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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Mikestang on May 04, 2015, 04:52:47 PM



Title: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 04, 2015, 04:52:47 PM
Get ready, it's coming...

http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks

Quote
I’m going to submit a pull request to the 0.11 release of Bitcoin Core that will allow miners to create blocks bigger than one megabyte, starting a little less than a year from now.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: bittyfree on May 04, 2015, 04:58:18 PM
For what purpose is the bigger block? Why is there a need for a 1 megabyte block, the blockchain works fine like now?
Blocks only get big when there are many transaction in them, so how could a miner create a bigger block without that much transactions


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: sdmathis on May 04, 2015, 05:04:29 PM
Okay. This may be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Are bigger blocks good or bad? And why would they be good or bad?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 04, 2015, 05:08:40 PM
It's better to be proactive than reactive, there's a ton of discussion about the "why" already out there.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: dasource on May 04, 2015, 05:09:25 PM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Meuh6879 on May 04, 2015, 05:12:21 PM
increase block size may injured bitcoin node ... because of the pollution of trading (high trading).
people that need speed ... must build sidechain (or offchain strategy like bitpay ou coinbase).

i don't agree to increase block size except if it has a limitation ... (like 10MB).


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: sdmathis on May 04, 2015, 05:17:24 PM
Okay. This may be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Are bigger blocks good or bad? And why would they be good or bad?
Bigger blocks allow more transactions per block, if the size stays at 1mb you may make a transaction and instead of the 10 minute standard you may be queued for the next block so it will be longer for any confirmations to hit, it does make the blockchain bigger but only by the size used per block, so it will scale slowly.

That makes sense. Thank you for answering my question.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: spazzdla on May 04, 2015, 05:17:32 PM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: manselr on May 04, 2015, 05:18:44 PM
Okay. This may be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Are bigger blocks good or bad? And why would they be good or bad?

When the time comes, if we want to take over the world (that's having the volume of transactions of say VISA, or all of them combined -mastercard, paypal, etc etc- we'll need a bigger block size to not saturate the blockchain. The problem is, as far as im concerned it would require a fork, so 2 Bitcoins would exist if some of the stuck up idiot purists don't abandon the 1MB blockchain. Correct me if im wrong.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: BCwinning on May 04, 2015, 05:21:15 PM
except the size was already ok before gavin changed it once already, now it's being changed again and will need to be again down the road instead of allowing the network to decide (miners) he's taken it upon himself to set hardcoded limits where there was none originally.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Amph on May 04, 2015, 06:01:28 PM
but my question is why they choose 20mb as the next size? 5 or 10 weren't enough? did he tested those value?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: RodeoX on May 04, 2015, 06:12:04 PM
but my question is why they choose 20mb as the next size? 5 or 10 weren't enough? did he test those value?
If we see a mainstream adoption and a large rise in users no 5 or 10 may not be a enough and we would have to fork quickly. Think if for some reason Bitcoin blows up (maybe a stupid celebrity starts using bitcoin like Kayne) and we get 100k users in one day, with more jumping on the band wagon after and they all start trying it out, blocks would start to fill quickly.
I think that's right. It could be 5 or 10, but we don't want to have to do this every year.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: lontivero on May 04, 2015, 06:13:22 PM
The real block size is up to the miners. The protocol (wired in the bitcoin reference implementation) can suggest a MAX_SIZE and miners can agree on that. However, they can mine blocks with size between [MIN_SIZE, MAX_SIZE] and that means they can include any number of transactions per block always they respect the agreed MAX_SIZE. Note that it is possible to mine blocks with zero transactions for example.

IMO there is an incentive to keep the block size small because it makes the space in them scarce, and we know what happen when something is scarce. Given the block size is 1MB, if your transaction requires 60kb you have to pay more fee than if your transaction is 800bytes. So, bigger blocks could reduce the fees but at the same time miner are allowed to introduce more transactions per block, what means more fees for them.

I really don't fully understand all the implications around this change because even when the current block MAX_SIZE is 1 MB, miners don't mine 1MB blocks. In fact, I read that one of the most common sizes is around 731kb. Clearly, for miners is not the same to broadcast to the network 1MB than 20MB because if I mine a 20MB block and, at the same time, other miner mines a 200Kb block, its block will spread faster than the mine one.

So, I don't see the incentive for miners now. What I mean is that currently they earn more with the 12.5 bitcoins that the protocol gives them that with the transactions fee and for that reason I don't know if more transactions per block (more fees) worth the risk.
      


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Klestin on May 04, 2015, 08:34:06 PM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.

Of course it isn't.  If you don't want to store the full chain, run an SPV client.  If you do: http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Desktop-3-5-Inch-Internal-ST4000DM000 (http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Desktop-3-5-Inch-Internal-ST4000DM000).  Pruning is coming, so the storage "issue" will soon vanish completely.

Increasing the max block size does not mean that all blocks will increase in size - they'll increase when they need to.  Does anyone actually take the position that it is better to let transactions back up than to marginally increase the incremental chain size?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Meuh6879 on May 04, 2015, 08:54:10 PM
If 20MB block size comes with pruning feature, i'm OK for this.  ;)
i want a counterparty ...  ;D


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Moebius327 on May 04, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
Finally it was about time!


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Hazir on May 04, 2015, 10:02:10 PM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.
BlockChain is  already almost 40 GB of size, but this change is inevitable. There is no problem with our current terabyte hard disks to storage it. And you dont have to run full node wallet like Bitcoin Core at all.
Electrum or MultiBit will do just fine.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: BitUsher on May 04, 2015, 10:22:41 PM
Okay. This may be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Are bigger blocks good or bad? And why would they be good or bad?

Right now certain projects like Lighthouse decentralized crowdfunding are limited to 684 pledges (unusually low compared to kickstarter) and we can only process 4-7 transactions per second which isn't enough.

We are hitting the block limit more often these days and it is only going to get worse.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: dasource on May 04, 2015, 10:27:21 PM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.

What is a serious problem already? The one who does not know what he/she is talking about is you ....

Blind following the blind going on!


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: BitUsher on May 04, 2015, 10:27:49 PM
For what purpose is the bigger block? Why is there a need for a 1 megabyte block, the blockchain works fine like now?
Blocks only get big when there are many transaction in them, so how could a miner create a bigger block without that much transactions

Increasing the limit won't create bigger blocks on average, but allow for it to happen if it is needed. If we stay at 3-4 tps average the change will have no effect outside of occasionally allowing a 2MB block through because of a large fundraiser through lighthouse or a temporary spike in transactions.

There will likely be a middle ground found because most of the other core developers are wary of 20MB being needed. Perhaps if we give some other projects a bit of time to be released like the lightning network we won't need a 20MB limit.



Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: tokeweed on May 04, 2015, 10:37:24 PM
increase block size may injured bitcoin node ... because of the pollution of trading (high trading).
people that need speed ... must build sidechain (or offchain strategy like bitpay ou coinbase).

i don't agree to increase block size except if it has a limitation ... (like 10MB).

Time to embrace Open Transactions, Ripple, Stellar or whatever for offchain transactions.

Edit:  I say go for it.  Go for the 20mb blocks.  I want to see what happens...  Just hedge your bets.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: pisciolatzu on May 04, 2015, 11:02:26 PM
increase block size may injured bitcoin node ... because of the pollution of trading (high trading).
people that need speed ... must build sidechain (or offchain strategy like bitpay ou coinbase).

i don't agree to increase block size except if it has a limitation ... (like 10MB).

Time to embrace Open Transactions, Ripple, Stellar or whatever for offchain transactions.

Edit:  I say go for it.  Go for the 20mb blocks.  I want to see what happens...  Just hedge your bets.

I don't think i understand your position.
Trading activity has always passed through offchain transactions..

So, do we really need ripple or stellar to make bitcoin work?
Why?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: BitUsher on May 04, 2015, 11:08:09 PM

So, do we really need ripple or stellar to make bitcoin work?
Why?

Nope, bitcoin works fine now , but lately we are starting to hit the blocksize limit more often.

This is what Bitcoin needs to make it awesome-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=970822.0


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: pedrog on May 04, 2015, 11:13:05 PM
For what purpose is the bigger block? Why is there a need for a 1 megabyte block, the blockchain works fine like now?
Blocks only get big when there are many transaction in them, so how could a miner create a bigger block without that much transactions

Here's a Q&A with Gavin and Mike, at some point they discuss the bigger block issue if you're interested.

CoinScrum: QA with Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIafZXRDH7w


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: hmblm1245 on May 05, 2015, 02:23:22 AM
Finally it was about time!
Agreed. This has been an issue for a while.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 05, 2015, 03:04:38 AM
Finally it was about time!
Agreed. This has been an issue for a while.

I don't know enough/haven't been around long enough to know one way better than the other, but I can say that I'm glad something is happening and all the back and forth can stop.  It works or it doesn't, time to find out.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Cruxer on May 05, 2015, 03:29:33 AM
For what purpose is the bigger block? Why is there a need for a 1 megabyte block, the blockchain works fine like now?
Blocks only get big when there are many transaction in them, so how could a miner create a bigger block without that much transactions
http://gavinandresen.svbtle.com/why-increasing-the-max-block-size-is-urgent
http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks

Very good move :), Gavin is strong point of Bitcoin


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: kelsey on May 05, 2015, 03:48:13 AM
one small step for future upscaling one Giant Leap towards complete centralisation  :-X


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Buffer Overflow on May 05, 2015, 04:24:36 AM
This should be interesting.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Kprawn on May 05, 2015, 06:43:32 AM
Correct me if I am wrong... Bill Gates said something like this ..." We WILL NOT need more than 64k of RAM "

He was clearly wrong... Look at where we are now. Satoshi made the same mistake, but the protocol allow for scalability, so it can be corrected.

If we go to mass adoption, we would have more transaction volumes and it's not currently possible with the current block size.

I would rather be pre-emptive than having a situation, where we sit with red faces, when we cannot handle huge transaction volumes and we get forced to do it in the future.  ???


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 05, 2015, 06:46:30 AM
For what purpose is the bigger block? Why is there a need for a 1 megabyte block, the blockchain works fine like now?
Blocks only get big when there are many transaction in them, so how could a miner create a bigger block without that much transactions
http://gavinandresen.svbtle.com/why-increasing-the-max-block-size-is-urgent
http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks

Very good move :), Gavin is strong point of Bitcoin

You second link is the same one I started this thread with. :)


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Buffer Overflow on May 05, 2015, 06:47:14 AM
Correct me if I am wrong... Bill Gates said something like this ..." We WILL NOT need more than 64k of RAM "

He was clearly wrong... Look at where we are now. Satoshi made the same mistake, but the protocol allow for scalability, so it can be corrected.

If we go to mass adoption, we would have more transaction volumes and it's not currently possible with the current block size.

I would rather be pre-emptive than having a situation, where we sit with red faces, when we cannot handle huge transaction volumes and we get forced to do it in the future.  ???

What mistake did Satoshi make?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Amph on May 05, 2015, 07:05:13 AM
and why satoshi didn't think about this? he predicted the increase in adoption for sure, because he predicted big farm, he should have created big blocks since the beginning, at least now with don't need any fork


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Foxpup on May 05, 2015, 08:11:05 AM
Correct me if I am wrong... Bill Gates said something like this ..." We WILL NOT need more than 64k of RAM "
You are wrong. He said nothing like that, and neither did Satoshi. Bitcoin originally had no block size limit; it was added later as an anti-DOS measure with the expectation that it would be increased if necessary.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: medUSA on May 05, 2015, 08:46:45 AM
Bitcoin originally had no block size limit; it was added later as an anti-DOS measure with the expectation that it would be increased if necessary.

Really? I never knew that! Who wrote the 1M limit into the codes? I have always assumed 1M was hard-coded in from the beginning, and miners/pools have been experimenting with the block size themselves to balance propagation speed and fees.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: dasource on May 05, 2015, 09:21:02 AM
and why satoshi didn't think about this? i predicted the increase in adoption for sure, because he predicted big farm, he should have created big blocks since the beginning, at least now with don't need any fork

Bitcoin never had a block size limit originally ... it was added for DOS protection and satoshi himself said it would/could/should be upgraded in the future as needed .. (don't ask me for the post but I am sure someone else can pinpoint it)


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: jl2012 on May 05, 2015, 09:42:18 AM
Satoshi promised this 5 years ago

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.



Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: dasource on May 05, 2015, 10:18:56 AM
Satoshi promised this 5 years ago

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


Thanks that is the one I was thinking off and there is another one where he discussed it IIRC..


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: teukon on May 05, 2015, 10:38:52 AM
As I understand it, Bitcoin blocks were always limited by MAX_SIZE (32 MiB).  It was in 2010 when MAX_BLOCK_SIZE (1MB) was introduced as a temporary anti-DOS measure.

Unfortunately, while many had high hopes that a robust mechanism could be devised to defeat the blocksize problem, no such proposals have survived close scrutiny.  Clever-sounding fee policy discussions (transactions becoming more expensive as blocks grow) were replaced with more general musings about votes (e.g. have full nodes report how long it takes them to download and verify blocks and adjust MAX_BLOCK_SIZE to target a sane duration).  Today, the blocksize limit remains in place and we seem to be left with few, very ugly options.

Disclaimer: I was quite new to Bitcoin at the time and am far from an authority on this topic.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Lauda on May 05, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
As I understand it, Bitcoin blocks were always limited by MAX_SIZE (32 MiB).  It was in 2010 when MAX_BLOCK_SIZE (1MB) was introduced as a temporary anti-DOS measure.

Unfortunately, while many had high hopes that a robust mechanism could be devised to defeat the blocksize problem, no such proposals have survived close scrutiny.  Clever-sounding fee policy discussions (transactions becoming more expensive as blocks grow) were replaced with more general musings about votes (e.g. have full nodes report how long it takes them to download and verify blocks and adjust MAX_BLOCK_SIZE to target a sane duration).  Today, the blocksize limit remains in place and we seem to be left with few, very ugly options.
Bitcoin originally had no block size limit; it was added later as an anti-DOS measure with the expectation that it would be increased if necessary.

Really? I never knew that! Who wrote the 1M limit into the codes? I have always assumed 1M was hard-coded in from the beginning, and miners/pools have been experimenting with the block size themselves to balance propagation speed and fees.
Well you're right although I'm not sure if it was 32 MB. Someone older would have to verify if it had a 32MB limit at some point.
No the 1MB limit was not hard-coded from the begging. This is something that the majority seem to think, but it is wrong. We've reached that point in time where the measure, i.e. limit needs an increase.
We need to make enough room for future users and their transactions.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: DarkHyudrA on May 05, 2015, 11:31:46 AM
Even though getting a 1TB HDD is cheap today, what gets me worried is about the network.
Downloading a 40GB+ file isn't easy in the whole world(tons of places and countries have poor quality ISP with low speeds).
Light weight clients are nice and even I use them, but the blockchain is getting more and more centralized, what kills the initial concept o Bitcoin.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Q7 on May 05, 2015, 11:55:43 AM
I think this has been discussed in-depth in the other thread and has been long in the planning stage. So I would say it's about time. Anyway it is something that we would need to prepare for the future because eventually we have to do it no matter how. If we want to go mainstream, increasing the size to absorb more transactions per block is the only way.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: R2D221 on May 05, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
Light weight clients are nice and even I use them, but the blockchain is getting more and more centralized, what kills the initial concept o Bitcoin.

I don't that “kills” the initial concept of Bitcoin at all.

Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section 8) to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.  A server farm would
only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with
that one node.

The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think.  A typical transaction
would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact).  Each transaction has to be
broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction.  Visa processed 37 billion
transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. 
That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or
2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.

If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then,
sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal.

Satoshi Nakamoto


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: R2D221 on May 05, 2015, 02:34:41 PM
one small step for future upscaling one Giant Leap towards complete centralisation  :-X
How is it a "Giant Leap" to complete centralization? The blocks won't instantly become 20mb and by the time they are it won't be a big difference that storage size will be larger than it is today. We are talking a full Terabyte a year at every block being 20mb, this would have to be one hell of a busy network and at the standard. For 5 years of block chain it would only cost 120$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5AD2RS3903, if you don't think in 5 years the price of 5tb will be A LOT cheaper just look at my previous post and again this would have to be at full block capacity which it won't be for quite some time. The idea of nodes being centralized is only theory and it doesn't hold much water.

But no! The problem is not storage, but bandwidth. At least that's what many claim.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Klestin on May 05, 2015, 02:42:09 PM
But no! The problem is not storage, but bandwidth. At least that's what many claim.

Bandwidth becomes a problem at over 1 MB every 10 minutes?  My moderate Internet connection can download 1 MB every 1/8th of a second.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: R2D221 on May 05, 2015, 03:15:49 PM
But no! The problem is not storage, but bandwidth. At least that's what many claim.

Bandwidth becomes a problem at over 1 MB every 10 minutes?  My moderate Internet connection can download 1 MB every 1/8th of a second.

Yes, but apparently there are people with 56k connection that want to run full nodes...

And now that I think about it, it's still enough to handle 20 MB every 10 minutes, isn't it?


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Buffer Overflow on May 05, 2015, 03:42:27 PM
But no! The problem is not storage, but bandwidth. At least that's what many claim.

Bandwidth becomes a problem at over 1 MB every 10 minutes?  My moderate Internet connection can download 1 MB every 1/8th of a second.

Yes, but apparently there are people with 56k connection that want to run full nodes...

And now that I think about it, it's still enough to handle 20 MB every 10 minutes, isn't it?

Yeah I remember those 56k modem days. That's 56000 bits per second, not bytes. It wouldn't cope with 20MB blocks.



Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Foxpup on May 05, 2015, 03:43:11 PM
Yes, but apparently there are people with 56k connection that want to run full nodes...

And now that I think about it, it's still enough to handle 20 MB every 10 minutes, isn't it?
It isn't. It's only 2.5 MB (V.90) or 3 MB (V.92) every 10 minutes, assuming the node uploads as much as it downloads.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: cellard on May 05, 2015, 03:48:27 PM
But didn't satoshi predict that this wouldn't be a problem? I remember reading emails of satoshi where he said it would never be a problem because technology would catch up as transaction volume grows.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: DarkHyudrA on May 05, 2015, 04:39:58 PM
But no! The problem is not storage, but bandwidth. At least that's what many claim.

Bandwidth becomes a problem at over 1 MB every 10 minutes?  My moderate Internet connection can download 1 MB every 1/8th of a second.

Yes, but apparently there are people with 56k connection that want to run full nodes...

And now that I think about it, it's still enough to handle 20 MB every 10 minutes, isn't it?

The problem is, even a 1Mb needs 3 minutes to download one 20MB block.
Uploading a block with such connection takes more than 10 minutes, and downloading even only the headers will be frustrating.

Although today I have a 10Mb connection(its decent, could be better), I do worry about other people where internet connection is expensive.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Klestin on May 05, 2015, 05:01:06 PM
The problem is, even a 1Mb needs 3 minutes to download one 20MB block.
Uploading a block with such connection takes more than 10 minutes, and downloading even only the headers will be frustrating.

Although today I have a 10Mb connection(its decent, could be better), I do worry about other people where internet connection is expensive.

Why worry?  Nobody is forced to run a full node.  The number of users who have bandwidth and storage to spare is nontrivial.  We are in no danger of a lack of users willing to run full nodes due to those concerns.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: unamis76 on May 05, 2015, 05:08:32 PM
I think it's about time we change. we need to be future proof, and this is one big step towards that.

As for storage, the GB per $ price is quite cheap and is declining in the long run, for both mechanical and flash disks. I think the blockchain size is a bit of a non-issue. Also, the fact that the new limit is set at 20mb won't suddenly make the blockchain triple in size. The block sizes will remain the same. Our usage and the amount of transactions per block are the ones who will make the blockchain bigger, and I think more transactions is a good thing... :)


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: inBitweTrust on May 05, 2015, 05:10:54 PM
Reminder-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306

Quote from: satoshi
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale.  That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server.  The design supports letting users just be users.  The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be.  Those few nodes will be big server farms.  The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate.

Quote from: bytemaster on July 28, 2010, 08:59:42 PM
Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good.  It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.
See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less.  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

I don't predict that we will need to become this centralized but this was the initial plan.
One reason-Merkle tree Pruning scheduled for next bitcoin release(Core 0.11) allowing full nodes that are 1GB.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: HI-TEC99 on May 05, 2015, 05:14:54 PM
If 20MB block size comes with pruning feature, i'm OK for this.  ;)
i want a counterparty ...  ;D

Satoshi said it would make sense to introduce pruning when the blockchain got too big. If a 20MB block size is going to be introduced it would be stupid to delay introducing pruning too.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 05, 2015, 06:04:46 PM
but the blockchain is getting more and more centralized, what kills the initial concept o Bitcoin.

Uh, what?  Substantiate your claim, provide proof.  There are over 6100 full nodes (https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/), and more added every day.  Making blocks bigger has no correlation with "centralization".


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Bitcoin_BOy$ on May 05, 2015, 06:06:51 PM
Bigger blocks ??? I think the block reward decrasing every year , can you please explain more what's coming

Kind Of Respect ,
Bitcoin Boy .


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: jl2012 on May 05, 2015, 06:08:54 PM
but the blockchain is getting more and more centralized, what kills the initial concept o Bitcoin.

Uh, what?  Substantiate your claim, provide proof.  There are over 6100 full nodes (https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/), and more added every day.  Making blocks bigger has no correlation with "centralization".

My home PC is one of those 6100 and I will have absolutely no problem to maintain it even the block size becomes 100MB


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: jl2012 on May 05, 2015, 06:10:10 PM
Bigger blocks ??? I think the block reward decrasing every year , can you please explain more what's coming

Kind Of Respect ,
Bitcoin Boy .

It's about having more data stored in the block. It has noting to do with the block reward


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: inBitweTrust on May 05, 2015, 06:10:41 PM
Bigger blocks ??? I think the block reward decrasing every year , can you please explain more what's coming

Kind Of Respect ,
Bitcoin Boy .

Block reward decreasing approx every 4 years...this proposed fork is intended to allow more transactions to be processed per second to help bitcoin grow and pay for the security.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: redsn0w on May 05, 2015, 06:13:04 PM
For me it would be a nice feature, and it is very needed if bitcoin 'wants' to be mainstream. Because if we compare it with the credit card system we will see that 7 transactions per second - against - 2'000 transactions  per second (visa). In this way we will have a lot of transaction in one block and it will speed up the send of bitcoin.


I'm waiting to see this feature in the next releases and I am sure the majority will choose the right thing ;).


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: bambou on May 05, 2015, 06:41:08 PM
lol @ the sneaky little "kudos" buttons that mislead people into "liking" all his fallacies.


sounds like an Agent to me:

Quote
If any of the other proposed scaling solutions were tested, practical and already rolling out onto the network and being supported by all the various Bitcoin wallets then, indeed, there would be no hurry to schedule a maximum block size increase.

Unfortunately, they’re not; read Mike Hearn’s blog post for details. We are years away from a time when we can confidently tell a wallet developer “use this solution to give your users very-high-volume, very-low-cost, very-low-minimum-payment instant transactions.
http://gavinandresen.ninja/it-must-be-done-but-is-not-a-panacea



Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: inBitweTrust on May 05, 2015, 06:47:04 PM

http://gavinandresen.ninja/it-must-be-done-but-is-not-a-panacea

Thanks for linking me to some great information from a very reasonable guy who has been critical to Bitcoins development. I will check it out.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: redsn0w on May 05, 2015, 06:51:57 PM
For me it would be a nice feature, and it is very needed if bitcoin 'wants' to be mainstream. Because if we compare it with the credit card system we will see that 7 transactions per second - against - 2'000 transactions  per second (visa). In this way we will have a lot of transaction in one block and it will speed up the send of bitcoin.


I'm waiting to see this feature in the next releases and I am sure the majority will choose the right thing ;).
I thought that too but in the last thread about this there were people who were so against this they started name calling and then it was "Gavincoin". I even got negative trust for saying I it would fork and carry on.

Are you serious? Negative trust for saying your personal opinion http://techforum.it/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/asd.gif (amazing). When the feature will be released, everyone of us will choose if 'upgrade' his bitcoin core version or not (this is the good thing in a 'decentralization).


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Buffer Overflow on May 05, 2015, 07:21:14 PM
Let's play a game. Lets see who can spot all the Popescu sockpuppets that will inevitability pop up in this thread.
They'll turn up, oh yes, you can be sure of that. :D


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: okae on May 05, 2015, 08:53:15 PM
Get ready, it's coming...

http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks

Quote
I’m going to submit a pull request to the 0.11 release of Bitcoin Core that will allow miners to create blocks bigger than one megabyte, starting a little less than a year from now.

ty for the link i didnt read it before;

well i think it will scaled slowly, yes, but i think i will need to start buying more hdds right now lol, just to use the btc core wallet :P

and yes i love to use the btc core wallet, so... xD


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: johnyj on May 06, 2015, 12:56:00 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: kelsey on May 06, 2015, 02:13:12 AM
one small step for future upscaling one Giant Leap towards complete centralisation  :-X
How is it a "Giant Leap" to complete centralization? The blocks won't instantly become 20mb and by the time they are it won't be a big difference that storage size will be larger than it is today. We are talking a full Terabyte a year at every block being 20mb, this would have to be one hell of a busy network and at the standard. For 5 years of block chain it would only cost 120$ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5AD2RS3903, if you don't think in 5 years the price of 5tb will be A LOT cheaper just look at my previous post and again this would have to be at full block capacity which it won't be for quite some time. The idea of nodes being centralized is only theory and it doesn't hold much water.

its not the increase in blocksize i was refering to but the way Gavin and co (particularly Mike) go about getting such done.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: tokeweed on May 06, 2015, 03:04:05 AM
one small step for future upscaling one Giant Leap towards complete centralisation  :-X

Yeah...  I don't know if some people are trolling, blind or clueless.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Pecunia non olet on May 06, 2015, 03:23:48 AM
So we have a little less than one year to sell our Bitcoin before it becomes a clusterfuck. Ok, thanks for the info.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: R2D221 on May 06, 2015, 03:51:18 AM
So we have a little less than one year to sell our Bitcoin before it becomes a clusterfuck. Ok, thanks for the info.

You don't want them? You can give them to me.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: kelsey on May 06, 2015, 04:09:43 AM
one small step for future upscaling one Giant Leap towards complete centralisation  :-X

Yeah...  I don't know if some people are trolling, blind or clueless.


i think most rather dig their head in the sand where bitcoin is heading and how few control the code. and the interests of those few  :-X



Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: gustav on May 06, 2015, 04:30:06 AM
https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/595692609999347712


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: crazyivan on May 06, 2015, 04:33:34 AM
So we have a little less than one year to sell our Bitcoin before it becomes a clusterfuck. Ok, thanks for the info.

There s no other option then to reduce the size of the blockchain. BTW, when was the last time BTC chain forked or had any real issue? There are not kids playing in the sand.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 06, 2015, 04:36:57 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D

Yup, and this is what a 250 megabyte hard drive looked like in 1979.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2743/4368314776_c8223ea75e_o.jpg

30 years later you can fit 250x250 megabytes on something the size of your finger nail.  When the blockchain needs a data center to hold it, a data center will fit on your desktop.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: solex on May 06, 2015, 06:44:03 AM
Let's play a game. Lets see who can spot all the Popescu sockpuppets that will inevitability pop up in this thread.
They'll turn up, oh yes, you can be sure of that. :D

Just six posts later one has popped up...

[noise]


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Buffer Overflow on May 06, 2015, 06:45:54 AM
Let's play a game. Lets see who can spot all the Popescu sockpuppets that will inevitability pop up in this thread.
They'll turn up, oh yes, you can be sure of that. :D

Just six posts later one has popped up...

[noise]

LOL. Well spotted. :D


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Amph on May 06, 2015, 07:13:22 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D

Yup, and this is what a 250 megabyte hard drive looked like in 1979.


30 years later you can fit 250x250 megabytes on something the size of your finger nail.  When the blockchain needs a data center to hold it, a data center will fit on your desktop.

we are near that limit with silicon, we can't go much farther with shrinking, 10nm is the physical limit of the material, they need something else soon enough


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: solex on May 06, 2015, 07:52:36 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D

Yup, and this is what a 250 megabyte hard drive looked like in 1979.


30 years later you can fit 250x250 megabytes on something the size of your finger nail.  When the blockchain needs a data center to hold it, a data center will fit on your desktop.

we are near that limit with silicon, we can't go much farther with shrinking, 10nm is the physical limit of the material, they need something else soon enough

Glass storage?
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/jul/17/5d-superman-memory-crystal-heralds-unlimited-lifetime-data-storage


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Amph on May 06, 2015, 07:57:40 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D

Yup, and this is what a 250 megabyte hard drive looked like in 1979.


30 years later you can fit 250x250 megabytes on something the size of your finger nail.  When the blockchain needs a data center to hold it, a data center will fit on your desktop.

we are near that limit with silicon, we can't go much farther with shrinking, 10nm is the physical limit of the material, they need something else soon enough

Glass storage?
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/jul/17/5d-superman-memory-crystal-heralds-unlimited-lifetime-data-storage

last time i heard that they are working on graphene or nanotubes, as a next material, but glass could be another option(a storage in your glasses would be fabulous)

it's seems that they can push silicon to 7nm, but it will be too costly


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: HI-TEC99 on May 06, 2015, 10:33:42 AM
Some day in the future, you will need a data center to hold the whole blockchain, but that's still manageable, since by then each bitcoiner will own a data center  ;D

Yup, and this is what a 250 megabyte hard drive looked like in 1979.


30 years later you can fit 250x250 megabytes on something the size of your finger nail.  When the blockchain needs a data center to hold it, a data center will fit on your desktop.

we are near that limit with silicon, we can't go much farther with shrinking, 10nm is the physical limit of the material, they need something else soon enough

They have been developing something called racetrack memory for years. However, it sounds like fusion, it's always another ten more years until they say they will get it working.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Mikestang on May 07, 2015, 04:54:53 AM
The capacity cliff

And why we can’t use fancy tricks to avoid it

Quote
This article analyses some proposed alternatives to raising Bitcoin’s network capacity, specifically, the Lightning network. But the arguments made are general and could apply to other proposed alternatives too.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-capacity-cliff-586d1bf7715e


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Lauda on May 07, 2015, 05:09:53 AM
Let's play a game. Lets see who can spot all the Popescu sockpuppets that will inevitability pop up in this thread.
They'll turn up, oh yes, you can be sure of that. :D
Just six posts later one has popped up...

[noise]

LOL. Well spotted. :D
Well that escalated quickly. What else to expect from a forum that has over 50% of shills?

One of the worst things is that Satoshi foresaw this. The longer we wait before a decision is made, the worse it gets.
The first transaction (with a fee) that doesn't get included in a block will cause panic.
Don't talk to me about the free market. Are we supposed to fight over who's going to be in the block? Should I pay a $10 fee to send $1? No, thank you. Any altcoin can do it for a much lower one.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: rax on May 07, 2015, 08:35:59 AM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.
BlockChain is  already almost 40 GB of size, but this change is inevitable. There is no problem with our current terabyte hard disks to storage it. And you dont have to run full node wallet like Bitcoin Core at all.
Electrum or MultiBit will do just fine.

With a 20MB block size limit you'll need a full TB per year if the network ever runs at full capacity. With a 1MB limit we're talking a more manageable 51GB/yr.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: jl2012 on May 07, 2015, 09:08:24 AM
About time! Anyone whining about this need to get their marbles examined.


The blockchain size is already turning into a serious problem...  Don't speak with such a vicious tone when you don't know what you are talking about.
BlockChain is  already almost 40 GB of size, but this change is inevitable. There is no problem with our current terabyte hard disks to storage it. And you dont have to run full node wallet like Bitcoin Core at all.
Electrum or MultiBit will do just fine.

With a 20MB block size limit you'll need a full TB per year if the network ever runs at full capacity. With a 1MB limit we're talking a more manageable 51GB/yr.

A 2TB HDD is selling at around US$70 currently. That's $0.096/day, or $2.92/month. And don't forget the cost will go nowhere but down.


Title: Re: Bigger blocks coming in release 0.11
Post by: Lauda on May 07, 2015, 09:10:17 AM
With a 20MB block size limit you'll need a full TB per year if the network ever runs at full capacity. With a 1MB limit we're talking a more manageable 51GB/yr.

A 2TB HDD is selling at around US$70 currently. That's $0.096/day, or $2.92/month. And don't forget the cost will go nowhere but down.
Don't forget also that it will takes us a lot of years before each block is 20MB big.
I'd probably say 5+ years but that's just my guess. Memory and bandwidth will be much cheaper then than it is now.
Also it seems that nobody notices the pruning feature that we're going to have soon.