[....] ART issue - The Mug #004 included - crowdfunding the project...

[EskimoBob]

This thread is closed.

New thread will open up soon.

Thank you

New stoneware bitcoin mug #004 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1354912#msg1354912


Added a Mug Shot  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1288071#msg1288071  

October 21, 2012, 11:23:11 AM: Looks like piotr_n has flipped out and started to act erratically. I am glad that happened so early in the process and not when I had hundreds of project supporters to deal with.  


EDIT: NEW CONTRACT DRAFT is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1285534#msg1285534
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1275720#msg1275720

Some of my friends are planning to set up their own art studio. To make it happen, they need to buy very specific equipment.
Good news is, that the equipment they need is usable for a very long time and can actually be used to generate additional revenue by selling the "shelf space" (lack of better wording) for professional and hobby artists. It also holds value over time and can be sold later.  

EDIT:
Plan is to sell virtual Support Tokens. Please, do not confuse this with a security. It is not. If you like to help us out getting the new equipment, all you need to do is purchase virtual Support Tokens from me, and your ST's will be transferred to you via #assets-otc system.

The plan:
1) Renting the "shelf space" for dividend income.

Getting the clients is not a problem for the equipment and if the have any art workshops going on, the "shelf renting" is guaranteed to be at 80% capacity.
Following calculations are done at 40% and 60% rented capacity and 2 full runs per week.
Clearing 40 - 60 EUR per run is a fair estimate after the expenses. 8 runs per month on average is going to produce about 320 EUR income.
Lets cut that down to 80% just in case there is a slower than expected months -  lets say 250 per month as worst case scenario.
 
2) Works shops (use of other equipment for div income)

What we are going to do is work out a % from the  workshops fees that will be used to cover all the other equipment bought with funds form the sell of virtual ST's.
This % will be used for calculating the return to participants and lets call them "dividends". Rough estimate shows that getting additional 50-80 EUR  per month is not a problem.

We estimate the income to be around 310 EUR per month. This is a very conservative estimate and I like to keep it like that for now.
Yes, we can have really bad months and earn close to nothing. Summer can be the worst time because pole are on long vacations.

So, The Plan is to rise about 15K EUR worth of crowdfunding and for that, we are selling up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens.

How to participate?
You need to have a #assets-otc account (see deleted for instructions)
It is good idea get yourself a http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php account too. You do not need it but it probably helps.

Thank you in advance for keeping the conversation as constructive as possible. Questions, recommendations and ideas are welcome.

If you have questions, please post them here or send me a PM.
 
Cheers!

For trolling and personal attacks, please use PM's addressed to yourself.  

Last Edit:    October 14, 2012, 11:52:07 AM

[1715062932]

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[1715062932]

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[EskimoBob]

Sounds interesting, depends on the location though. Do you have a big enough potential customer base to be sure of a market?

Yes. There is large community of hobby artist who actually need the equipment. Because the studio will be "open" (you can drop in and do your stuff and go) , the customer base can be kept growing and "renewed".

[bitcoinbear]

So you are estimating a 3% income per month? Sounds like an interesting endeavor, just the kind of thing that the bitcoin investment world is good at. I would consider investing a bit.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Could be interesting 

[EskimoBob]

To be honest, I am really happy I delayed the issue and avoided the GLBSE drama.
I am going to make the Support Tokens available via #asset-otc and a part of it in OT.
Total number of ST's will be 34 000.

Larger "block" purchases (>2000 ST's) are available at discount, but only if you agree not to sell any of the ART-OTC ST's under 0.05 until the original 34 000 have  been placed or I have stopped offering them at 0.05.
Please PM me for details.

Please keep in mind, that those are not shares, bonds, notes or what ever other instrument you can name. Support Tokens are not registered in any known country because those are not securities.

You are purchasing virtual Support Tokens.

Here is the contract I used in #assets-ot

October 16, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
NEW CONTRACT DRAFT is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102010.msg1275720#msg1275720



EDIT:2012.20.13

Last Edit:    October 13, 2012, 06:58:45 PM  I am making some changes to the contract so it can not be misinterpreted as a security.




ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens

This NOT a financial security and can not be treated as one in any jurisdiction on this planet.


1. ART-OTC issue of virtual Support Tokens (STs) represent a participation in the "Open Art Shop Project" only by helping to support the purchase of new equipment.
2. Equipment is used to generate additional income for the project.
3. Most of the equipment is usable for long periods of time (years).
4. Equipment will be insured against theft or destruction by fire or similar incident.
5. Up to 34 000 virtual Support Tokens will be sold at 0.05 BTC per token.
6. Support Tokens do not represent any share or membership in "Open Art Shop Project" or in its managing legal entity(s).  
7. Support Tokens are not registered as financial securities nor do they represent any financial security whatsoever.
8. Proceeds from the sale of virtual Support Tokens are used to buy equipment, materials, parts and cover other equipment related expenses.
9. The project does not promise any profits.
10. Any profit (after expenses) will be shared among holders of virtual ART-OTC Support Tokens.
11. Profits are converted to BTC from EUR, USD or any other fiat currency and divided by number of outstanding STs.
12. If the purchased equipment is sold, proceeds will be divided up between token owners (by paying a final dividend and/or calling back the STs)
13. ARTS-OTC Support Tokens can (but do not have to) be bought back by the issuer.
14. We will do our best to keep the project profitable.
15. If the project fails, ART-OTC Support Tokens issuer or project manager (persons or legal entity(s) can not be held liable.
16. Issuer reserve the right to make minor changes to this contract.
17. Issuer can not be held liable for any of your actions or any of the results from your actions. Actions like, selling, trading, destroying or anything else you plan or can imagine doing with your STs
18. All sales of ART-OTC virtual Support Tokens are considered final after you have transferred your coin to address give to you by the issuer.
....


Thank you for your support.

Edit
Some useful links:
#assets-otc - Contract Management System https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105437.0
OTdemo Open Transactions server to the rescue? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117080.0

[EskimoBob]

Finally! 
We are listed now at #asstes-otc

For how to get involved, please see the first post.
You can help us build it!

[DutchBrat]

Do you need to sell all of the tokens to get the project started?

Or will my money be put to work form day 1 I invest?

[EskimoBob]

Do you need to sell all of the tokens to get the project started?

Or will my money be put to work form day 1 I invest?

I have split up the equipment purchases so that I can order the less costly equipment first (if the sale of tokens is slow). This is not a problem because it's still usable and can be put to work immediately.  
First milestone we have to reach is  around 3400 ST's.
We have decided to pay 1% interest per month, if collected coin has to wait. EDIT: I have to check with assets-otc.com to make sure I can get the purchase dates and calculate the earned gratuity for token holders on daily bases. I need to figure out, how to reward those, who have hold the tokens for longer time and are still in the records at the ex-date. I think the "ex date" has to be the last day of the month.
Weekly divs it is.
If you have good ideas how to calculate it, please feel free to post it here.

[EskimoBob]

I think we are going for weekly calculations because people here are used to it.
Lets see how this works out. The weekly "ex-date" will be the Wednesday around 18.00 UTC
 

[guruvan]

I'm not sure how you figure this isn't a security. Just because you've given it a new name doesn't actually make your statement "this is not a financial security" a fact.

[EskimoBob]

I'm not sure how you figure this isn't a security. Just because you've given it a new name doesn't actually make your statement "this is not a financial security" a fact.

Good question. The worst thing one can probably do is sell you a something in a nonexisting entity and call it a share or corporate debt or bond or whatever.
This is simply a fraud. 
In our case, you are not sold a stock nor a bond or anything else, that can be categorised under security (fin.).
My idea is borrowed from crowdfunding and it goes like this: for your to support this project, you have to buy a virtual token. The sale of virtual token is complete, when you send me the coin and I send you the token. Virtual goods have changes owners and nothing else.
What I do with the sales proceeds of those tokens, is written in the contract. What you do with the virtual token is up to you and I am not responsible for your actions in any imaginable way.
 
BTW. I had a chat with Pigeons in IRC and he proposed a idea/question that morphed to this idea:
After we get everything set up, I am going to open up a small web shop fort the stuff we make. Virtual ST tokens can then be traded back for good and services.
Lets say you like to order something and you have some ST's available, those can be used to get the discounts and those tokens are transferred back to our account. This idea is new and rough at the edges so I have to polish it a bit

 

[Shadow383]

My idea is borrowed from crowdfunding and it goes like this: for your to support this project, you have to buy a virtual token. The sale of virtual token is complete, when you send me the coin and I send you the token. Virtual goods have changes owners and nothing else.
What I do with the sales proceeds of those tokens, is written in the contract. What you do with the virtual token is up to you and I am not responsible for your actions in any imaginable way.

So, in essence what you've done is taken the existing (illegal under US securities law) model, scribble out the word "share" and write "token"?
I really don't think this would stand up in court. At all.
Best of luck.

[guruvan]

Um. Yeah. All you've done is replace the word security with some other word, and go on thinking that it's not a security. 

A judge isn't going to be fooled because you've changed a word.

You're selling a "token" that represents an interest in potential future profits derived from the efforts of others, and the investor is paying value for that token.

What I do with the virtual token is up to me? I use it to show you you owe me a share of the profits, as stated in your "contract"

Maybe now is a good time to find an attorney - or are you still in the "build an illegal business first, and get lawyers later" camp like our good buddy over @ GLBSE?

[EskimoBob]

Um. Yeah. All you've done is replace the word security with some other word, and go on thinking that it's not a security. 

A judge isn't going to be fooled because you've changed a word.

You're selling a "token" that represents an interest in potential future profits derived from the efforts of others, and the investor is paying value for that token.

What I do with the virtual token is up to me? I use it to show you you owe me a share of the profits, as stated in your "contract"

Maybe now is a good time to find an attorney - or are you still in the "build an illegal business first, and get lawyers later" camp like our good buddy over @ GLBSE?

I think here you got it wrong. I do not run assets-otc and business I run is not illegal. My business in NOT selling the tokens. 
BTW, GLBSE was a only a market. All the stuff sold there was not legal in USA - basically everything offered in this forum.     
Please, lets not bring GLBSE drama to this thread. Thank you.
I think we need to remove the promise to share profits and this will fix the problem. BTW, this "problem" will be eliminated soon by Jumpstart Our Business Startups Act

[usagi]

Thank you in advance for keeping the conversation as constructive as possible. Questions, recommendations and ideas are welcome.

If you have questions, please post them here or send me a PM.
 

How do we know you're not just trying to scam us? You are well-known for lying and trolling on these forums, why should anyone help you?

[usagi]

Please keep in mind, that those are not shares, bonds, notes or what ever other instrument you can name. Support Tokens are not registered in any known country because those are not securities.

You are purchasing virtual Support Tokens.

You're trying to sell securities, and what you are doing is illegal, by your own words. Just because you don't call it a "bond" or a "share" means nothing in the eyes of the law -- according to you.

This smells like a scam.

[usagi]

I'm not sure how you figure this isn't a security. Just because you've given it a new name doesn't actually make your statement "this is not a financial security" a fact.

Good question. The worst thing one can probably do is sell you a something in a nonexisting entity and call it a share or corporate debt or bond or whatever.
This is simply a fraud. 
In our case, you are not sold a stock nor a bond or anything else, that can be categorised under security (fin.).

Everyone read what EskimoBob just wrote: "This is simply a fraud".

When will people learn?

[usagi]

...GLBSE was a only a market. All the stuff sold there was not legal in USA - basically everything offered in this forum.    

Didn't you just say you would have listed on the GLBSE had it not gone down?

So let me get this straight. You want us to believe that your business is legal simply because it's not listed on the GLBSE?

Be careful people. Moderators do not remove likely scams (see the warning above). And this meets all the requirements of a likely scam.

Think about it. EskimoBob is collecting money for a friend to use setting up an art studio. And he's promising to pay 3% a month?

I have a bridge in brooklyn I'd LOVE to sell you. This has scam written ALL over it.

[EskimoBob]

Hello usagi. Is that your retaliation for exposing you as one of the most incompetent managers? Sorry, truth hurts.

I am going to preserve this is because it's just too absurd to let him delete it. 
After, I read trough usagis incoherent rant and manage to find a question,  I'll try to answer as best as I can.

Thank you in advance for keeping the conversation as constructive as possible. Questions, recommendations and ideas are welcome.

If you have questions, please post them here or send me a PM.
 

How do we know you're not just trying to scam us? You are well-known for lying and trolling on these forums, why should anyone help you?

How many times do I need to ask you for the link to a article where I have lied. (Please post it to your made up scam thread)

Thank you in advance for keeping the conversation as constructive as possible. Questions, recommendations and ideas are welcome.

If you have questions, please post them here or send me a PM.
 

How do we know you're not just trying to scam us? You are well-known for lying and trolling on these forums, why should anyone help you?

How is "we" you are speaking for? Please read my previous answer.

Please keep in mind, that those are not shares, bonds, notes or what ever other instrument you can name. Support Tokens are not registered in any known country because those are not securities.

You are purchasing virtual Support Tokens.

You're trying to sell securities, and what you are doing is illegal, by your own words. Just because you don't call it a "bond" or a "share" means nothing in the eyes of the law -- according to you.

This smells like a scam.

Really usagi? I am informing project supporters that those are NOT securities. Tell me (not here, because your own invention, the local rule, applies to you) how did you present CPA, NYAN, BMF etc? LOL. 
 

I'm not sure how you figure this isn't a security. Just because you've given it a new name doesn't actually make your statement "this is not a financial security" a fact.

Good question. The worst thing one can probably do is sell you a something in a nonexisting entity and call it a share or corporate debt or bond or whatever.
This is simply a fraud. 
In our case, you are not sold a stock nor a bond or anything else, that can be categorised under security (fin.).

Everyone read what EskimoBob just wrote: "This is simply a fraud".

When will people learn?

For a English teacher your ability to read is amazingly weak. 

---

...GLBSE was a only a market. All the stuff sold there was not legal in USA - basically everything offered in this forum.     

Didn't you just say you would have listed on the GLBSE had it not gone down?

So let me get this straight. You want us to believe that your (Edit: bld. added by me) business is legal simply because it's not listed on the GLBSE?

Be careful people. Moderators do not remove likely scams (see the warning above). And this meets all the requirements of a likely scam.

Think about it. EskimoBob is collecting money for a friend to use setting up an art studio. And he's promising to pay 3% a month?

I have a bridge in brooklyn I'd LOVE to sell you. This has scam written ALL over it.

LOL. Trolling?
Usagi, pleas, get your facts straight and then try again.
You have completely failed to understand what was GLBSE's role. Again, this is a wrong thread for this. Lets talk about it somewhere else. Remember, "Local rule"

[CharlesPonzi]

If there is any sort of profit sharing it is a security.

Its not a security if people get ARTWORK

The question is if you get a piece of ART sent to you in return for supporting artists is that considered profit sharing ?