Bitcoin Forum

I. Introduction

Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards.

II. Why The Marketplace Matters

Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users.

III. Mud-slinging

We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults.
Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming.

IV. Baseless Accusations

These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102798.0)). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one.

V. Fear-mongering

This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself.

VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD

Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that.

VII. Mob Mentalities

Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it!

VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

IX. Addendum: BS&T

First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice.

X. Conclusion

I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it.

Best regards,
BinaryMage

Binary excellent post. I couldn't agree more about your Xenophobia theory (9VIII. Xenophobia).  I don't know how you solve human nature maybe its worth bringing in professionals who know how to solve these sort of things?

For a lot of us we help curate this forum and it does seem an odd number of problems you mentioned above.

+1

Make it a "must read" for the newbees and a few of the oldbees as well.

Thanks.

I have to agree about the BS&T thing, and it happens on other topics too. There will be multiple threads about the same topic. People, please just reply in the relevant topic, starting a new one just clutters up the forum and makes it harder to find relevant information.

New users are restricted to reduce the number of sock-puppets. However, the best description of this forum I have seen is that "even the trolls have trolls."

Bitcoin is also a currency with irreversible transactions. This makes it a magnet for scammers. It is understandable that people will be cautious after being burned one or more times (and want to warn others to be cautious).

I don't really have any way out to suggest though. The official bitcoin project (http://bitcoin.org/) distanced itself from the forum over a year ago. I think moderators moving threads probably helps clean up the forum quite a bit, but I mainly browse the main discussion section out of habit.

+1

open forums are headless monsters.

it just do what it do.

I completely agree with your post.
When the media does research on the Bitcoin subject (and unfortunately, much of that research nowadays consists on a Google search which never sees the second half of the first page, plus a quick reading of some Wikipedia article), they'll find the biggest Bitcoin forum, and the idea they get of it will be the one that's transmitted to other people.

I've even read on a magazine published in my country that Bitcoins are hard to buy (this, on a story about Armory). Said that way and on that story, it only makes Bitcoin seem more and more obscure, not something you'd expect to pay your things with at the supermarket in a few years, for example.

"In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect."
So perhaps we should start by changing the perception the media gets, so people will expect something else as told by the media?

1.  I will be suspicious of any new member that comes out with a product or server for profit before they do something else for the community for free.  Especially if that person will not reveal their real identity.

2.  People will not be civil, polite, and stop flaming or spreading spam until there is consequences for these actions.

I personally don't see much of a problem.  The community, as a microcosm of the internet generally, is full of dick-heads.  So what?  I value the fairly unobstructed view into the community psychology and I think that a whole lot of rules and regulations and P's and Q's to watch would make that more foggy.  Maybe the more dick-head-ish tend to be more vocal and obnoxious, but most internet user's will have figured that out by now.

I'm actually more offended by a signature block full of advertising spam than someone calling someone else a naughty word.  But that's just me.

I guess the thing to do is lead by example. If you stay above the name calling and only post thoughtful responses, and give props to others who do as well, and generally ignore all the immature people, eventually this will be a better place.

How many of the people who have a problem with civility will respond in the desired manner to a public plea?

You can plea all you want, but I don't think it'll change things.  This is about as free and unrestricted of a forum as you'll find, which is why it is what it is - a cesspool.  A while back, I attempted to start up a competitor forum that would actually ban people if they weren't sufficiently respectful, among other rules, but was unable to draw a sustainable crowd.

So, I await the next true rival to the forum, that I may move on to someplace less... awful than this.

There is the totalitarian way to have good behavior - by rules and punishment - and then there is the libertarian way to have good behavior - by letting people make the choice themselves. We do not have to change the rules, we must  just encourage people to act better.

@ OP:

+1

+1

Read the OP as well as all the posts leading up to me submitting this one.

~Bruno~

Hence, MNW's FUD tax ;D

I post on messageboards which enforce this rule and it has pros and cons.  Very often people won't read more than the last page of a long thread, so threads frequently get derailed by people asking questions which have already been answered in the thread.  It gets very old, very fast.  

One feature which helps make mega-threads manageable is the ability to pull up all of a user's posts in a thread.  This would be extremely valuable if people were only interested in reading posts by service operators or others commenting "officially".  In the Bicoinica threads, it would have been useful to be able to pull up all Amir's or Tihan's posts in those threads.

I think that the most recent forums split has made it even harder to find important information.  Important information related to services is posted just about anywhere and is often found in counter-intuitive places.  The Intersango megathread is a good example of this.  From September, they won't be accepting GBP transfers until they find a new bank but that information is buried in a general Marketplace thread, not in Service Announcements, Service Discussion or Trading, which are the places you'd expect to find that kind of information.

People start new threads when they feel their particular point or question is being lost in the general noise or ignored.  Sometimes it's ignored because people consider it irrelevant or it's the 7,000th time a particular point has been made or question asked.  Merging threads or locking new threads about an existing topic (with a link to the existing thread) are options which might be useful but they require more pro-active moderation than is usual around here (if you're going to merge or split threads, you need to do it early otherwise it just creates a mess).

While I totally agree BinaryMage, I firmly believe that for things to change, the mods need to start working harder, and actually moderating this place.   A stricter stance on everything you listed in the OP would greatly help keep this place more civil.   That, along with actually merging multiple threads rather than having 12 on the same subject would go a long way to making this a usable forum again.

Right now it's a pretty horrible place to be, which is NOT a good thing when we're talking the primary site for all things bitcoin.  This is where new people to Bitcoin will arrive after 1 google search, and right now I very much doubt they'd stick around.

Asking for civility on the open Internet is like asking a dog not to drag its ass on the carpet; it is an exercise in futility.


http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory.jpg

If you think its bad now you should have seen it before the newbie section was introduced and the SA troll invasion happened.

+1


Absolutely.


Everyone who was here at that time knows this to be true.

Thank you for making this post, I've considered making one like this myself, but I knew I could not describe is sufficiently eloquent.

What bothers me most is the fact that people really do act like the stereotypical idiot on the internet, when it's really easy not to. Just look at the people not doing it, in fact just act like you're IRL, it's not that hard. If someone comes up to you in the street and makes you an offer that sounds to good to be true, you might not even politely decline (although it would be the mature thing to do) you certainly don't scream "SCAMMM, PONNNZIIIIIII" at the top of your lungs, and even bother to come back to him and insult him, like it happens on the forums.

What I would basically suggest is that people should act more like a real world adult ... that shouldn't be too much to ask.

What's that I hear? People should be more social and less retarded? Genius!

I agree. There are some variables that complicate this (internet, anonymity, etc), but ironically it's not a problem unless you're trying to promote anonymity (which I disagree with, just look at the sockpuppetry here)

Love this post, it should be posted in the Newb sections stickied.

Someone once told me if you cry about it, it will all go away. There is lots of crying on this board but nothing goes away.... so stock crying about everything.

The answer is simple:

Only participate in discussions you find valuable, ignore the rest.

If someone is knocking on every door in my neighborhood with a utility scam, I would follow him around to my neighbors so I can warn them on the spot. If one has the right to solicit, another the right to anti-solicit. I would also call the police.

Warning people about scams isn't fun but it is civil. However, promoting scams, even if done politely, is extremely ant-civil.

As for baseless accusations, they aren't looking so baseless now are they? There was a strong basis, starting with evidence of absence (not to be confused with absence of evidence), that pirate was a operating a ponzi scam.

I think it works better to say "ignore it and it will go away".


Hey, I'm a sockpuppet, and I still try to be civil.  ;D

When someone joins a new community, online or otherwise, he observes the behavior of others and mimics it. If he sees everyone else is trolling he is much more likely to do it themselves than if everyone is civil. The choice of joining also depends on the existing atmosphere - a civil community will comparatively attract more civil people. Once the established culture is civil it can be maintained with minimal effort. This is why I don't buy the "this is the interwebz so there's nothing you can do about it" argument.

Of course, given that the current atmosphere on the forum isn't civil, something will have to be done to change it. The OP shouldn't be seen as trying to convince the trolls as it is unlikely to have such an effect. It really is an invitation for an open discussion between moderators and veterans who care about making the change, to see what kind of behavior should not be tolerated and how to act on it; ideally veterans should feel comfortable reporting to mod obvious transgressions, and the mods should have the capacity to deal with them.

Basically, if you agree with the OP and see the kind of behavior it talked about, report it to mod, and if it's a borderline case maybe also post about it in meta to see how others feel about it.

I agree, on one hand there are these completely brilliant ideas of Bitcoin, on the other hand this forum esp. some subjects look irrational / trolling / flame.

Clearly, the forum is liberal and doesn't stop people from some mild misbehaving. It's like from a Stephen King's book, people start misbehaving mildly, and end up misbehaving badly. The liberal way to resolve this could be to label the quality (the number of posts is a sign of quantity). Speculations: People discussing in a civil way should be labeled so, and/or vice-versa. This could be either some voting thing, or a moderator's decision. Or maybe the plea will work and people will respond less to some notorious trolling.

p.s. btw I think I have not encountered the "bad trolls from the past", so congrats on this little progress ;D

Civility will continue only when it's proven that there is an acceptable level of accountability around here.

I hear that there's a good chance of that happening, if, under the right circumstances.

The coloured "ignore" label was an attempt at letting the community show its opinion on the value posters bring to the board.  While it doesn't indicate why a particular poster is being ignored by other users, it does serve as a warning that community members have made a choice to ignore that person's posts.  I'm just not sure that it's function is readily apparent to newbies.  And although it's explained in the newbies section, I'm not sure how many people realise that the VIP member status is a bought one and not an indication of the esteem in which the user is held.

The ethos of this board is strongly anti-censorship.  That needs to be remembered when looking to the board administration to enforce a given standard of conduct.

I figured that since I only visit this forum occasionally,I should add to the discussion (even if people don't fully agree with me) as to what made me an occasional visitor instead of frequently checking this forum every hour of every day (except when I need to sleep-don't skimp on sleep,it's not good for you) like I used to.One of the reasons I noticed was the fact that like OP of this thread said here,I would witness many otherwise fine threads being turned into flame wars for seemingly no reason,plus the lack of moderation makes it difficult for me to say that I can confidently do business trouble free without the fear of being trolled myself. Civility will only come when the environment here favours/is adapted for this goal,rather than a free for all like it is now.At the end of the day I still have a choice to go to another site (although none are as popular as this forum though) but we should also aim to improve things here so that the environment will let Bitcoin thrive like it ought to really.

I made my own forum in a response to the fact that some people from elsewhere (not just here) were telling me that they were trolled excessively on the internet.My forum covers other topics apart from Bitcoin so there should be something for everyone,I hope.I could use new members/visitors as I wish to see if I can help create a more friendly atmosphere for innovation and exchange of ideas (which itself is the experiment).www.dreamislands.forumup.com (http://www.dreamislands.forumup.com) is the link for those of you who are interested.I mention this as I wish to show what I'm doing to at least help address some of the concerns raised by OP and that I can aim to make online comunities a better place to be.The ethos is the user experience is key to the users on my forum.

In my opinion, the most destructive problems with trolls here occur in the marketplace section. In other areas people are simply discussing ideas, and worse case the authors topic gets derailed and he can always make a new one. With marketplace trolling the damage is more permanent in several ways.

First of all this is a forum centered around a method of exchange, and allowing people to complete those exchanges freely is critical. Second, because there are no charge-backs, as well as lots of fraud, reputation is EXTREMELY important in this environment. Now while trolls might not (usually) completely destroy ones reputation, they certainly are very clearly able to severely inhibit trade by making it appear within a thread, that the trader is attempting some kind of scam. I believe very strongly in preserving free speech, but I think this is being used as a straw man to draw attention away from the fact that no one is countering these trolls.

I am of the opinion that OPs should maintain control over their own marketplace threads only - IE they can delete anyone else's comments.
If some one is abusing this right, there is absolutely nothing stopping every other forum member from making a thread exposing it. Trading here for over a year, even with the bubbles, general volatility, and fraud up the wazoo, by far the most annoying and stressful inhibiting force here is the troll population. In my opinion, it is worse than 4chan, or any other troll haven I have seen in that regard. If Bitcoin is expected to be taken seriously as a trading platform traders need to have more control over their marketplace threads. Otherwise people who might have provided value to the community show up, start trying to trade, and are immediately swarmed by a bunch of dicks driving them off because they assume that is what the community is like. This is not an atmosphere which invites growth or refinement.

Of course, the large proportion of Bitcoin businesses that are actually Ponzi schemes - and the perhaps even larger proportion that are indistinguishable from Ponzis - would never cause anyone to conclude that the media is right. ::) (Not to mention all the various self-described ponzis of varying degrees of honesty.)

I also notice that all the people who have been screaming "troll!", "liar!", "put your money where your mouth is or shut up", etc at anyone who points out just how shady all the investment schemes on here are somehow don't feature in your plea for civility. Funny that.

Very well written and I couldn't agree with you more, thank you for taking the  time to express what a lot of us our thinking in such an eloquent way.

+1.

I, for one, actually feel that at this point most people are not really ready for Bitcoin and Bitcoin is not really ready for them in some ways either.  I've said that in another recent post, but I forgot which one it was.

Probably the people who power through the negative posts that are (supposed to be) ubiquitous on these forums are slightly more ready to navigate the Bitcoin world than those who would be turned away by them.  No harm done IMHO...but I'm not trying to run either a legitimate business or a scam off Bitcoin, nor do I need my speculative investment in BTC to bear fruit...well...ever, so other people may feel differently.

The vast majority of that would fall under III, but if you think I should add an additional section, I'm all ears. I entirely agree that Bitcoin investments are shady, and many are Ponzi schemes. There is, however, a distinct difference between logical assertions made once and endlessly repeated 'PONZI! SCAMMER! DON'T INVEST' posts and threads. The latter I object to, as I fail to see what they contribute to the community. If you think otherwise, however, I would love to hear your reasoning.

I agree, but that is no reason to dissuade people from Bitcoin unused to the toxicity forum communities can have. The question is not 'what are we doing entirely wrong' insomuch as 'how can we improve'.

The problem really lies in the Marketplace, where posts are over run by random dumb comments. If someone post a security, goods, or services type post why do people feel the need to comment if they can not contribute? I have had one person follow me around on this forum like a lost puppy dog since the first day I signed up its sad but amusing. Other people might not want to put up with that mess and just want do business.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98767.0 Think its the 2nd post lol
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99542.0 4th post not so bad but still I think he follows me cause he likes me lol.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99556.0 last post.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104547.0 And today......

For the most part his comments are just noise and space clutter, but that's the type of thing that scares away other people. As people get older they tend to put up with less of this nonsense, and no body should really stand for it. But what are we to do as the whole? I think the Market place needs a overhaul really bad with stricter posting guidelines.

The problem with the Marketplace is that its overrun by "give me money" scams and ponzis. "Give me money and I'll give you back a percentage of it" scams are extremely anti-civil and damaging to the community and to the economy.

The dumb clutter is all the comments like "he paid me back 20BTC so I just gave him 2,000 BTC :) two thumbs up. trustworthy guy with high rating". Everyone can see where that logic got them with pirate.

Marketplace, securities, lending, etc. would be removed it were up to me. Pirate and pass-through operators and ponzi copycats and "mining biz" loan-takers should start a forum for themselves on bitcoinhyip.biz.

+1

The entire marketplace on a system based around a method of exchange should be removed? Smart. Idiots will always soon be parted from their money, as they always have been. This will never change. Scamming is one thing, but a holder of assets can not claim to have no responsibility in the matter.

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Thats part of the freedom of speech of course and I fully support!, but....
Moderators and administrators with their special powers are not accountable when profiting from proven scams???
not even needing to fear that those brotherhoodly gained powers are being taken away or even questioned ?


Even we newbies, coming with press transported hopes and illusions can see, that this forum is an undemocratic, inbreeding chain - letter, where moderators, heromembers
are colluding to skin us off.
If this is a false impression, I appologize , but then tell me , how the highest authority is allowed to leave this post uncommented:

And I have been a very interested observer as you have learned how to put together your ventures. Your learning process has been very public. You just need to think about tightening up on the details now that investment mogul has turned to as-yet uncharged con-conspirator. You are standing at that crossroads where you have to decide who you are- a scummy little sycophant who is trying to bluff his way out of responsibility with empty words, or a man of honor who will do the right thing, and own his mistake, be honest about it, and work to make it better. And perhaps, a small note of humility and contrition?
[/quote]

[/quote]


The fish stinks from the head and some slates need to be wiped clean, if bitcoin wants to get not only the smoke and mirrors image intended by this forum but rather
the factual trustworthyness, inherently given by its technical properties!

Lets see how far there is still a freedom of speech ingrained at this place
left alone consequences to damaging groupthink  :o ??? ;)

proven scam != likely scam

I think it would be in the very best interest of the community not to let obvious scams run rampant on this forum.

You say freedom of speech. Well, people can run scams, but why should people that come to this (i suppose the larget bitcoin forum), be exposed for it here, and I also think that such operations should not be allowed to run ads here.

If the mods and admins do not want to 'censor' such criminal enterprises, then perhaps there should be some feature that people could use that would lable users and threads that are likely to be scams, as such.

To avoid being scammed in this community it seems you need to be super paranoid and having a engineers degree. :) Of course, the old saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is" is still valid.

I don't think known scammers and schemes that are 99.9999999% sure to be frauds should not have any place whatsoever in this forum.


There will always be scammers and frauds, but I don't think we should support them or avoid taking actions because of 'freedom of speech'.

obvious scams, likely scams are not proven scams   am not asking to take anything down but asking for consequences to the powers of moderators and administrators
when they try to or actually profited in proven scams !

Theymos thinks that by ignoring criticism, that people here will forget or overlook his active roles in the scams.

This place is a sewer of scam artists and miscellaneous bottom feeders, including some of the admins.

Still no problem here....everybody should be free to sell anybody some bridges.....this is free human will.......and for that I like this place.....but privileging some
in this game is wrong......there must be a higher moral standard and integrity to people , who are handed the power over others.....and when evidently attained
the ordour of dishonesty and greed in their behaviour those powers have to be taken away or any attempt at civility is completly in vain !