), and then the equipment located at the studio earns revenue when it is used, or when items constructed using that equipment are sold.

But seriously, these laws are ridiculous for someone trying to raise investment money for an art studio.  The crowdfunding ammendment let the genie out of the bottle and it is only a matter of time before the laws are either ignored en mass or repealed and that some day an art studio operator that wants to tap an online social circle for investment (measuring in thousands of dollars) can do so without concern over breaking securities laws.

Bitcoin Address embossed into it - Yes, this can be done.
QR code - There is a way to do it but I am not sure it can stay readable  so I am not going to promise this.
Every cup will be hand made - not poured to the mold. What do you think is a reasonable price?
100 tokens of ART-OTC? 200? Shipping will be extra.  
If you want your name or Bitcoin Address embossed into it, please send it to me via PM.

So we don't get any share of profits and we don't own any equity?  But we might get back the second-hand value of equipment IF it's sold?

Not quite seeing what the benefits of investing are - seems like we're being asked to donate money to help a "friend" of yours, without even being told where this art studio is so we can actually see the benefits our funding provides.  Is that a fair summary?

Yes, current draft read like it reads and is not attractive at all, unless spreading coin makes you feel good and this is all you want.  :)
This is a 'work in progress' and the goal is to figure out how to structure it so that all participants are happy.  As you can see, we are not there yet. :)
In last few pages we have attempted to figure out how to share the profit but not share the profit :) Sounds absurd, I know.
Problem is, that  security definition is directly connected to contract to share the profit.

I am trying to put together a "contract" where ones who donate via purchase of ART-OTC tokens, get back more than they donated.

hmm...that site needs a way to find all the assets that have been issued. Like a charts site or something.

Setting up an account it asstets-otc is not complicated but the lack of quoting system is a bit annoying :)
I posted some quotes here [url http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php?type=&nick=&thing=VIRTUAL+ST%27S+OF+ART-OTC&otherthing=&eitherthing=&notes=]virtual ST's of ART-OTC[/url]

Same time, I do not like to get involved with a system, where one guy has the full control over the tokens, token holders and all the coin in the system (if any).
Sites like GLBSE are convenient but all those risk are there and those risk have materialized multiple times in last year or so.  
At the same time, what happens, if asstets-otc guy gets bored and walks? (tokens, assets etc) holders have the contracts aka proof of the holdings and also the trades. All signed and verifiable by both parties. Problem solved.
I added a high level description of possible trading "interface" to asstets-otc tread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105437.msg1283427#msg1283427
Looks like Goat and pjotr_n have a "chicken to pluck" or "bone to pick" lol so this thread got out of control really fast.  Damn.

This is anew contract (draft) #02
English is obviously not my first language - all grammar corrections are welcome.

Sale of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens

This is a rewards-based crowdfunding project. Project supporters (aka buyer of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens - ST’s) are offered, as a reward, the virtual Support Tokens for the are agreeing to pool the coin for the purchase of art studio equipment and leasing it to "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC".
As a additional perk to ST holders, virtual tokens can be used at later date for discounts on product and services offered by the project in the future.
No equity is offered to ST holders.

A. WHY AND WHAT IS OFFERED
1. ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens (later: STs) represents your participation in the "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC" as a supporter by helping us to purchase new equipment for the project

1. ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens (later: STs) represents your participation in the open co-op "ART-OTC".
2. Proceeds from the sale of virtual Support Tokens are used to buy (Edit)art studio equipment, materials, parts and cover other equipment related expenses.
3. Equipment will be insured against the theft or destruction by fire or similar incident.
4. Equipment is used to generate additional income for the project.
4. Equipment will be leased only to "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC"
5. Most of the equipment is usable for long periods of time (years).
6. Up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens will be sold at 0.05 BTC per token.
7. Support Tokens do not represent any share (equity) in "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC" or in its managing entity(s). 
8. Support Tokens are not financial securities nor do not represent any financial security whatsoever.
9. The project does not promise any profits and there will be no profit sharing with holders of virtual ART-OTC Support Tokens.
9. Leasing payments form "Open Art Shop Project ART-OTC" are paid to ART-OTC biweekly (every second week).
10. If the purchased equipment is sold at later date, proceeds will be divided up between token owners at that time.
11. ARTS-OTC Support Tokens can (but do not have to) be bought back by the issuer ART-OTC.

(I am going to leave that in because this is also present in crowd-funding contracts)
B . LIMITATIONS TO STs BUYERS

1. If your (STs buyer) annual income or the net worth of is less than USD 100000, your maximum aggregate purchase of STs in 12 month period can not exceed the greater of USD 2000 or 5 percent of your annual income.
2. If your annual income or the net worth of is more than USD 100,000, your maximum aggregate purchase of STs in 12 month period can not exceed 10 percent of your annual income.

C. RISKS

1. By purchasing any number of STs you positively affirm that you understand that you are in risking of losing your coin entire investment -
2. and that you could bear such a loss; and
3. you understand the level of risk generally applicable to participating investments in startups, emerging businesses, and small co-op projects;
4. and you understand the risk of illiquidity
5. If the project fails, ART-OTC Support Tokens issuer or project manager (persons or legal entity(s) can not be held liable.
6. Issuer can not be held liable for any of STs holders actions or for any of the results from STs holders actions.
7. Issuer can not be held liable for STs holders actions like selling, trading, destroying or anything else you (STs holder) plan or can imagine doing with your STs.
8. Issuer reserve the right to make minor changes to this contract.
9. All sales of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens are considered final after you have transferred your coin to address give to you by the issuer.

D. FORCE MAJEURE

1. Issuer or manager(s) shall not be liable for any failure to perform its obligations where such failure is as a result of Acts of Nature (including fire, flood, earthquake, storm, hurricane or other natural disaster), war, invasion, act of foreign enemies, hostilities (whether war is declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection, military or usurped power or confiscation, terrorist activities, nationalisation, government sanction, blockage, embargo, labour dispute, strike, lockout or interruption or failure of electricity [or telephone service], and no other Party will have a right to terminate this Agreement under Clause 19 (Termination) in such circumstances."

2. Any Party asserting Force Majeure as an excuse shall have the burden of proving that reasonable steps were taken (under the circumstances) to minimize delay or damages caused by foreseeable events, that all non-excused obligations were substantially fulfilled, and that the other Party was timely notified of the likelihood or actual occurrence which would justify such an assertion, so that other prudent precautions could be contemplated.
[/quote]

asstets-otc is out. This project and the supporters are way too important for me to build my contract-client management on someone as unstable and as erratic like  piotr_n and his hobby "service".  He told me today that asstets-otc is just a hobby and his is not taking it seriously.

I have to look for another way to manage the contract-client relationship.
Cheers!

Here is a "work in progress". I can get the numbers or name on it now. If it gets fired to bisque, only glazes can be added.
Where so you want the Bitcoin Address and what it is :)

http://i45.tinypic.com/2czda11.jpg

Good luck with this (am I too late?)!

No, you are not :)

I just meant gl with the venture in general.

What have you done with the real MPOE-PR?

Impress your girlfriend(s)! Support ART

Mug 2

http://i45.tinypic.com/3467qrk.jpg

The "roughness" is all gone before it is fired so do not worry about it.

You have until 13.00 UTC (25.oct) to send me your order and as some requested, you can get your BTC address embossed too.
5 BTC and this includes 100 virtual ART tokens (0,05 BTC a pop) .

 

 ;D

I did not have my camera with me so I used my phone that has a really bad built in camera with a scratched lens (if you can call it that).
Sorry, you can not see any details from those pictures. In the real life, those cups are actually really nice. Pale is crackle glaze and it needs little bit more time to develop. Bluish/green glaze is really wild and it's up to your imagination, what you can see in there - mountains, rivers forest. Have a cup of thee and enjoy.
Sorry for the crappy images.   
http://i47.tinypic.com/2welama.png

Responded to you here  ;)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122189.0

WARNING: EskimoBob's security was delisted and banned from assets-otc.

Thank you for quoting  out of context! Brilliant way to show what kind of a scumbag and liar you are. Bravo!

Another offtopic rant from Usagi, who wasted and swindled away thousands of investors BTC.
First, let me ask this, what happened to your post count number? You had about 1000 posts and look at you now, only 157 posts. Nice job deleting your crap from the forum.
And now, tell us all how many thousands of investors BTC you lost thanks to your own stupidity and incompetence? Was it close to 7500 BTC? (look it yup, it's in one of your posts)
Usagi, please crawl back to that hole you game from. Nobody needs your hysterical dramas and endless rants on topics you know nothing about.
If you like to accuse me on something, go do it in Scam Accusations sub forum.   
Stop following me around like a pervert.

WARNING: EskimoBob's security was delisted and banned from assets-otc.

LOL!
Usagi (Oliver), how stupid are you? I was lucky to get out of this "service" at so early stage! As it turned out, this "service" was just a joke. Read the rest of the thread.
Only person you discredit with this nonsense is yourself, usagi.
Now, go and troll some other thread

It seemed you only got delisted because you talked about Open Transactions on poitr_n's thread about #assets-otc.  It was a real eye opener for me and I don't think anyone would or should use the #asset-otc service.

Here is one more mug.
This one is different. It has a rough surface texture and has some cool "rusty" spots on the handle. It feels nice in the hand. The weight of this stoneware mug is 515 grams of high fired clay and glaze.


This one is also available for 5 BTC (+S&H). This includes 100 virtual ART tokens (0,05 BTC a pop)
PM me for details and lets find this rough stoneware mug a happy owner.

I am closing this thread for now and starting a new clean one.
This new form thread will be used used to answer questions, deliver important announcements about the projects and so on.

Cheers and thank you for your support. Lets move to next phase.