Bitcoin Forum

There may be a lot of frenetic activity about BitInstant offering a bitcoin credit card, but I have to ask, WHY?
Does it make bitcoins any easier to get?
Why do you want to inject the huge security hole credit card numbers present to bitcoin, which is intrinsically immune to payer identity theft?
The only thing you can do with a Bitcoin address is send money TO it. Tying it to credit card lets anyone who steals the card number able to put charges on the account.

One of the best things about bitcoin is that it's NOT A FUCKING CREDIT CARD! Let's keep it that way!!

man, I actually can't wait for one of these cards, I use visas as essentially a debit card, and a bitcoin debit card would be PERFECT, its exactly what I need to be able to buy what I want.

1. BitInstant card is a debit card, big difference, you can only use what is pre-loaded.
2. It looks cool to load bitcoins on to your card real-time = nice way to attract attention to bitcoins.
3. Easy and fast way to cash out bitcoins anywhere anytime.
4. Seriously, how can you not think this is great for bitcoin?

Doooood, it makes bitcoins better to hold. Now that slush money you like to have readily available, it sits in bitcoin.

seconded, I can't wait to go buy some shit I need from sport check with bitcoins, also want to see the expressions on the cashiers face when she looks at it  8)

It does keep it that way. Bitcoins are a CURRENCY.

People can use currency however they see fit. That includes storing/using it safely or exchanging for other currencies.

This new debit card simply gives people another option. A HUGE option IMO. (side note: There is no way 5,000 initial cards will be enough)

Having said that, I understand your concern about security.

My own mother had her bank account linked debit card number compromised and thousands of dollars stolen before she realized it. Luckily the bank reimbursed her (tip: use Credit Unions, people!).

I told her it was a BIG mistake using her bank account linked debit card for things (swipe for groceries, gas, etc. = too many vulnerable spots, even dishonest gas station cashiers) in this digital age.

I told her first to get a NEW non-compromised card and account number. Then I told her to set up a SEPARATE free checking account somewhere, anywhere, one that comes with a debit card. Then put only a few hundred dollars at at time into that account and use THAT for her debit card. IMO everyone should use this technique (especially if non-tech savvy) at it limits your possible losses, and increases charges awareness.

This Bitcoin debit card would be PERFECT to use with my security method, as a fund-as-you-go debit card.

I think its awesome and it will tear down peoples fear of "computer money" because it is in a form they already use. I think Gavin's grandmother would even approve.

I might even get one for my kids and stick their pocket money on it  :D

Most of that is a little excessive if your bank likes you enough to trust you at your word, a quick call to the bank claiming your account has been compromised should get any of that funny stuff fixed same day.

The fraudulent charges were intermingled with her legitimate charges over a span of 1-2 months (my mom isn't as to-the-penny balance aware as I am...). The total fraud was around 3K if I remember correctly. My mom had to file a police report and highlight the charges she claimed were fraudulent. Her credit union said they had insurance for that kind of thing, but I don't know how often they allow you to use it... I also don't know if regular greedy commercial banks would be as helpful. I've never had to go through that myself.

Remember, this is a DEBIT card, not a fee or interest paying credit card the bank makes money on.

ahh, I see your point, that sounds terrible! (makes me want to go check my reports even :S)

It looks to me like it's how Bitinstant is ultimately going to destroy Western Union.

As long as MasterCard is accepted in the recipient country, and the cards can be used internationaly, it makes it very cheap to transfer purchasing power from people in developed countries to their relatives back home.

Yup, that's one of three main reasons.  With a card that can be loaded using bitcoins, you can add funds to my card.   Or, as competition for remittances, a person can send bitcoins to load funds to the Paycard that he sent to his family.

A second reason this is important.  This becomes an easy to use point-of-sale terminal for a merchant.  BitPay.com offers a very similar service already, but they work with your bank account (e.g., ACH transfer).    This lets the merchant spend the funds wherever Mastercard is accepted and by withdrawing at an ATM.  Faster access to the cash is important to many merchants.  [Use as a point-of-sale terminal assumes that there is some notification to the merchant, such as an SMS text message, each time a payment is received.]

The third reason this is important.  It makes it easier to get by without a bank account.   I can store my wealth in bitcoins, but spend in dollars when that is more convenient or less expensive.

Sure, long term it would be nice to not even do any payment card transactions, and pay for everything using bitcoins but we are a long way from that.  This is like a bridge that helps get from here to there.

There's a 1% fee to fund it, right? Is there any exchange rate hit too, or is that included in the 1%?

And then I assume the merchant still pays the usual Mastercard fees?

1.49% or something like that was the target.  The details were still being negotiated I believe I had read.


Yup.   The nice thing is that on these the Bitcoin logo is right there on the front.  You'ld think after learning that bitcoin has lower (or nearly no) fees, and the customer probably asking the merchant if they accept Bitcoin -- that it only has to happen a certain number of times before the merchant looks into accepting Bitcoin directly.

I see this as a great step forward, already people are using okpay and stuff. But a Bitcoin based business will have a lot more Bitcoin awareness than the current processors that add Bitcoin as an option to their fiat methods.

I'd actually like 2, one for personal and one for my pool - I could fund the card in Bitcoin and pay pool related bills that are in fiat, rather than sell the coins, get the fiat to my bank account and then transfer to credit card to pay invoices. Anyone else in a similar position will find this a boon I feel :)
Much Much Much rather this method than the PayPal one :)

Without reading the rest of the thread...

It makes Bitcoin easier to spend.

Yours, Captain Obvious.

Thanks for the info... Just to be clear, to your knowledge, does the 1.49% (or whatever it ends up being) cover exchange rate spread too?

Regardless, I agree that this should start driving merchant interest in bitcoin directly, which is why I'll use the card.

i understand the card has a 1000 usd limit
to transfer 1000 on costs 1.5%
a card costs 10 dollars ,do they expire ? will there be a 3 digit ccv code on the back  for online purchaes ?
is there additional fees on taking that $1000 from an atm if you need cash  ?
will visa or AMEX  offer an alternative ?

im excited about it ,i want one providing the charges for using it are not excessive

I am just wondering when MC/VISA shuts this card down on the grounds of drugs/terrorism/fraud risk/other BS.

I don't see why they would allow BTC to get very big... maybe the 1% fee is enough for them to forget how dangerous BTC is to them - you never know how stupid greedy folks can be.

there is scores of other "virtual credit cards " that can be loaded with cash vouchers and they dont seem to get shut down

bitinstant  could argue that all these cards could be used to spend drug /fraud/illegal money just as easily since they can be funded by anonymous moneypak  and ukash vouchers in usa and uk respectively

+1

Okpay provides debit cards fundable via bitcoins since months.
(the fees are pretty high, though)

high fees are a killer for me ,if its too damn expenive to use it
i would just use a another debit or credit card than be penalised
for spending my btc

i even get kick backs for using my regular credit card of a few %
back per month so the BTC version wil hopefully be as cost effective
as a normal debit transcation

should even be cheaper since normal card companies have the charge back risk
and they need to pay staff to sort out unauthorised transcations and reclaiming
from merchants

since BTC transcations are irreversible ,there should be a lot less work for the people at mastercard

I think this is VERY cool. The problem with BTC is how to spend them out of the still very limited "BTC accepted" early adopter community. A debit card that can be loaded with BTC and used to pay for things and services in good old meatspace seems the ideal solution at this moment.

i think this is very good development, i mean it will make adoption of bitcoin faster.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here. If the funds backing this card are bitcoin, does that mean bitpay will convert it into local currency (dollars, for instance) when it's used at a merchant that doesn't know anything about bitcoin? That doesn't sound plausible to me.

By the way, there's also a story circulating that MasterCard has denied that it will issue these cards.

Frankly, I can't see the major credit cards validating bitcoin because it's probably the biggest threat to their hegemony on payment since they were invented.

It's exactly that. You load the card with bitcoin and when you buy something it work like a normal debit card, the merchant receive dollars/euros/whatelse he is asking. BitInstant receive your bitcoin and exchange them for dollars/euros. Like BitPay.
That's true, BitInstant issue the cards, not mastercard  :D

Joe, it would be considered a success for BTC if Mastercard and VISA adopted it as a currency unit among their portfolio of 158+ other national currencies (although that is not what the BitInstant card does). Yes, bitcoin is a long-term threat at the P2P payment level and so is paper cash; however, in bitcoin's role as independent nonpolitical monetary unit, BTC is just another 3-letter currency symbol out there in the world.

See my related comments here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102494.msg1125924#msg1125924

@matonis So, MC and Visa do currency exchanges automatically? At quite a hefty charge, I'll bet.
How can they do chargebacks, though?

no idea on the limit, there is absolutely no reason for it to expire since its a debit card, and it should have the CCV code for mastercard purchases.

It should work exactly the same as a prepaid credit card from western union or cash money.

Mastercard never see bitcoin. The BitInstant guys receive your bitcoin, exchange them and put dollars/euros on the card. Then you can use it like any other debit card.

Buying bitcoins via cash deposits +  Bitcoin denominated debit card + SatoshiDice = ?

Mastercard never see bitcoin. The BitInstant guys receive your bitcoin, exchange them and put dollars/euros on the card. Then you can use it like any other debit card.
[/quote]

Ah, but can you load it with dollars and have it exchanged into bitcoin?

It turns your bitcoin wallet into a bank.

That is well worth it in my book.

This was my knee jerk reaction as well.  But look at it this way - you don't have to get involved.  Bitcoin is going to be used in a number of ways you disagree with.  Let it be.  Some ideas will flourish, others will flounder.  I can definitely see the benefits for some people who aren't all into the security features of bitcoin.  And as much as it'd be nice to have a bitcoin payment system that takes into account the security features of bitcoin, it is still very early.  Why not piggyback off what exists now to get the ball rolling - especially if it serves some sort of need?  The more people start using bitcoin (in any form), the more leverage we will have later down the road to modify the current system to use more bitcoin features.

Sigh.

Does the card make it easier to get bitcoins? No. Does it make it easier to spend bitcoins? YES x1000

When these cards are available, and someone then asks, "well... but what can you spend bitcoins on?" You can now answer, "everything."

Until Bitcoin is ubiquitous and used by everyone everywhere, there is and will be a massive need for moving funds between the normal world and Bitcoin world. This card helps tremendously with one half of that equation (coins -> fiat). And of course, for people like OP who are scared of credit cards, they don't ever have to touch one of these. It's just one more cool option, and frankly I'll be the first customer (I made Charlie promise).

You can go to a store, show the card to the store owner and say "I can pay with this, and you lose the merchant fee, or I can transfer the BTC directly to you and you save yourself the merchant fee".

I agree, I'll be customer number two if I can  ;D

Here's my example use.
I'm starting a business. Right now I'm keeping my company's cash in Bitcoin, because to get business checking it's: drive to bank + fill out forms + wait a week or two + pay $10 a month per account, while with Bitcoin it's: generate a new BTC address + ... oh wait, done.
I have people working with me scattered all over. While I am near Washington DC, one (possibly two) of them are in California, one in Pennsylvania, and one possibly in Israel. Plus this job will very likely require travel to other currency zones. With these cards, I issue them all a card for business expenses, keep the balance at $0, and if any of them need money for something, I just open up my Bitcoin wallet and send them some BTC. Ten minutes later they can spend it. This also gives me a single central account I can be in complete control of, and a publicly verifiable account (block chain) to verify my own accounting against.

This is awesome.

Il certainly be having one. I looked into the OKPAY card but I believe you fund the card with BTC but your balance is held in USD. With this card you fund are held as BTC. As far as im aware anyway.

You keep your businesse's cash in Bitcoin? How the heck do you manage the volatility? When Bitcoin loses half it's value in one day do you tell your employees their paychecks have been cut in half? Pretty ballsy.  :o

make a video and photos
what will be the first thing you will buy?

Totally!
+1

That was my thought.  Hell we are a Bitcoin business and we secured a line of credit from bitcoin lenders in order to have a tool to hedge our exposure.  Not many small businesses can afford to see the purchasing power of their working capital decline by 50% in a day.

Petty cash. Only $500 to $1,000 for now, unless we need more for travel. The hundreds of thousands of USD I'll be raising will obviously be in an actual bank account that the investors will be confident enough for me to use (they have the money, so it's obviously their say, and I wouldn't feel comfortable holding up to $500,000 USD in Bitcoin, anyway). That large cash, however, will be spent very rarely and in HUGE chunks, so there's no reason to keep it in something as easily accessible/transferable as Bitcoin. But for petty cash that needs to be spent often and in small amounts, Bitcoin is definitely more convenient.
There really hasn't been that much volatility lately either. Sure it shot up from $10 to $15 and back to $10 in a week, but otherwise it was rising from $5 to $10 over the course of many months, and I have more than enough buffer to be comfortable with it.

That's something that the details are still being worked out on it seems.  Most likely no, there will be a USD debit balance for the card.  But BitInstant will make it easy to convert bitcoins into USDs (1.5% fee) and either no confirmation or 1 confirmation, which hasn't been determined yet either.    

The problem I've seen up until this point from elsewhere is that this transfer can be done, but not in real time.  But perhaps this specific issuer is able to offer real-time transfer, and then it is just moving the USD credit from BitInstant's account with the issuer to the cardholder's account. It sounds like it would be so simple to do this but for some reason it just isn't offered that way (real-time) anywhere, as far as I know.  

The other part that was left unanswered was if a card swipe (authorization) is attempted for more than the USD balance, could the authorization trigger the conversion of a sufficient amount of Bitcoins so that the authorization would have sufficient funds and be approved.  That would allow you to never have to manually transfer from your bitcoin account with BitInstant to your USD account.   I'm thinking this is like way down the road, at best, but if they can do that, you never need to carry a USD balance, the bitcoins are converted with each purchase.

We know there is demand for this.  Anyone who has a reloadable debit card that accepts Direct Debit (ACH) is able to convert their bitcoins and withdraw to their debit card now -- it just takes a day or three for the funds to get added.   This can be done from BitFloor, Camp BX, FastCash4Bitcoins, and others -- today.

And there is also a growing number of people cashing out to PayPal, which, can have tied to the account a debit card.  Those account-to-account (A2A) transfers are spendable immediately.   Or you can convert Bitcoins to MoneyPak and load your card that way -- another method that is essentially instant.   So this movement from bitcoin into debit cards is already happening, just that what BitInstant is saying makes it the easiest, fastest (and in most instances, cheapest) method for this.

I really hope they do figure out how to keep the balance in BTC and exchange to USD only at the point of sale. Otherwise it really would be just another MasterCard that is rechargeable with Bitcoin, but otherwise just holds USD (albeit I guess with lower fees).

How is the Bitinstant card different from http://bitcoin-debit.com/ ?

The other important differences are the loading QR code on the card itself giving the ability to load without visiting and logging into some website, as well as the presumably high speed of the loading.
(zero confs(?) due to bitinstant having your verified ID and limits on amount that can be loaded)

The convenience this adds compared to other rechargeable cards I've seen discussed, seems like the drawcard to me.

Probably this is how http://bitcoin-debit.com/fees.php

Alternatively,

 how's about an exchange that automatically exchanges BTC to fiat and then pays it out via various (cheap) methods straight away including the UK FPS.

 If paypal or Skrill didn't have chargebacks their cards would work well with this.

edit: Perhaps there's a way to script/automate this? What are all the cheap methods to withdraw BTC to a card?

Wow that's a lot of fees.  No thanks.

i agree ,safer cashing out through an exchange and transferring the funds to your regular bank and debit or credit  card than being raped by excessive fees

I remember having seen a website offering some kind of bitcoin rechargeable debit card preloaded with some coins, where no documents were needed to purchase them, but I'm unable to find it anymore.

Can anyone help me find it, or maybe I was just dreaming when I was browsing that site? :)

This? -> https://shop.bitcurex.com/ ??

Yes, Thanks!

Has anyone tried it yet?

following the link https://shop.bitcurex.com/10-bcc-bitcurex-card-visa-eur.html that should bring the shop gives a 404, so I suppose the service is discontinued

I live in the UK, will I be able to get my mitts on one of these bad puppys?

Would you be willing to sign-up with a service that already provides this?

What I don't get is why do you have to buy the card? WTF?

Since when do you have to buy your debit card from your bank?

That's retarded.

Do you have Credit Card Annual Fees where you live? Same thing. Usually banks can afford to print out the cards for "free" because they make a lot of money from servicer fees and such, from having A LOT of transaction volume. My guess is these guys don't expect to have a lot of volume per customer, and so need to recoup their costs. If this thing takes off, I wouldn't be surprised if they did become free eventually.

TL;DR For now, just think of this as a one-time $10 account fee :D

Yeah a $10 fee for a card that can instantly transfer BTC to USD and allow withdraws from ATMs is nothing. I would pay a lot more.

It's already available for $3 for the card and 0 fees to load it. Bitinstant relies on ignorance as it's business model though, and you are the perfect customer.

Your bank makes money on you other ways, so giving you the card for free is fine if they lose $10 on that, but make it back on fees.

We will likely do the same thing, if you buy a card with a $1000 topup, then the card is free, ect. (not confirmed)


Yes, this card with have Canadian support: Sign up here: http://goo.gl/vl3nX


Of course! Sign up here: http://goo.gl/vl3nX


We will!


Thanks for the kind words.

We are actually using this card to go after the remittance market. By using Bitcoin as the middleman currency, a maid in NY can send this card to her family in Mexico and pay less then 3% in total fees.

This card will be our entryway into the broader consumer market by showing everyone "Hey guys, this is a great advantage of Bitcoin, here is a consumer product that anyone can use" My grandmother who lives across the Atlantic Ocean will see the utility in Bitcoin now.

Regarding your snide comment, BitInstant relies on quality service and premium customer support for our business model.

You just claimed everyone in this forum is ignorant, I think you should apologize to everyone

Thanks

-Charlie

I concede it could be useful for sending money to 3rd world countries, I had actually advertised the service (in a positive note) as such. Though there are ways to use bitcoin to exchange for 3rd world currency with a net gain rather than 3% fee. So I've changed my opinion on such matters.

You really think every one on the forum is a bitinstant user? Otherwise I don't understand why you'd say I said everyone on the forum is ignorant. I've mistakenly recommended more users to your service than the vast majority of these forums BTW, I think you should apologize.

BTW the reason I say you rely on Ignorance? Your site still charges 6% for a service available on your own site for 1.5%+ cheaper than that and preys on ignorant users. Exchange>virwox>paypal to be specific. Volume discount? Why bother when you can rip off unsuspecting customers with "premium customer support" :)

I'm sorry if you feel insulted. You are a valued customer and we appreciate it.

When I see wrong information on the forums, I need to swiftly act and call it out, no matter who is saying it.


You said our whole business model is based on ignorance when you are only talking about a minimal part of our model.

By the way, you were talking about our debit card being relied on ignorance, now you say Paypal? Huh?

Yes, many forum members use our cash out system here and they are no where near ignorant.

The fee is 6% including Paypal fees no matter where in the world your account is located. We've partnered up with Virtual World Services GmbH in order to make this possible, since they have the only virtual currency approved account with Paypal. The Paypal and middleman fees we are required to pay per transfer are over 4.5%, for this reason we charge 6%.


Thats equally insulting. Most exchanges and businesses here are known for terribly customer service.

We made it a point to have people 24/7 via phone and email no matter the size of the transaction.

Many people will pay extra for this type of support, especially large traders who do 30k+ a day with us

-Charlie

Huh? Where? I'd like to see it.

https://www.walmartmoneycard.com/walmart

There you go. Fundable via direct deposit (ACH) connect the dots.

This is what I was talking about with the ignorance about bitinstant debit card. No offense toward the people that don't realize you can use almost any pre-paid debit card that accepts direct deposit (amex also has one, among others). How can I blame you since bitinstant has put quite a bit of effort pretending they are doing something innovative with their debit card. But bitisntant advertises as "finally you can spend btc via debit" when really it's been around for a long time at a cheaper cost.

AND, bitinstant fail to realize. Their debit card will require SSN. While most WU transactions do not. How much of the volume being sent out of the country is by people without a valid SSN? I would bet it's the vast majority.


You pay more to use their service than I do to use your service plus their service plus btc-e service? You are getting ripped off.

for a $500 USD transaction

sell on btc-e 0.2% fee $499 USD remaining
Transfer $499 USD from bitinstant btc-e > Virwox 0.89% fee $494.56 remaining
VirWox charges 1% Bitinstant deposit fee $489.6144 remaining
Virwox fee $1 USD + 2% for paypal withdrawal
Total =
$478.84 in paypal account for a net fee of
4.23% any where in the world, since VirWox charges the same fees anywhere (nice spin attempt)

Compared to the 4.5% fee you pay, damn. Maybe it's time to renegotiate? You fee doesn't even count the exchange cost for the customer which I have included in my calculations. So they can add another 0.2-0.5% on top of the 6% you charge.  Basically you charge 2%+ to save people from the huge "hassle" of registering a VirWox account and claim you pay more fees then I would using your service.

Yup.

Either way you do it is fine with with me.

However calling people ignorant and calling my business model ignorant because they cant do what you said above is not nice.

Wouldn't you agree?

Huh? How can I fund those with BTC? They're not accepted at WalMart.

Whatever trolls say, bitinstant cards and other such services are very valuable and useful. I am looking forward for competition in this area and lower fees.

I cannot wait when I could get every Bitcoin Magazine contributor and contractor such a card and stop having  payoneers and paypals and other such services requested as payment methods. So that we could pay either direct in Bitcoin or in Bitcoin to such a card.

I would also use it for most purchases I do for Bitcoin Magazine. (assuming fees are reasonable)

Umm, I guess he is saying that you can get a walmart money card, which can be funded by ACH. So, whenever you want to spend money you just:
Transfer your BTC to an exchange that offers ACH withdrawal.
Trade your BTC for $ on the exchange.
Request a withdrawal to your walmart money card ACH account.
Wait a few days (or same day for just $3 per $200)
Swipe your card.

And if you are not willing to do this for every transaction, you are apparently ignorant.

I can't wait anymore to have my card! I will be able to store more wealth into bitcoin knowing that I can spend them anytime I want.
That's gonna be a good occasion to speak about what bitcoin is to every merchant that I will pay with it.

+1

You have no idea how much I'm wating for your card Bitinstant :)

Same here.

<crickets>

 ::)

Man, you just posted on like 3 of our threads within 10 minutes. I know your excited, but I can't comment on all of them.

Please see my response on the other.

Charlie

This is a totally different topic. TOPIC: Paycard

The other thread was dealing with Moneygram transfers.

lol ^^

My precious...BTC :D