Bitcoin Forum

420 cannabis

Where are you getting the figure of 700/400 per pound?

Quality cannabis can be grown at 10/ounce, or 160 a pound.

Also, keep in mind, price will drop as it's legalized, not that it's not a high return.

I agree, the price drop will take time, just as it has in Cali with medical.

I got the figure while researching cannabis a while back, but it wasn't for commercial scale grows so I'm sure other costs play a factor.

What techniques do you plan on using for growing?  Will you produce organic cannabis as well?  Do you plan on engineering your own strains?  And do you plan on selling bulk or retail level products?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks for your response.

Have you considered using GLBSE for this fundraising operation? I would be hesitant to just send you some bitcoins, but if you were verified on GLBSE and offered an IPO I would definitely invest.

If not GLBSE, what methods do you propose to protect your investors, both from potential fraud or from legal liabilities?

This is the way to go.

Don't bother. Regardless of your state laws cannabis is still federally illegal. GLBSE wouldn't let you list there. They'd get shit on by FBI/DEA or other federal agents.

I'd also warn anyone interested in investing in this to communicate via tormail.org or some other .onion communication with pgp only. Out of state investors could face serious charges.

From GLBSE's terms of service (https://glbse.com/info/terms):


You realize that GLBSE is already an unlicensed security, bond, and stock market, right? I don't think they care too much about complying with any particular nation's laws. I find this to be a huge benefit.

What about the use of Aquaponics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics)? Granted, it may not be feasible for the type of plants your growing, nor for as large an operation. I find it fascinating though.

I just read your OP more carefully and I now realize that I will unfortunately be unable to participate. I didn't realize you were looking to secure large loans from only a few individuals and that you would be legally unable to offer equity investments to non-Colorado residents. I was thinking you could use GLBSE to issue shares and pay dividends, but you could still use it to issue a bond which you could buy back later. There are others more familiar with the use of GLBSE than myself that could help you with that. I would maybe check in the Securities subforum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=78.0).


Haha, true enough.

It's already been discussed and Nefario (the guy who runs glbse) has said he won't allow it. It's on these forums. But it can't hurt to send glbse support an email asking them again.

Here's an example

Thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85378.0

Post from glbse operator:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85378.msg951891#msg951891

Thanks, I was not aware of this.

He was in a legal state as well. No mention of it being illegal. Anyway the concerns I've brought up are very real. California has shown us this with dispensary raids and the like. It's very irresponsible to solicit loans or deposits which could likely land "investors" in jail on conspiracy charges or worse. It's your responsibility to check things over with an actual lawyer before risking others freedoms based off what you "think" Don't mean to be harsh or shit on your thread but this is dangerous territory for investors and I feel you don't really recognize the entire situation. I'm a big supporter of MMJ. If people were to use tor/gpg/bitcoin there's very small chance of getting caught or implicated. Doing this in public as it stands is very foolish though.

I don't have the money to invest however I do live in Colorado and would be interested in checking out the operation as you guys scale out. Never hurts to have unaffiliated eyes to confirm something is what it says it is.

wasn't that gentleman looking to run an illegal grow op?

Though I cannot disagree on asking Nef first on this idea..

well colour me interested, if you somehow persuade nefario to allow it I'd be more than interested in supporting your operation, as long as US politics don't get involved.

I just wanted to point this out in case anyone else missed it on first read as I did.


Viceroy, are there legal or economic reasons for having a small number of very large lenders rather than a large number of small lenders? You might successfully use GLBSE in the former case, but I think you'd have a much higher chance of success with the latter.

Excellent. Thank you for clearing that up. I personally think it would be great if this were done through GLBSE. You are sure though, that the SEC will not prevent you from dealing with non-accredited investors if you receive loans in denominations other than USD? That would seem surprising to me based on my knowledge of how the government treats everything from barter to foreign currencies, at least for tax purposes.

Well, Bitcoin is not a security, but would a security sold in exchange for bitcoin not fall under the jurisdiction of the SEC? I'm not sure.

I don't know if anyone has specifically been caught evading taxes on bitcoins, but I do know that according to the income tax rules, any financial transaction, even if it is barter, is a taxable event.

It is interesting that CO allows for-profit dispensaries. (California clearly does not)

It is not encouraging to look at prices in California. As legality increases, price decreases. Ganja grown in CA for consumption in CA brings $100/oz ($1600/lb). The further east its brought (illegally) the higher price it commands, up to $5600 on the east coast US.

Costs to actually grow the herb are truly around $160/lb. Before real estate costs (rentals or purchases). (depends on outdoor vs. indoor, and actual goals .

securities sold in exchange for BTC are potentially regulated by the SEC, but no more so than any other security being traded on GLBSE or MPEx or Cryptostocks right now.

GLBSE has already listed and subsequently delisted POT2PEER. This may not be something you can push past Nefario. With a proper prospectus, MPEx might list it - they're more underground than GLBSE, but have apparently more stringent listing requirements. I personally prefer to trade on MPEx - it is considerably more secure.

I would consider investing, but I would need to see a full prospectus from your organization. The general gist of a plan set forth is interesting, but insufficient. Please provide full financial projections - spreadsheets are important, words are largely not.

This seems to be all you have to say :(

I don't think there is any evidence that the OP is a scammer, whether investing in his/her operation is legal is another story.

CR

I hope this is allowed on GLBSE as it seems legal to me in comparison to the last guy that tried it. Good luck.

You keep talking about growing these plants indoors, why not put them outside in the sun where they belong? (sunlight is much cheaper than electricity for lighting, right?)

The bigger picture*

Rather then investing in start up dispensary's (we already got a ton, more then Starbucks)

; dispensary's have the problem of not being allowed banking services. <This is recent! I used to use my credit card all the time at my old one.

accepting Credit card's, checking and saving accountants is very hard and almost all major banks refuse;

Dispensary's are left holding large amounts of cash and during raids they take big hits.

I think the real opportunity is to offer a completely cashless system. The only risk is lost product.

Using bitcoins would also give the customers an added layer of Anonymity then debit/credit as well.


***update Just got informed any FDIC bank is now officaily barred from doing business with dispensary's in Colorado  



http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/09/banks_refusing_to_deal_with_medical_marijuana_disp.php

http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_19016660

Good luck to you Sir!

If I were you I'd change the thread title though... I was pretty sure I was clicking on yet another Pirate Piss Take thread.

I also second the idea of developing a bitcoin payment system for dispensaries, and would be keen to help anyone who takes up the challenge. Fuck the banks and their hypocrisy. They're happy to facilitate all sorts of morally dubious ventures, yet helping the sick is too much for them?

I agree the title is crap, and should be more descriptive.

Bitcoins provides the perfect solution to the problem these people are facing. I would also say that now everybody knows they will have large amounts of cash on hand, so they will continue to be targets for theft, as well as anybody going in/out who must be carrying cash as well. Switching to bitcoins would reduce that risk.

Hey Viceroy, everyone.

I think this is a really cool project which I'd like to see go ahead.

So after spending some time doing research and thinking about this I certainly don't think that this (as it is) is something that GLBSE could host as a project, it would be unfairly putting all assets listed on GLBSE at risk.

As Viceroy has said, this is being legalised in Colorado which lets face it, is awesome. The problem comes from the federal government and federal agencies.

If GLBSE was a Colorado registered business then there wouldn't be any problem with this, but since we're registering in the UK very soon this is not the case. A company registered and operating in Colorado would have the protection of the state as long as it follows state rules.

Something like GLBSE, which operates from outside the US would get swatted down by the FBI (and several other federal agencies, ICE maybe?) so fast, and I'd end up being extradited to Washington to be prosecuted as a drug lord (ok not this bad but you get the idea).

The level of risk/reward for this project seems to be sufficiently high that it would merit it's own website, OK it wouldn't be a market that would allow investors to move out if they wanted to but could allow the management of many small investors for the long term.

I would recommend having one person from the project sell bonds, i.e. make a very large personal loan with many many smaller investors, and then as the single person invest the funds. You don't need a market to do this.

Thinking about it some more, we wouldn't even be able to allow pass through bonds, due to the danger of being taken down as a source of funding for federally illegal drugs production.

Nefario.

Much better title, thanks for changing it.


Could one person offer bonds and hint hint nudge nudge wink wink, invest the procedes into a "high return business" thus bypassing the restrictions, or by asking this question am I ruling that possibility out for everybody?

I know what you mean, I still think it's a bad idea(not specifying what funds are being used for leaves the asset open to abuse).

Really the best thing to do is have someone who is in Colorado (and therefor under state protection) do the borrowing and lending(set up a site in Colorado), anyone else is going to become a target for the feds, and if they're on GLBSE then will make that a target too.

Of course. But that defeats the purpose and people would just claim you are running a ponzi with no business model because you cant state at all what the bond is for and thus would get very few investors imo.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105437.0  is a better way to manage it.

Quite possibly.

Interesting idea, since GLBSE is a no go, what is next for smaller investors? What kind of returns are you targeting? How do you seek to achieve this? Need numbers, dates, timelines for many in the bitcoin community to consider it for large investments. I don;t see what you've got to loose by being transparent with your business plan- and such an effort would give alot of credibility to the cause.

If you did some experimentation, you might find that the fish more than make up for themselves in fertilizer, soil ammendment, and material costs, and also possibly labor due to not having to move huge volumes of soil around. It takes lots of guys to fill up pots and mix large quantities of soil, transplant plants, etc. An aquaponics operation simplifies a lot of this in the same way hydroponics can.

I wouldn't rule it out.

Nor would I rule out fish as a secondary market, especially in the land-locked / semi-desert areas of Southern Colorado (and neighboring states).


You will need a plan to recycle your soil properly.


p

A large, well built greenhouse with a properly designed and installed subterranean heating and cooling system would negate nearly all of your concerns and is done every day in many parts of the world in all seasons.

p

This could be really risky/profitable.  I'm going to do some homework this weekend.

I would think LED lights would have a different spectrum which might not match up with the optimal for plants. Maybe you could engineer an LED light to the absorption wavelength of chlorophyl? You would essentially have the most efficient grow light!

LED's are capable of growing quality cannabis, you need a few different spectrums, but they aren't really capable of growing large amounts.  Specially for the price.

Have you considered using some of your cannabis for biodiesel hemp fuel?  You'll get more energy out of it if you use nicely grown flowers rather than hemp.

I don't mean hemp seed oil, I mean use the whole plant to make cannabis biodeisel.  I've read hemp is good for biodeisel but fully flowered plants will give you more energy.  It'd be cool if you could grow some weed for fuel and use it in generators, sorta like a perpetual energy machine.  Would have to look at the numbers.

It'd be interesting to see how much energy you can turn out with a couple good plants, I'm sure it couldn't power the facility but I wouldn't be surprised the slightest if it outperforms solar energy.

You should add mycelium to the study.

Biodiesel is made from oil.

Triglycerides + alcohol (+catalyst) --> fatty acid ester (biodiesel) + glycerol (+catalyst)

alcohol is usually methanol but could be ethanol.
catalyst can be NaOH or KOH, but more advanced catalysts might work better. Calcium hydroxide or calcium ethoxide or even some solid acids are being researched. Solid catalysts make the separation easier.

There is also a guy out there trying to sell a variant of this process:

Tryglyceride + 2 ethyl acetate --> 2 fatty acid ester + fatty acid glycerol diacetate

Which is a monophasic mixture, thus gives no waste product (glycerol in the usual synthesis). This mix has lower energy content than traditional biodiesel, so the easier production has a tradeoff, which is why it has not been adopted.


To bring this back on topic, you need the seeds to make biodiesel, but you do not get seeds if you harvest flowers.

Perhaps I was thinking hemp ethanol.  I don't know for sure how flowers would affect it, but what someone said, about it increasing the amount of energy, makes sense.  Getting high is a transfer of energy from the plant, after all.

I'm pretty sure all animals have cannabinoid receptors, I know my fish does, works as a medicine on him too.  I agree, there's a few other chemicals that probably played a role in that, as well.

I never believed in god until altering my conscience (over time).

No. No it is not. It has certain chemicals which react interestingly with your brain.

It's both.

Do you know what "energy" actually is?

Do you?

Yes.

What is it?

It requires chemical energy for the plant to make the chemicals, so there is a small amount of energy transfered. The amount of energy is quite small. The affect of the drug is due to interactions with receptors, not because of the energy in the chemical.

Just FYI, you're talking to someone who thinks that cancer comes from thinking negative thoughts. How people trust him with their money is a mystery to me.

Why are you dodging the question? I asked you first.
Energy is classically defined as "the ability to do work." I'd further define doing work as "causing a change." Obviously, you're going to jump on that and say "being high is a change, ah-ha!" Something as primitive as energy, however, is difficult to define; don't pull a MNW.

Now, being high is a change. A very small amount of chemical energy is required to create this change in the brain. If you feel "strong" or "energetic" or something along those lines while high, though, that's not due to an influx of energy (let's abstract energy at least as far as ATP, thanks); it's simply the THC altering your perception.

Going back to the original quote, "Getting high is a transfer of energy from the plant" now. That statement is largely incorrect. Getting high is your feelings, emotions, and perceptions being altered due to the reactions in your brain which use or release a small amount of energy. The use of the word 'transfer' implies you can use the energy transferred. You can't.

I know who I am talking to, I really don't expect him to understand more than half what I say, but for some reason I say it anyway. I also find it mysterious that anybody would trust him with a computer, let alone money.

Thanks for inaccurately answering for me.  I'm not arguing about what energy is, I'm just saying the energy from the earth/universe is released into your brain when you smoke weed, no matter how small of amount.

Scientific proof backs up my claim that sickness is caused by a weak soul, where's your evidence?

You're also claiming that the small amount of energy causes the high, which is incorrect.

No, I said it's a transfer of energy.

Sorry Viceroy, just trying to clear up misinformation regarding cannabis.

I'd like to see your scientific proof.


I have made no claims, what should I show you evidence of exactly?

edit... Viceroy, sorry for the off topic posts, but what the fuck, how could I not respond to this?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2594498/

You inferred that cancer is not caused by negativity, a week soul.  I'm not saying faith in religion will heal you, I'm saying faith in yourself.

If you really want evidence, all you have to do is think, within yourself.  If life is what you perceive to be real, what you believe, if you perceive that you're dying, you're going to die.  If you believe that you're healthy, by having a healthy soul, you won't.

Remember, everything happens for a reason, after all.

What?

How can you have scientific proof that someone has a "weak soul"?

People like you are where all these ridiculous stoner stereotypes come from.

Dank, how high are you right now? You should put the computer down, you are making a fool of yourself.

Is that how you refute claims to make a point?  Attacks?  I haven't smoked since 4:20.

Nimda, I don't know what the point of your post was, you just proved that I said it was a transfer of energy, which I thought we agreed was true, albeit a very small amount of energy.  It's not that complicated, weed connects you to the universe because it is made of the universe, just like you.

You said,
"Getting high is a transfer of energy from the plant."
This is false. The transfer of energy doesn't cause the high.

The chemical transfer and their subsequent energy transfer are what makes you high.  It's both, we can both be right.

Because there is energy in those chemicals, right?

You hadn't made any point worth refuting, I was just giving a friendly piece of advice.

There is nothing about getting high involving transferring energy. None. Getting high is all about switching around which chemicals in your brain are connected where. Attach the appropriate molecule to the receptor and release a bunch of other molecules. It is not energy. Eat some cookies, the sugar goes into your brain, that is transferring energy. Smoking pot is not. There is no "connection to the universe", it is all in your head.

No, you are wrong. The chemicals do not release any energy, they store it and retain it. Sugar release energy when your body metabolizes it, canabinoids remain largely unchanged and are not used for energy.

You're right, the universe is also in my head because we were created by the universe and therefor are the universe.

Which is it?  I didn't say they released energy, I said they transferred it from the plant, through smoke, through your lungs, into your blood and into your brain.  I don't see why both of our statements can't be correct, there's two ways to look at everything.

please stop with this philosophical bullshit.

If you grew up where I did you would understand why I just can't take it anymore.  I hear nonsense like this every day from your typical college hippie that takes a hallucinogen and suddenly thinks hes the smartest philosopher ever.

The next argument from people like you is probably "well you haven't done enough drugs to be enlightened."

It seems the common consensus among your generation is the more drugs that you do the more "enlightened" you become and the more qualified you are to talk about philosophy.

Trust me. I have done plenty of psychedelics, so I would probably fit your criteria for an "enlightened philosopher" (lol).

I have lost friends who are too "open minded" and took their psychedelics experiences way too seriously.

Please just stop. I don't want this bullshit to pollute bitcointalk.org, I have to deal with it enough as it is.

GRR

sry, this kinda stuff just makes me rage

Why does it make you upset?  Does it confuse you or is it too much to accept?  It seems to make sense to me, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as bullshit.

As I said, there's two ways to look at everything.  Perhaps we should move this to another thread, if we'd like to continue the discussion.

Viceroy, the idea for your own website sounded somewhat promising, compared to any other options.

^
It's questions like these that make me upset.

You make a claim that getting high is the transfer of energy from the plant, then when people give you legitimate reasons why your statement is false you start talking about philosophical bullshit in order to make it seem like such a claim is not false. Next, is probably arguing about what reality is and the "there is no such thing as false" argument.


That type of arguing, to me, is upsetting.

Just admit it.  You were wrong. Getting high is NOT caused by the transfer of energy from the plant.

Also, you can't cure diseases through ignorance. Sorry.

I do agree that placebo plays a huge role in everything, but it's not the cure for cancer. I'll admit, optimism could help increase your chance of survival via the placebo effect.

Does science confuse you? or is it too much to accept?

Do these questions seem condescending to you?

Awesome, thanks.

Status:
GLBSE - No, but Nefario supports the idea
MPEx - awaiting response
cryptostocks - awaiting response

Let me just add, since it's related to the business more directly, that weed cures cancer.  Through physical and spiritual healing.  I used to be into science, too.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19442435
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14570037

more condescending words from you.

I can do that too.

I used to be into spirituality and drugs, too. Back when I was young and naive.

I'm done arguing with you. For viceroy and for my own sake.  

Your condescending attitude only further solidifies my assumption that you are that type of person I was describing earlier.

Arguing with people like you is just disappointing.  If someone references something that you know nothing about (transfer of energy) you just fall back on philosophy. I hope you can recognize how frustrating that is to anyone willing to make an attempt to enlighten you about something.

You're only perceiving my attitude that way, I was really just saying I used to be into science, too, while adding two scientific studies.  No negativity there.  If you want to reply, please do so in my Dank Bank thread.

I'd move there if I didn't have other priorities.  Looks nice, I'll be sure to visit, maybe buy some land there, someday.

I would if I didn't put love first.

How many plants can you grow exactly, when legal?

I mean for businesses.

I know someone who grows in Colorado right now, and I know for a fact they don't reach nearly the profit margins you're talking about in the OP.  Granted, the plural of anecdote is data.

Not to be condescending, but have you grown pot before?  A 15,000 sqft warehouse seems like a huge undertaking for a first timer.  It might even be overkill, if CO laws are anything like CA's, I think you're limited to a certain number of plants per patient you serve.

You can try ICBIT, Tycho registered his pre-order ASIC bonds there.... worth a shot https://icbit.se/ (https://icbit.se/)

Considering statements such as http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_17936371 (http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_17936371) which quote:
 ... wrote that the Department of Justice would consider civil and criminal action for those who invest in or facilitate marijuana production.

   Read more: Colorado medical-marijuana bill draws U.S. attorney's warning - The Denver Post
   http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_17936371#ixzz26ESXdpJs
   Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse


The stock exchange could potentially be held responsible for investing or facilitating, hence a listing of such a security is under the current circumstances a risk that we'ld not be willing to take.

Instead of saying " .... marijuana", why not list a security for "planting and selling organically grown herbs and health products.".

Are you still planning on moving with this? I really like the idea although there is no way I would be up for offering the full amount your asking for, if you sort something out where smaller investments would be an option please feel free to PM me.

Good to hear.

Hmm, Viceroy, why are you asking a loan for the plants while trying to put similar amount of money to BFL rigs?

The point is that in one thread you were offering to buy $1M of mining hardware, another you are asking for a huge loan, and in yet another you were asking for 25BTC to form an LLC.