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Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras just announced referendum (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33296839) to ask people about proposed IMF/ECB bailout conditions.
If majority of the people will vote for, austerity measures will be implemented (pension cuts, tax increases, layoffs, privatization etc).
Otherwise Greece have to default and most likely to leave Eurozone and/or European Union altogether.

...

giantdragon

FWIW, my take on Greece is that it really does not matter in the end which route they take.  All roads lead to some version of a default.  What cannot be paid, will not be paid back.  

Greece cannot pay its debts (for various reasons, and various parties are at fault).

Zero Hedge has a new article this evening, saying that for Europe and the USA, it does not matter at all if Greece pays anything or not (they won't pay anything).  The whole "contagion meme" is wrong.  Europe and the USA will fall because of our own high debts.  I have not had a chance to think this idea over for long, but it appears to have at least merit, it is worth a read:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-26/us-europe-will-collapse-regardless-economic-contagion

The Europeans (I mean the troika) have to be reasonable in their demands. When they order the Greeks that they should increase the VAT on essential medicines by 25%, and make demand to Tsiparas that the small benefit which is being payed to ultra-low income pensioners to be scrapped, they can't expect the ordinary Greeks to support them.

Greece has to do a better job collecting on taxes. Greek citizens have to be committed to wanting to pay taxes, to contributing to shared expenses to run that country.

But maybe the real question is, why does Greece need to be in the Eurozone? Do they need it that badly?

finally this can come to an end - hopefully. please leave!

i don't think their problem is tax evasion, increase taxes is not the solution and never will be in a situation llike this, the real solution is offering more job for everyone, and increase the GDP of your country

Alexis Tsipras should be given a nobel peace prize, seriously

he's not going to try and ram through a bad deal in a parliament that has already warned him that his revisions would not pass

so he just goes, fuck it no more negotiating i'm going to let my people decide


it will be amazing to see (if the referendum actually still gets to the vote) how the country decides.

Time for the greek people to put their pensions and euros where their mouth is.


fascinating powerplay decision by Tsipras.

gotta believe that Merkel might actually buckle to this because she cannot supersede Tsipras and the greek parliament. Since this goes straight to the public we're going to see how serious the eurozone is about keeping greece.

I think calling for vote is a cheap and bad way to throw off responsibility for the situation to come. Almost every time people will vote against changes that will force them to lower their living standards. So Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras is making an easy way out of this for himself, if people vote against and Greece will fall he will say "it's not my fault", if Greeks vote for and it will cause some sort of unrest he will say "you voted for those conditions so now don't complain"

Since this is a HUGE change for the people of Greece, the fault should fall in the hands of its people, not the politicians that might be corrupted. We all know how corrupted the other politicians in Greece are, so we might as well assume that Tsipras and/or his party's members are also corrupted.
The thing is that even though the other parties "want" Greece in the EU, they won't take some steps back. I mean if the people of a country have no jobs and no money, you can increase the VAT rate to 100% or lower it to 1%, and you'll still have virtually NO income from taxes etc.

According to me that is not the right step, if he keep asking public opinion votes then they will become accustomed with these and Greek people will demand the same as in future when Greek will rise up economically and socially, I am still sad for Greece for their unstable state.

Well... Tsiparas is left with few options, and I will definitely not blame him. If the troika was at least a little bit reasonable in their demands, then I'd have opposed this latest initiative from Tsiparas. But the troika is not being helpful right now. Just tell me how can the Greeks pay €8 billion per year, when their tax revenues are much lower than that. Tsiparas is trying to get help from outside, but he is unable to do so because of the EU sanctions (for example, agricultural exports to Russia, Turkish Stream.etc).

The Greeks were not in a position to join Europe in the first place.

The books were cooked with the help of Goldman Sachs (with a Eurozone nod) to get them in.

Greece should default, reprint the drachma and take some short term pain and regrow their country by working closer with Russia/China.

Iceland seem to be doing just fine after jailing a few bankers.

Fuck the bankers.

Yeah, debt slavery doesn't usually work out well.

Grexit is the best option for them,

Buying new jobs for nonexisting money? To destruct even more value? I say, remove all forms of work prohibition. Don't pay the debt, it is an illusion to think it is possible, and trying would destroy productivity. Keep using euro until something better comes by (wink wink).

Austerity is good when it is imposed on governments, for people prosperity is good. Politicians love to conflate the two.

They don't have the time.

hi guys. i was reading this post.

I am from greece. i work here and i am 32 years old..

The things here are really bad for the 70% of the ppl.. i leave in a small country that the poor phenomenon is a bit low (thank god) "you can see only the half of the town searching for food at the garbage.

Now the greek ppl did nothing wrong. most ppl here pays their taxes. the problem is not that. The problem is political. every desicion thas was made wasn't for the good of the country but for politicians. Example. We took like 10 million euros for ESPA. We got nothing. all went to banks and politicians.
Also
We payed a Bunched of money for military viecles that never costed so many "the rest once more went to politicians"

All the statistics in order to enter EURO was mistaked made by sacks and our politicias (early 90's) We didn't had the economical power to join the rest of EU

In the end (i cannot speak very good english)

the mosts money went to politicians (THEY GOD EVERYTHING). Every person that takes this country's leadership doen't take them to courts and jail. They are out playing with the rest of us. And we hav to pay for the money they got.. We, our children, and our childrens children...

in my oppinion if a few years(1 year maybe or less), we will be the worst economical country all over the planet. !!!

I'm watching a livestream from the Greek parliament and from what I understand, not even the MPs have a clear idea of what the question of the proposed referendum would be. A lot of uncertainly flowing around.

no it wont be the worst economical country. without the Euro you will be free again and maybe in 10 years things will be better. but now there will start some tough times i think.

look at argentina. they did this twice in 10-15 years time span.

BTW if you're looking for somewhat-objective coverage try the live updates from the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/27/greek-crisis-mps-referendum-tsipras-eurogroup-ministers-live


I would avoid independent.co.uk and dailymail.co.uk as well as zerohedge.com

Start anew with free market and private property, food and everything will appear immediatedly. It's of no use to feed the politicans and the military.

Wait... what exactly is the problem with the voters becoming accustomed with voicing their opinions, and more importantly, having them actually acted on? I understand "real" democracy is hard, and it requires an informed, educated and active public but, surely, this is going in the right direction? If anything, it seems to me that more consultations like this could help incentivize greater public participation and activity, and effectively revitalize their society - and indeed, most Western societies, as we all share the same "democracy" (for sale) problem.

Ya, he is not taking his responsibility.

I believe in democracy, but sometimes asking every other day what to do and doing referendums daily leads to a mess. You need some sort of solid plan to execute.
In this case I would agree for the referendum.

Well they did say how more than 500 ATM's are dried up, and people need to make withdraws, especially now when everything seams to be going down for them.
Given the fact that there is a 600EUR daily limit for cash withdraw,it being in the parliament doesn't enable wealthy ones to dry it up solo.
Not surprisingly, the price seams to be rising slowly over major exchanges; someones misfortune is another mans success i guess.

cheers

The fool is just buying time. I'm very happy his request has been denied. The world has already been waiting far too long for Greece. If Greece expects to keep on receiving money from banks, it must accept what the banks are saying. I've seen a Greek family enjoying a vacation in Paris last month. You wonder how this is possible, when the government says the country is being strangled.

Personally I think Greece will be better off to default.

Another bailout will just be kicking the can further down the road. Take the pain now, yes it will not be easy but neither will it be to take on even more debt.

Who knows, Greece might come back stronger in a couple of years time while most of the other countries are still battling with their debt.

Greece is going into bankruptcy. This referendum is not legal, and after the fact, window dressing.  The Eurozone will be stronger after Greece.

Now we can move on, there are big things to do to move the project forward. Eu is not standing still.

EU will be stronger after cutting away dead weight (Greece), but how will they get their money back and who will enforce the payback ?
As far as i can tell, people are about to go frenzy over there, and it wont end well.

cheers

A final decision on the referendum hasn't been reached yet. The Greek MPs are still debating whether the planned referendum should go ahead, and which are the questions that should be asked. A final vote might happen a few hours from now, at approx. 10 pm Greek time (right now it is 8:45 pm there). So we will be knowing their decision within the next 90 minutes.

A principle of most societies is that if you borrow money, then you must repay it to the lender. The Greeks reject this principle.

That is the crux of the problem.

To fix this problem, Berlin and Paris should expel Athens from the Euro zone. The member states of the European Union should also expel Greece from that club.

Can't get the money back but atleast after a few decades in the wilderness (in which the Greeks live lives worse than, say, Belorussians), the Greeks will mend their ways.

Wrong. The Greeks didn't rejected this principle. They never requested the troika to write off their debt. All they asked was for some more time and an extension of the deadlines. They promised the troika that they will make the payments once the economy picks up. It was the troika which refused to make the compromise.

Bollocks. They (the government of Greece) asked for money to pay back what they already owe, and then more. Every fucking day they needed more money. All they asked for was more money, repayment postponed into "the distant future" (Varoufakis).

Monday is going to be an interesting day...

All the debt is now imediately payable to the EU, the ECB and the IMF. So will the ELA, there is no liquidity assistance any more, and, as always have been known, the banks are insolvent, it was never only a liquidity issue.

And don't forget the TARGET2 imbalances, basically, it is money that should have been moved from greek businesses to their suppliers somewhere in EU, but the greek national bank basically stole it en route, to the detriment of the central bank in the country of the vendors. That's another hundred billion right there.

It is truly a tragedy, an absurd one too.

Someone just need to say it. It has still not been said.

it seems that we had now impulse to kick bitcoin to the moon..local media are full of this greece finance issues and I'm just waiting for word bitcoin in related articles:)

I have been watching the Greek Parliament all day till my eyes are square..I will give my view in depth tomorrow.. The fractional reserve Banking system that was concocted by a few dozen Jewish loansharks in 14th Century Venice is what has mushroomed out to the universal chaos we have today. LOANS AND INTEREST are what make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Greece was sucked in after WW2 into the western hemisphere of borrowing and debt .. The worst fiscal brainwashing on 3 generations of people. I remember in the olden days people lived within their means, humbly and with hard work. Now all we were taught is buy everything we can, bung it on a credit card and it doesn't matter who it will be paid later, as long as we wear the latest designer shoe and drive the latest german car.. We were idiots in the first place for allowing this yoke of fiscal oppression on us in the first place..Our ancestors believed in FREEDOM OR DEATH..WELL we are faced with the same choice today FREEDOM OR TROIKA.. So when you guys and gals go to the ballot box next Sunday your choice is FREEDOM OR DEATH (TROIKA)..I am Greek but I can't vote in Greece as I am a cypriot and british national..but I give Tsipras my vote of confidence because he has guts to challenge the Status Quo even though all the news channels have colluded with the greater powers that be to send the Greeks into panic mode.. One great thing Muslims have in their religion: NO INTEREST - RIBA IS HARAM..Now we wonder why there is a war waged against Muslims the world over..but that's another debate!

Greeks should be less scared and more confident of carving out their own future..They are not kids who should be sitting waiting to be spoon fed from the EU..They should stand up and be counted, rise and grind and make their own brilliant future, because THEY CAN.. Greeks were once pioneers not sheep..they should remember that and strive to make a new europe as they want it to be and a new Greece.. Jeroen Dijsselbloem is NOT your dad!

Thanks, keep us informed.

This principle does not apply to countries, since their central bank can always create money for government to borrow and repay the debt. However, by joining EMU, Greece gave up the right of money creation, thus become heavily debt laden, this is their mistake

In fact, if you look deeper into this principle, you will find out that central banks are always exempt from this principle, because they could always create money and repay the debt as wish. If Greece defaults, ECB will just print some money to cover the hole

Remember that Rothschild said: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws"

And this one suits the situation even better:
"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."

In fact, the great majority of people are incapable of comprehending the tremendous unfavorable condition set by today's monetary system, and they even appreciate it and worship banks and blame those who can not return the loan (It is impossible to repay all the loan in today's monetary system, if someone managed to do that, others will be more heavily debt laden)

The debt can be paid back or it can be written off. But if this happens, all the losses will be exposed, and we will have a debt deflation. Both is bad for politicians.

I think being in the eurozone means that the country is a member of different institutions like the ECB, the eurogroup,  their banks are policed by ECB, they have access to the ELA, and the TARGET2 system. So they might be thrown out of those systems. The people living within Greece may continue to use euro notes and coins without asking. Don't know about bank accounts, may be not. They could possibly use eruo accounts in foreign banks, unless the state get in the way. The state accounting, I guess they could still use euro, and use accounts in foreign banks. The greek central bank could exist, I suppose, but they would not be able to do alot. Maybe help with deposit insurance.

Being stupid as they are (the government of greece) they would probably try to establish a new fiat, but it is futile, they would only be able to steal value corresponding to five billion euros or so out of that system, after that it will collapse.

Hopefully they can stay in the eurozone, even with a government default and banks in the gutter. Maybe they can make some special rules for the greek, like don't care anymore about government surplus or deficit, and let (new) greek banks just take care of themselves.

No. Relatively sound money, a government spending only taxes, banks held in check by the market. Too good to be true.

If the debt is written off, ECB will not get their money back, but their money was created out of nothing anyway. But that might cause a large scale of default from many other southern European countries, and that will hurt the banks' plan: Those money out of thin air should belong to banks but if everyone is like Greece, just borrow and spend those money, then they are actually printing money for Greece! Banks should only print money for themselves, everyone else should borrow from them and pay an interest, that's the plan  ::)

I guess if Greece somehow get out of EMU and start to print money for themselves, their economy will be improved very quickly. And that's ECB scared of, because other countries in EMU will follow suit

Fractional reserve banking is a fraud.  A legally sanctioned fraud.

So it is confirmed. The Greek referendum will occur on 5th July. The MPs voted 179 vs 121, in favor of conducting the referendum. Actually it was funny to notice that the far-right Golden Dawn party, voted with the extreme-left SYRIZA in favor of conducting the referendum.

FOR (179):
SYRIZA - 149
Golden Dawn - 17
ANEL - 13

AGAINST (121):

ND - 76
Potami - 17
KKE - 15
PASOK - 13

I agree, Greece should leave the Eurozone but not for the above reasons..Europe is like a huge dictator that is eroding each country's sovereignty..Why do you think the Brits want to leave? Do you know Greece had a huge cotton and silk industry? Light manufacturing arms etc? All this has gone because of the EU..Now they want to destroy Greece's Tourism industry as well.. It's just another united states of Germany.. Greece unfortunately had a few rich families of corrupt politicians who brainwashed the Masses into believing they could live on debt forever..which we all know is not sustainable..So the Wolves managed to eat many unsuspecting sheep..This is why I keep ramming down the same message to the Greeks..WAKE UP, USE YOUR BRAINS AND HANDS and rebuild your country yourselves, stop waiting to be spoon fed by sharks and wolves that will make you eat each other in the end..because this is the real end game, to create another civil war in Greece so Germany and other countries can pick up the rebuilding contracts.. One thing Greeks have to learn is taking responsibility for our actions..We can;'t keep blaming the Ottoman Turks, or the Nazis or even the EU Bosses..We have to take our fate into our own hands and reshape our history.. That is something only the Greeks can do and if they don't do it, they will just have another master whipping them, if it isn't the EU...it will be someone else..

Also I have to admit KAMMENOS Head of ANEL gave a wicked speech..I liked it..

Agreed and this is why Greeks need to start looking for an alternative..I sent my solution to Varoufakis but don't know if he ever had time to read it lol. Greece should stop clicnging to the EURO like God and create it's own fiscal mechanism, but that can only work if the Judicial System, Tax System and whole population gets educated on how they should love their country and not milk it dry to the ground. In schools they should be teaching fiscal responsibility from a young age..What debt means, what the fractional banking system is, what alternatives, like crypto, are like out there..This should be mandatory..without fiscal education, the next generation is well and trully f*cked, excuse my french.. Let's see what the Ministry of corruption will pull out of its hat.  :D ;)

Oh Yeah? So why were Germany's debts written off after WW2 and why hasn't GERMANY PAID BACK WAR REPARATIONS AND THE DEBT THEY took form Greece? They ransacked all of the gold reserves calling it AN OCCUPATION LOAN that has still not been paid back..and yes I agree Greece was stupid to enter the EU in the first place, with such a corrupt political system in place at that time, it wasn't ready..

BIG MOTTO of this story is stop taking out unsustainable loans, start building your lives on what you have..if you need to take out a small business loan make sure you pay it back, get into profit before ever borrowing more to expand..personally NOT BORROWING ANYTHING AT ALL is the best policy for success, in private life or in business, live within our means and build from there..

you are grossly mis-interpreting the actual will & sentiment of the greek people. Tsipras is not going to present his parliament or his people with a deal that he knows cannot be passed. That would be laughable and career and political suicide. There will be 0 probability of ramming through a deal that the public doesnt support. Since the two sides are vastly apart (on tax, and pensions) its a non-starter at this point, Tsipras knows that he cannot ever gain enough momentum or votes.

By calling a referendum he will allow the greek people to decide its fate, not politicians, bankers, or the elite. The entirety of the greek people will decide what is acceptable. The original bailout never went to the people. It went straight into the central bankers to provide the greek financial system with liquidity. That is where a lot of this mis-trust comes from. The greek people are immovable on pensions, absolutely immovable because of this. They are very jaded by the original bailout, which did not provide enough actual economic stimulus but rather liquidity into the financial banking system.

This is simply a final end game for greek in this era.

If Greece Defaults, Imagine Argentina, but Much Worse
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/business/an-echo-of-argentina-in-greek-debt-crisis.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/business/an-echo-of-argentina-in-greek-debt-crisis.html)

Greece has no exports, they will suffer worse than Argentina.

Leaving the Euro for the Drachma makes as much sense as the existence of Litecoin  :P

If he genuinely wanted the citizens to have the final say he wouldn't have waited until the last minute, and then set the date for the referendum after it's too late to prevent a default.
The guys a communist and he's been playing this game for 5 months, so he can leave the Euro and blame the economic crisis on the EU and join Russia and China.

Greeks export billions of €€€ worth of agricultural products to other European countries (esp. olive, cheese, cotton, wheat, and citrus fruits). Also, Greece is one of the largest exporters of pharmaceutical drugs in the world. And another fact to consider here is that the tourism sector is quite big in Greece, with most of the tourists coming from the non-EU nations.

why stay in EU and just kick the can down the road...they can do the EU austerity plan and prop up the banks etc and lose their gov't services pensions etc
probably accumulating more debt for the future if not generations to prop up EU bankers and not hurt the richer EU countries with a loss

or

they can say screw it and lose 50% of the countries value go into deep recession or depression and lose all the above to REALITY

and eventually in a few years move on

the current setup for Greek payback looks like a 17th century debtor's prison ....you can't pay we will make your kids pay in the future etc no way out for Greece except
default imho

screwed in debt and the battle is lost with no way out .....what does Greece care if they add to the Paper debt 2x 3x due to default theythe amount in penalties if they can never

pay it back  anyway..hell what I can tell they would never be able to pay back the interest at this rate

Hell I'd walk from this deal too...they can take the pain now or just string it out for the next decade or more WITH NO CLEAR IDEA if it would make any difference anyway
with the interest accumulated on these loans with the conditions of banks etc...could do best efforts imho and 10 years from now show NO PROGRESS AT ALL except
kept the EU banks afloat and the EU politicians happy

Hell ARGENTINA has defaulted MORE THEN ONCE to get out of such dire straits as Greece..they seem to have gotten by

again I'd walk to and take my lumps now if I was in Greece too ...dealing with being dirt poor in REALITY is a lot better then this fantasy that these bankers and
the EU are looking after Greek interests etc and would not just string this out for years and years....as a Greek politican you can point to 'reality' we are all in this
together .....with the EU deal you get the same results and point to What? We are still screwed from a bad deal?

reality ..i get ..dealing with assholes and still having the reality of the situation the same ..FU again I'd walk too


heh just wait RUSSIA will a come a calling ..you want to join our somewhat 'lame' Russian Economic Federation (or whatever it is called) Iran ..if they have sanctions removed
you want some help for oil

the truth is Greece will have some pain and it will be ugly ...but they will come out of this just fine imho

(of course I'd like to see BTC in this mix ..but still even w/o)

That referendum, if there's one, is a huge waste of money. Funny how the government is saying it cannot afford to repay what it owes but it still has cash to organize a referendum, something which cannot be done cheaply. Just like last week, when the Greeks are known to be the worst tax collectors in the world, they said they will raise tax to repay their loans. If this was the solution, I wonder why this wasn't done earlier.

I wouldn't buy an used car from Tsipras.

The proposed referendum will cost about €10 million, which amounts to less than 0.1% of the annual debt repayment.


Last week, they said that they are ready to raise taxes on certain sectors, but resisted from doing the same across the board. The troika wanted them to impose a VAT increase on all the goods, while the Greeks refused to do that on medicines and certain other items.

It looks like they (the people) are set at keeping the pensions, and the other elements of the welfare state.

If so, there are two outcomes:

1) They go full tilt stalin including hunger, disease, concentration camps.

2) The EU give them all that they want.

The third way, which is freedom and prosperity, is off the table for now.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live

Capital controls imposed, bank holiday.

Yeah i saw Tsipras in television talking about it. There will be a temporal bailout starting tomorrow... this was so obvious that it was coming. Anyone that gets caught with the money stuck on the banks it's their fault, they had plenty of time to withdraw and convert to Bitcoin or Gold if you are old.

I think most EU members already took their loss.   The point is not so much to get their money back.  The point is to have states having their balances in order, or almost so.  You cannot have a Swedish-style social coverage if you have a Greek-style economy.  If you finance social "security" on deficit spending, for a while you're living on other people's efforts in the EU zone, and in the end it blows in your face.  We can't have the southern half of Europe have a social system living on the production of the northern half of Europe and at the same time have souvereign states deciding on how they collect taxes and so on.
No solidarity is possible if there is independence of decision, because that's a ticket for free riders.

One should not make the confusion between the ECB sending Euros to Greek banks, and a bailout.  One has nothing to do with another.  As long as banks are solvent (that is, they have a balance of their outstanding deposit accounts, and their assets, such as mortgages and so on), there is absolutely no problem in exchanging bank money for central bank money.   When a customer of a bank withdraws Euros, his account is debited by the same amount.  An amount of bank money is destroyed that way (bank money is money on a deposit account), and an amount of central bank money is issued that way.  Normally, the bank had its balance right, and the bank money had its counterparty in a bank asset.  That asset is then transferred to the ECB, to "pay" for the withdrawal.

At no point, the exchange of bank money in central bank money implies a transfer of goods and services, and at no point, this causes any inflationary pressure, as as much money is destroyed (bank money) as money was created (ECB money).

Amen.

In politics, everything is possible.  But I wonder what the question will be for the referendum, given that the EU offer is not valid anymore.  The bailout program has been stopped and finished, as the conditions have not been met.  There is no offer from the EU anymore right now.  So when the Greek will vote "yes", it will be "yes, you should have agreed when the proposition was still on the table, but now it isn't anymore".

Hell no. Greece is bigger than Eurozone (not financial or geographical though).

The Greek banks will close tomorrow and there will be capital controls.

Not necessarily true..Yes Greece had a corrupt judicial and political system, yes Greeks lived beyond their means because the were brainwashed by the powers to be to do so and Yes Greeks were told to borrow to buy german cars, leave the villages to go to the big towns and cities to get so called stable jobs..all this was a huge fiasco and the greek peeps bought it..The main agenda was to create a slavery of peripheral states that would import all the good from Northern Europe..this killed light Industry in Greece, not to mention the tax evasion by the rich and all the elite taking their money out instead of investing it in their own country..Capital controls now should be imposed like China..like no Yuan leaving China without proper inspection, so should Greece stop the flow of money outwards unless for something to benefit the country.. Everyone must take responsibility for this chaos, mainly the Ruling Elite and Mass media for misinforming the less prosperous and educated on good fiscal policy.. The average Greek now needs to get educated on basic fiscal analysis and economics, there is no way around this.if you stay ignorant you get eaten by the wolves and whales.. Greece made the big mistake buying ninja mortgage derivatives from Morgan Stanley. This is what created the main crisis along with the corruption of the PASOK AND NEW DEMOCRACY PARTY Bosses and their cronies.. They did squat for the average joe in Greece, all they did was embezzle millions along with their families and take their monies out to swiss banks, hence the christine lagarde LIST of black money taken out that is now under scrutiny.. BIG LESSON HERE IS LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS, DON'T BORROW A CENT OF INTEREST BEARING LOANS, WORK HARD AND BUILD YOUR OWN FUTURE, DON'T WAIT FOR OTHERS TO SPOON FEED YOU..My message to everyone including our Greek Peeps across the waters.. oh and diversify your assets, that's a MUST..

Syriza openly urges Greeks to vote no. Varoufakis hints that they'll step off from government and support their successors if the outcome of the vote is yes. Madness...

This is SPARTA!

And it should really be called currency controls currency movement controls. I rather doubt they would stop someone exporting the olives.

No more than 60lbs of olives a day.

The referendum was needed imho to end the neverending draging of he negotiations while situation in greece deteriorates. It will also force troika and greek gov to find common ground in a time bounded process. Both parties are (in reality) interested in campaining for a Yes (provided an updated deal). However a No will mark the point of no retreat for *any* Greek Gov, then it will be up to Troika to either cave in or expel Greece from EZ.
Troikas response was breaking greak banks.

In any way the moment Troika scare itself at the lenght they will go to enforce their terms, they are done

The troikas offer is also not sustainable, so if they take it, they will have the same problem later, and there will be contagion to other countries.

So the situation is not good.

It will be a good opportunity for people to re-think many critical questions during this abnormal time:

1. Is it possible for every individual in a country to become richer (e.g. pay back their debt and have some saving) without increase the total debt level of the whole country?

2. Who are the beneficiaries of the increased debt, and who are the ones that get hurt the most?

As per the latest estimates, some €130 billion to €135 billion worth of funds are remaining in the Greek savings accounts as of now. So that means that less than 50% of the funds were withdrawn during the last 6 months or so. I wouldn't blame the Greeks who didn't withdraw their savings. The haircut might be 5% or 10% this time, rather than the rate of 85% imposed on the Cypriot depositors.

what would happen if the Greek take that 12billion euro and buy bitcoin with it ? would we see the first decentralize bailout money economy and what would be the price of bitcoin if the buy at lease 50% of the 12b

Greeks should stay calm but saying that they need to try to diversify their assets as much as possible. This is common investment sense and also not panic. The banks being closed until after the referendum is a positive move in my books.  Until Greeks make their ultimate choice there should be calm and level headed thinking now and the first thing to be done after whatever outcome comes to pass is to educate the people about good fiscal management. Until that day happens you will still see this mentality fo spending more than one's earning happening all over again. Unfortunately America tried to sell the so called AMERICAN DREAM to the Greeks after the 2nd world war but it has backfired so now the greeks have to dig deep inside themselves and look for a Greek solution to the problem and one that smells of common sense not hyped up American Bullsh*t. Also boycott imports from the countries that are hurting Greece most, until they behave and give Greece back it's sovereignty.. You want your money back? Well we stop buying your german cars and what not lol, we will start producing our own..That's what the Greeks should do lol.

http://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/6/28/1435519013071/b071004f-d420-4517-a651-9559f3fcb0f2-1020x503.png?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=efccc74c8bf3dbc96143a7a79a344807

The single currency immediately fell 1.5% to $1.101, down from $1.116 on Friday evening.

Two nights ago, traders though that Saturday was going to yield a short-term bailout extension for Greece.

There are chances that the Euro might even go below the the United States Dollar, if a NO verdict is delivered in the referendum. It is quite confusing, with most of the opinion polls conducted by the mainstream media giving the YES vote an advantage, while the gound reports indicating that NO is having an upper hand.

I hope the EURO drops a good few cents so that the EU can learn a lesson from this ugly game they are playing. You can't call yourselves a EUROPEAN UNION when you tread one lot of nations as slave nations along with the Wall ST Sharks..

Hmm... you don't get it. The European Union was a pet project by the Germans, to create the Fourth Reich. Germany is the ultimate decission maker within the EU, and that is the reason why countries such as the United Kingdom are considering seceding from the Union. The other minor countries, such as Greece and Portugal, are supposed to be the slaves of the Germans.

Critics said Greece was being hammered by northern-European (usually German) ‎austerity-worshippers in a way that wouldn't even benefit the country. Defenders of the programme said the bailout cash would be wasted if Greece's economy were to be no more competitive when the aid programme ended.

well like all humans (myself included) those who have problems with the movement of cash from bank savings etc in Greece are sitting about going
damn...I"m screwed (a common problem I have last to the party ..missed out...end of the line..out of luck etc)

BUT during all this (but probably not much good to the Greek folk in question) I'm sure some 'wag' will tell them about Bitcoin and how
they could have done some transactions overseas and/or moved that w/o the bank and gov't issues

so imho IF this Greek exit stands and say there is a 50% drop in value for those poor folks $$$/property/etc say 2 or 3 months from now when all this
settles in their mind and they sort out wtf happened....

I'm pretty damn sure....that we are gonna get some BTC converts after the fact! :)

(As someone who always seems to trip over stuff after the fact)

anyway ..again imho it will be less about 'stashing euros/gold/etc' to using our BTC protocol in the future at least

(then again as a BTC kool aid drinker my views are suspect) :)

Don't worry I totally get it and I am livid at the fact that the U.S and the rest of the EU hasn't put pressure on Germany at all to pay back its debt and war reparations to Greece and the Greek people but is rewarding and siding with the Nazi Agenda instead. What a selfish and one sided world we live in. I certainly don't want to be a part of this kind of EUROZONE.. I am sure the Brits will exit the EU in no time when their referendum takes place in 2017 and good that they are going to BREXIT as well, at least they see sense..Now they need to get rid of the German Queen they got as well lol.. I wonder how many Brits know they have a German Royal family ruling them rofl? ;D ;D Funny how they changed their name from SAXE-COBURG to WINDSOR to make it sound more English lol.. Peeps really need to read more history and educate themselves.. Greece also had a German King (OTTO) when they threw the Ottomans out..I just don't get that why couldn't they plonk a Greek dude on the throne if they wanted a king lol?

Varoufakis mentioned that they might create some cryptocurrency and backed by Greek government. If it succeeds, then people will know that even a clone of bitcoin can save a country, then what bitcoin can achieve will be above the Mars  ;D

they should just say NO, stand back on their on feets and ask for acceptance later, once they will be able to connect in "legit" way, not like last time..

OMG when did he say it? I wrote to Varoufakis about a month ago and posted also on his blog to do this lol..I really hope they do it and succeed..I hope they remember haha..I think this is the best thing for Greece to do, to move to the future, not backwards..

The Brexit situation is very complex. Voting for Brexit means a vote for the disintegration of the United Kingdom (as the Scottish parliament has warned that in case of a Brexit, they will secede from the UK and join the EU on their own). So at least some of the anti-EU folks in England and Wales will be tempted to vote YES, in order to keep the Kingdom united.

Sadly, it's too late for Greece. But other folks can be made aware of what's happening before it's too late for them.

I am wondering that, Greece being a member of an European Union, how come the union leader let their union part to fell down drastically which causes them to go down drastically to the level of bail out condition, there must be some jointly conference to monitor and caution their members while they are loosing control in crisis management.

I feel sorry for the everyday people who where lead to this day by just a few crooks in power  >:(

If I was a Greek Citizen I would say, get out of the European Union all together and be in charge of your
own monetary policy and use BTC if at all possible.

what I don`t understand is why are the banks closed? I thought the banks had the peoples money in them.

or is it that fiat is just one big SCAM!  ;)

Nah, all banks are insolvent. It happend the day they gave the first timed loan from untimed deposits.

We are today in October and the referendum was made. Everyone know the results of it. I saw even the results of the pool in this thread. I am thunderstruck by both of those. How is possible to not known the debt you have to someone? How is possible to vote to not give the money to the owner? How is possible that the people of bitcointalk be so ungrateful.

Greeks have made the life of sultans for decades with the money of the others and don't want to pay back those money to the owners. This is accepted by 60% of the Greeks and by 68% of bitcoiners (bitocointalkers). This is really sorrowful. I have no words about this.