Bitcoin Forum

Hello everyone,

I am looking for a 100 BTC loan so that I can invest it into a mining rig (looking at 5850x6 setup ((1,360 MH/s)) if I can find the cards and if not then will get 6950x4 ((1,316 MH/s)) setup).

I will provide my name, HD color photo of my ID, my address, HD color photo of my social security card, phone number, references and other personal information to whoever is willing to provide me with this loan, but I am not going to post all of that information here on a public forum, please message me if you are interested.

For now, here is my name: Rudolph Andrew Whiles

I will choose my lender based on who is willing to provide the most agreeable terms for their loan (interest rate, expected time-frame for repayment, payment options, etc...)

I plan to repay this loan with profits made with the new mining rig and paychecks when I start working again as I am currently unemployed but seeking employment, I want the mining rig for a side source of income.

Electricity is not an issue for me as I don't pay a power bill.

If you have any questions or need any more information, please feel free to ask!

Thanks!!!


***Copied from below for those interested in the math of what I am proposing:

Consider some math here:

My current setup SUCKS out loud. I mine BTC at roughly 10 MH/s.

If I take that same setup and apply it to LTC mining my setup maxes out at about 20 KH/s (est. LTC/Day is roughly 9 LTC) which ALSO sucks out loud.

With my proposed setup I can mine BTC at right around 1.3 GH/s (a more than 100x increase in performance). Apply that same 100x performance to LTC/mining and I should be seeing somewhere around 2 MH/s for mining LTC at which point I could mine solo and expect to find a block every 5 - 6 hours or so which would be roughly 200-250 LTC per day which I can then sell the lot for just under 1 BTC.

At this rate I could expect to see roughly 21-25 BTC per month mining LTC which I would give 70% (roughly 15-18 BTC) to my lender until the loan is paid off with interest and keep the rest for myself.

At this rate I could pay off the loan in about 6 - 7 months.

Sorry but your rig will most likely never pay for itself depending on when ASIC arrives.

Consider getting a bfl or similar and purchasing an upgrade.

Hmmm, I was thinking about getting a couple of jalapenos, but their description of a release date: "First shipments from 'possibly late October' ranging to 'before Christmas 2012'" concerns me slightly, for all I know that could be pushed back or not even happen at all as I have seen some speculation around the forums and irc's about BFL being a scam...

I am never a fan of buying first generation technology, I would rather wait until the BFL's come out, others have tested them and offered their input here in the forums and irc channels before I go investing money into it.

I figure it will be safer and get me up & running sooner to go with a gpu rig for now and then use the profits from that rig to start paying off my loan and upgrading to an ASIC when I feel more confident in them...

bumping because I still need it...

And I need Sasha Grey to slob my knob.

How many BTC does she charge for that?

I think what he is saying is that investing in GPU mining at this point in time is a very bad idea/investment therefore a bad idea for a loan.  If you want to go against the grain and buy a few GPUs then buy them a cheap as you possibly can - including the cheapest financing you can possibly get.  Financing in BTC is very expensive so I would suggest fiat financing.

GPU mining is going to be pushed aside just like CPU mining was so unless you have found some other use for the GPUs then your rig will never pay for itself, let alone make a profit.

... sickens me when kiddlets treat the bitcoin system like an atm machine. The whole point of mining is to keep the system functioning, not as a personal source of income. Many have already found this out the hard way, i guess its time for you to learn it to.

Well, I was mainly looking to mine LTC rather than BTC since LTC is still pretty profitable with gpu mining, then I was going to sell LTC->BTC->USD

And I am planning on getting ASIC's, but not until after they've been released and proven.

You MUST be trolling.

Kiddlet...? First of all, I'm 30. Second, I'm not treating anything like an atm machine, I'm doing EXACTLY what everyone else is doing and trying to make a little bit of money mining.

You think people are spending THOUSANDS of dollars on their mining rigs for the sake of "keeping the system running"...?

bumping - updated original post with more information on my proposed mining rig and information I will provide to lender for identification purposes.

Also, if anyone can suggest a better mining rig for $1,200 or less (since I am asking for 100 BTC loan) that doesn't involve ASIC's which have been neither seen nor proven, please let me know...

Mining is not at all a form of gainful employment. In fact it is all too likely to become just another black hole to throw money into.

It is a zero sum game; everyone is fighting for the few coins that will be minted, and others have you outnumbered and outgunned.

You'd be better off buying yourself a good resume and interview-outfit and a bus pass so you can get to interviews and spend your time out there finding employment.

-MarkM-

No one is doing that anymore.  Rewards are going to halve in 2 months.  You won't make your investment back.

I am still looking for employment, my plan is to have the mining rig as a side source of income...

Ok, but I think mining LTC will still be profitable.

Consider some math here:

My current setup SUCKS out loud. I mine BTC at roughly 10 MH/s.

If I take that same setup and apply it to LTC mining my setup maxes out at about 20 KH/s (est. LTC/Day is roughly 9 LTC) which ALSO sucks out loud.

With my proposed setup I can mine BTC at right around 1 GH/s (a 100x increase in performance). Apply that same 100x performance to LTC/mining and I should be seeing somewhere around 2 MH/s for mining LTC at which point I could mine solo and expect to find a block every 5 - 6 hours or so which would be roughly 200-250 LTC per day which I can then sell the lot for just under 1 BTC.

At this rate I could expect to see roughly 21-25 BTC per month mining LTC which I would give 70% (roughly 15-18 BTC) to my lender and keep the rest for myself.

At this rate I could pay off the loan in about 6 - 7 months.

If this is true then bitcoin is doomed. As there would be no incentive to mine, keeping the network secure.

This issue has been thread-spammed to death.

People don't need incentive to mine, they just need a good reason to feel good about mining at a loss. See the Folding@home project. People fold because they feel its a worthwhile donation of hashpower.

Many people feel the same way about bitcoin.

If you have to ask... you can't afford it.

I used to fold for bit-tech.net magazine team. It was fun, tweaking, cooling etc, got my name in monthly magazine. Then the electric bill popped through my letterbox. Suddenly it wasn't fun anymore. I quickey stopped, as many do.

Can't say for bitcoin, but with with bit-tech magazine folding team, most folders live at home with parents, so electric costs are irrelevant.

Our electric prices here in UK have shot up into orbit last few years.

Patrick Harnett one of this sites more upstanding members and most successful ponzi operators runs a money lending business as a front for his confidence scam, he may lend you it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61262.0 although I hope you appreciate making an unsecured loan of $1200 to an unemployed stranger in a different country requires the lender to be mentally ill.

Crazy people's BTC spends just as well as anyone else's, LOL...

If he's willing to lend and give me a fair deal, I'll check it out. I know it's hard to trust giving a loan under said circumstances, but I'm willing to give out a lot of personal information and proof of identity to include my address and I know there are plenty of people on this forum who are willing to go to someone's front door to harass them and serve lawsuits on behalf of themselves and others.

I really don't know what else I can do to alleviate a lenders concern.

You might be lucky getting a loan, but as you say we are in difficult lending times at the moment. There's plenty of scammers about, and also another odd bunch that are under the illusion they are "helping the community"  by screaming ponzi every 5 minutes. In reality they are making things worse for everybody.  ??? Strange.

I dont know if LTC mining is really that profitable right now, but soon it will definitely not be. Why? At the latest when asics arrive and BTC reward halves, there will be 10s of 1000s of GPUs looking for some use, and guess what, if only 10% of them start mining LTCs, you can kiss your profitability goodbye.

If buying gpus to mine LTC were a good idea, people would do just that instead  of lending you the money to do it and profit of it.  But its not a good idea though, at this point its a terrible idea.

I'm going to try to explain it again because you seem to be missing what other have been saying: your business plan is seriously flawed and you will not be able to use this rig to mine 100 bitcoins. I just plugged your specifications into my personal calculator and (assuming .11c/kwh), it will take you 36 months at the present difficulty to mine your btc value back. Difficulty is certainly going up.

To a lender, the low profitability faced with likely lower profitability represents a large risk. The fact that you weren't able to work out these profitability issues on your own carries a risk.

Ok, so you say you are going to litecoins instead. Can you show any kind of calculations for profitability for this? I don't know a lot about litecoin, but I plugged the value for a 6950 from here (https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/wiki/Mining-hardware-comparison) into this (http://www.litecoinpool.org/calc?hashrate=398&difficulty=9.76438995) and got over 22 months to repay at the current litecoin difficulty and ltc/btc trade price. There is generally a feeling that GPU miners will pour over to litecoin once ASICs arrive. And if they don't then it's because the ltc/btc trade has crashed. More risk.

When you add into this the admission that you have no income, it makes this loan impossible to fund because it is impossible for you to repay it.

On a personal note, I understand the desperation that comes from being unemployed, but this is not the right path and if you were to try to do this, in all likelihood you will end up worse off.

Those people would argue it's far stranger the level of support the community lends to ponzi scheme operators! Even Danks bank who openly admits his interest is paid from new depositors gets customers!

@Chang Hum: Perhaps I didn't explain properly.

Look, I don't like the scams anymore than you. But the reality is that bitcoin and scams go hand in hand. And that's never going to change. Never! Whatever you, me, micon or his brainwashed followers say is gonna change that.

The bit I find odd is that people don't understand that, and keep fruitlessly banging the old "we are protecting bitcoin" very worn out drum.

I disagree and you say Micon and his brainwashed followers, the brainwashed people are the guys who believe in all the magical HYIPs! I think if more people banged on that drum less ponzi's could manifest. The thing I find odd about your argument, is it wouldn't be rational in other circumstances i.e. a man running round steeling old ladies handbags but here it's accepted and the people shouting thief are the odds ones!

look at Pirate how many old ladies handbags could you buy with $5 1/2m it's disgusting and I find it odd anyone with a reasonable mind isn't banging on the same drum.

People seem to be thinking that I'm looking to do this as my only source of income. As stated earlier I am going to continue looking for work and I plan for this to be a side source of income.

And when the ASIC's come out I'm sure I will have made enough in mining profit to be able to afford them if they are really worth buying, but I don't want to spend money on something right now that nobody has seen, used or REALLY knows anything about.

You want figures, I gave them to you above. If I was able to set this rig up today I could be mining roughly 20-25 BTC worth of light coins per month mining solo, which I would give 70% (15-18 BTC) to my lender until my loan is paid off with interest.

Keeping the rest of the BTC I earn, IF the ASIC's come out and IF they are determined to be worth buying, jalapenos are only $150 each, I can buy a couple at that point and set it up.

Also, I'm not too concerned about the ltc/btc market crashing, both are on an upward trend in USD value, if selling ltc for btc becomes less profitable, I can just start selling it directly for cash.

I have above average intelligence and with the right resources I am capable of just about anything, I'm positive I can find a way to make profit and maintain profitability as the market changes and when I am back to working it will be even less of a concern for me.

I'm not trying to defend anyone because I haven't been around long enough to know who's scamming or not, but I have to point out that just because you collect money from new depositors does not mean you are operating a Ponzi scheme. It is only a Ponzi scheme if the operator takes off with money in the end, otherwise if everyone is getting what they are supposed to be getting then he is just a middle man for a legitimate lending service.

That describes about 3.5 billion people in the world.

Your point...?

Hmmm, okay I see the problem with my math. I only did one card and it should have been 6. Ok, this does have a chance at paying it back. I stand corrected.

There is still lots of risk (namely GPU miners pouring over to litecoin when ASICs and reward half drops, plus ltc/btc exchange crash), but it seems like you are doing your ROIs right.

If and when the ASIC's do come out, I would be more than happy to invest my portion of the profits into getting some and BTC mining, but not until after they have been verified in the forums by the rest of the community...

You have maybe 2 months of profitable LTC mining ahead of you. Perhaps not even that, and its not like I would bet a penny on LTC on exchange rates over that period. I also think you forgot about electricity costs.

Look, Id consider lending you if I thought it was going to help you, but I fear its just going to cause trouble for both of us.

The difficulty level for LTC is still a LONG way from reaching the difficulty level that BTC is at, all the people mining BTC are upgrading to ASIC's so that they can continue to mine BTC, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem even when the ASIC's come out. Either way since I will be finding employment my mining rig won't be what makes or breaks me surviving and paying off the loan...

2 months of profitable mining at the numbers above is still 40 - 50 BTC those first two months, which 28 - 35 of those BTC will be returned to the lender putting a nice big dent in my loan debt. It also leaves me 12 - 22 BTC for myself which I can then turn around and order my first jalapeno, maybe even two because I believe it's safe to assume (and current BTC market trends will agree here) that the value of BTC will only increase as the difficulty to mine BTC increases and the rewards for doing so decrease.

I believe it is also safe to assume that LTC will follow the same trend as BTC and continue trending upward as it's difficulty level also increases.

Also, I haven't forgotten about electricity costs, they are just irrelevant to me since I don't pay a power bill...

LOL.  Each 5XGPU miner will add about $100/mo to your power bill.  Will the payer of the bill care if it goes up by $100/mo?  What will you do about the heat?

No, the payor will not care.

I have a room that I am specifically dedicating to my mining rigs, this room is air conditioned by central A/C and will be vented in a similar fashion to the venting system seen here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56305.0

I think you are very wrong on this. Here is what happens when just one bitcoin miner switches to litecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112540.0

He had around 0.05% of the bitcoin network and now he has 5% of litecoin. Imagine what will happen if just 10% of bitcoin miners switch to litecoin.

1000% of litecoin network?   500 coins per block?  wow!  :)

And when those miners make that move anyone mining LTC for less than 1 MH/s (which these low hashrate users make up about 70% - 90% of ANY given pool) is likely to move on to something else as LTC becomes less profitable which will balance the influx of large hashrates. Within a week or two I expect that the LTC network will stabilize and it will be like nothing ever happened.

If and when LTC becomes less profitable I will reinvest into the best mining tech available at that time and move my existing rig to mining BTC/NMC/PPC and/or whatever else is the most profitable choice for my setup at the time.

We can speculate all day on what we THINK will happen as the ASIC's come out and the difficulty rises and the BTC rewards are halved, but we can't know jack until it actually happens. What I do know is that market trends are in my favor and I am more than capable of turning a profit with access to the right equipment.

I don't think you get it.

When ASICs come out, and they will, your GPUs will be worthless. LTC mining won't be profitable, for the reasons you describe(switching to LTC when ASIC comes out). This is a zero some sum game and you will have competition from all those who choose to stick with GPUs when the ASIC bomb drops on them. You will not be profitable!

So the main question is "when will ASICs appear?". If they come out in the next month, you will have 15 btc to pay back a 100btc loan and have no income. repeat for 7 months. If you think they won't be out in 7 months then your loan might make sense. The consensus is that they will appear +/- 1 month from Jan 1st. I tend to agree. Regardless of the consensus view, the whole threat of ASICs is a wild card that brings a tremendous amount of risk with regards to GPU mining investments. If I were to loan you the money, i would want an unreasonable amount of interest(75%monthly) to cover this risk.

So keep going on about how you can make it work. Regardless of whether or not you can(you can't),  NO ONE IS GOING TO LOAN YOU BTC FOR THIS INVSTMENT!

Come back with a better plan and then you might get a loan.

Good luck with your job search.

So you are saying that the large amount of 1 MH/s miners departing will counteract the influx? Again, that fucking retarded. There are people with 20GH/s GPU mining rigs. The bitcoin network has far more hashpower than LTC and a switch over will still increase the total network hash of LTC even if all current LTC miners leave. 

Again, you're missing the point that when the LTC network gets flooded with BTC gpu miners it will cause an outflux of users with bandwidth under 1 MH/s which will re-stabilize the LTC network. Unless you think all those low hashers are going to stick around when there's "no profit to be made".

And again, if the LTC market does become less profitable then I will point my miners to BTC/PPC/NMC or whatever else has the potential for profit.

And AGAIN, 15 BTC is more than enough to buy my first ASIC, IF and WHEN they come out. IF and WHEN they come out, IF the community vouches that they are worthwhile, I WILL start buying them as I can afford them, but as it stands I'm not putting ANY faith into a technology that was supposed to have been released already and now might not even come out until January. And when January rolls around and they say, "well it's probably going to be March before they're ready" then we'll see just how stupid my plan was.

As it stands your arguments are not based in any kind of fact, only mere speculation and it's reading a LOT like someone who is either trolling me or someone who is trying to talk me into a ridiculously high interest rate for this loan. Either way, I don't give two shakes about what your opinion is, you have stated it, your point has been presented, considered and declared irrelevant so feel free to move along.

They're 20 GH/s BTC setups won't be 20 GH/s setups on the LTC network. Have you ever mined LTC? If so, you should know that you don't get anywhere NEAR the same hash rates as on the BTC network even using the same hardware and exact same miners.

Not trying to troll and i'm not trying to make you take out such a loan(which is why i said unreasonable).

With that said, if you going to say I have no facts, then I don't think you have many either. You've stated that all 1mh miners will leave if all the btc gpus are redirected there and somehow it will have close to the same amount of total power. Got a citation for that?

I don't have any more citation for my information than you do for yours. We are both, as I said earlier, merely speculating.

I know that. My point apparently wasn't very clear. The bitcoin network has far more GPUs than the LTC network. That means that if most of them shifted, even with all the current LTC miners leaving, the LTC network would still expand.

So i think my point is clear. A large GPU mining investment at this time is highly risky and not worth the limited return. Also, BFL has not missed a deadline on their ASICs, yet.

Only time will tell, but continue to speculate if you wish.

I read that ASIC's were supposed to ship in September or October, then that date was pushed back to +1/-1 month from January.

Either way, it's funny, because the mining hardware comparison wiki used to have an asic's section that described the claimed hashrates, prices and expected delivery dates of each asic. Now that section is gone...

The claimed date is still October, the general feeling is that its going to be January +1/-1 month. That section should never have been on the wiki. Also, please understand - ASICs are not a new process or anything. Nothing about what BFL is doing is revolutionary or unproven, other than that it's for bitcoin.

LOL!!! I was an FC in the Navy, fully trained and educated in AC/DC theory, AC/DC circuits, solid state electronics, digital logic circuits and more. I assure you, I know what an ASIC is and that they are FAR from being new technology.

I have and have crunched the numbers. You can get ~90% of your rate in mh/s so your 20gh/s BTC gets 18mh/s LTC in your example here at a cost of 10% extra on the power consumed, if you were under clocking your memory if not then the power consumed stays roughly the same.