Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin is NOT a currency!

In it's simplest form it is just payment rails. Stop thinking about is as currency and what is left to regulate?

If a merchant selling a pair of jeans for $250 accepts a 1 bitcoin and customer 2 weeks later asks for a refund with a value of a bitcoin going up to $300. Is he going to get 1 bitcoin back or a value of the jeans he bought? Naturally, the value, which means 3/4 of a bitcoin at the time of the refund. So, how does it make bitcoin a currency. ITS NOT!

What do you think?

Why he get a refund of the value , It should be 1 BTC and not the value on USD .
Let's say you loaned here 0.1 BTC , you will give back 0.1 BTC (unless interesst) no matter how the price is . and that's why for example Theymos left "VIP" rank for people who donate 50 BTC even with the price change over the years , because 50 BTC = 50 BTC .
So you can call it whatever you want , it wouldn't make any difference IMHO

So because different currencies have varying exchange rates with one another, they aren't currencies? Nonsense, all currencies do this with one another, bitcoin simply has more volatility because it's so knew, and most people haven't figured out how valuable it is yet.

Ok let's assume you get a bitcoin back. Which is now $300 all you have to do is sell it for $300 and pay 3/4 of for the pair of jeans. Which mean you made $50 on this transaction. How ridiculous is that?

No, it is a currency, but it's also a payment system. You can't have one without the other with bitcoin but that's what makes it special.

Hmm currency.

Is bitcoin a store of valuy? I guess not? The only intrinsic value it has is the ability to move value around. If you do not exchange value into bitcoin i.e. USD/BTC it would be worthless.

it is a medium of exchange, which does not make a currency. Blockchain is a payment rail and bitcoin is medium of exchange.

Or explain to me what makes it a currency?

Can you use bitcoin a month without looking at the value compared to dollar? A year?

With any real currency you can use it for years without even knowing how the value is compared to dollar. It doesent matter since both consumers and merchants operate in the same currency all the time.

You can store value in it. Even fiat currency fluctuates. If you store your fiat money in a bank it likely wont have the same purchasing power by the time you retire.


Wrong. You can buy plenty of things with it or just hold it as an investment. Is fiat money worthless if you don't spend it?


It's all of those things.


The fact that you can buy things with it and people accept it as payment for things, therefore a currency.

Bitcoin is can be commodity and can be a currency too, it's depends on you used it, you look at the value of btc to fiat exchange, and you see bitcoin as commodity which only can exchange to fiat only, you need see is widely, now a lot merchant or company accept bitcoin as payment processor, it's prove if bitcoin can be a currency.

Do you know what currency makes currency or funds for that case?

The fact that a merchant in a particular country has the legal obligation to accept it. That simple fact above all the rest makes it currency/funds. This means that a merchant in the US can not refuse to accept USD for a product or service. As to bitcoin no such obligation exists hence NOT A CURRENCY. May be a token of some sort but not a currency.

I believe that it is considered a currency. Just look at the definition of currency
Hmm.. It seems that they all pretty much agree that currency is used for exchange, also known as money. Now, by these defnitions, Bitcoin is a currency, it is a something in circulation in general use (use by many people) that is being used as a medium of exchange, also known as money. Except it is not used by a particular nation.

Bitcoin is a protocol... just like SMTP.

A bitcoin is a medium of exchange... just like USD.


No. It does not come naturally. It should depend on the contract between the buyer and seller. Just think about your example in terms of Zimbabwean dollar instead of USD and imagine the same incident happening at the time of Zimbabwean dollar crash.

BITCOIN it can be used like currency

And you can spend worldwide

In the future what do you think people will use for smart wallets? :o :o

All good gents!!! But you are confused. If you call tomatoes apples it won't make them apples.

Bitcoin is not a legal tender which is the primary function of currency or funds. As defined by Royal Mint:

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

So, bitcoin can only be considered legal tender in this case in the UK only after a court can accept it to settle court fees. Unlit then in the strict definition bitcoin is not a currency. However, it does not stop parties to agree between each other to accept it. But it does not make it currency/funds/legal tender.

For example apple pay, they do not pass currency between a iphone and a point of sale, they pass token and the settlement takes place on the background. With bitcoin it is exactly the same but settlement function is brought out to an exchange where a party can exchange bitcoin/token for legal tender.

quote from U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TREASURY website about legal tender question

"Legal Tender Status
 
I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."

No one demanded bitcoin to be a legal tender. Not even it needs to be a currency. It is a medium of exchange, whose accpetance is growing because of the inherent features it brings along. That's it. So, what is your point ?

Many important messages were not allowed through email when it first came out - had to go through the postal service.

Today the IRA in many countries extensively use email to communicate with tax payers. Etc etc.

Ok you buy jeans for 300 usd and the fed prints tons of money you return the jeans and get 300 usd but those 300 arent worth 300. Because of the printing the jeans now cost 400

I appreciate all of your efforts and constructive arguments. I wanted to start a debate and fuel a discussion that could help the community to view this revolutionary technology not through the prism of conventional terms such as currency or legal tender that actually shape many opinion now but to allow us to consider other ways that this technology can be understood.

I have touch upon this in my first post. If it is a tech and not a currency why are we talking so much about regulation? Compare bitcoin to Visa. Visa is not a regulated business.  Why should bitcoin be?

correct.

Until the retail shop declares its income in Dollars or Euros it will most likely pay you back the refund in that currency. So if you paid 300$ for a pair of jeans in Bitcoins, say 1 BTC, and X time later you want a refund by specifying that you want your asset back (BTC, which is different than the shops currency) then the retailer will convert the 300$ for you into 0.5 or 1.5 BTC, regardless. I would do it this way if I was a "normal" retailer as it is 1. fair for my shop, 2. my balance sheet is OK and 3. the customer got back his money in a form he wanted.

If you are a bitcoin based shop and you believe in BTC and in that 1BTC=1BTC no matter what, then you may pay back the original purchase amount BTC.

All this probably wouldn't matter too much for the customer if the Bitcoin price was relatively stable.

This OP sounds exactly like when I debated a user over whether Bitcoin is actually an unregulated lottery, months ago.
It is possible this OP is just arguing for argument sake.

FWIW, currently, BTC is a commodity or a property.
It has not reached currency ability or status.
Satoshi Nakamoto's original intention was to create a currency.
That is many years away.

Yes right now it does not resemble a stable currency. I see it currently as a paradigm shift in the history of wagering. It's almost exclusively used for gambling, and speculating on its own value. Never before has there been such a pure form of wagering in history. So forget about examples where you buy jeans! Instead you can short your shorts! You can buy some shorts (clothing that is) right before you think something will happen that will lower the price of a bitcoin, then wait and if it falls, return your shorts, and get the usd value of the shorts you shorted (in bitcoin) in return. Welcome to the future  :o

this is always what i say and concerns me.

bitcoin is not "YET" a currency, you can use it as a currency but it is still an investment with somewhat of a high risk.

this is why all the places that are accepting bitcoin, they immediately dump it for fiat instead. so as for your example if the price goes up to $300, you won't get a 1BTC refund instead you will get ~0.83BTC refund because the shop is dealing in fiat not bitcoin. they are just accepting bitcoin which is then converted into fiat.

also that is why you will always see the prices in USD and the equivalent in bitcoin, not a fixed bitcoin price.

you're saying this only because the price isn't stable like other currency, but the price need plenty of time and many people to be stable

if the price would have been stable you would say the same thing? i doubt


yeah it is a store of value unlike the fiat garbabe which have 100% infaltion, bitcoin is based on deflation which mean that its value will only grow at the end, how you can not consider this a store of value is beyond me

Deflation has negative consequences same as inflation. I agree that fiat world has intrinsic inflation caused by current monetary system where central bank levies an interest rate on all funds it lends to commercial banks and that what causes it. Hence the only way commercial bank can make money is by landing it further driving inflation. Bitcoin solves this but as the supply is limited you are right in long term it will cause deflationary pressure. In essence this means that a user/holder of bitcoin will be able to buy more with it at a later date if he/she holds on to it for longer as the value will go up. As in the examples of Japan. But this causes another problem, one of the key functions of money/currency is facilitate the exchange of goods and services and if bitcoin is not being used for that instead it is being kept as the value rises it's not performing it's main function as medium of exchange.

So as you can see these two features are interdependent and has direct impact on the value and volatility. At the moment I do not have answer, this is why I started this debate.

Thank you for joining. 

HMM BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY!!! AFTERALL IT A   GOOD SERVICE WE CAN CONVRRT IT INTO OTHER CURRENY WITH ANY SUCH PROBLEMS!!!

IF you can't convert it, would you use bitcoin?

You do not need to convert it. If everyone accepted it as payment, nobody would ever convert it to fiat.
The problem is, it's not accepted everywhere yet, so people convert it to fiat to use it to pay for things that are only accepted with fiat payment.
We have discussed this before. Anything can be a currency, if someone is willing to trade for it's perceived value. <Trading cards, marbles etc> The fact that it's not government regulated, does not take away from the fact that it can function as a currency of trade. ^hmmm^

i'm not really in agreement with the fact that deflation is bad because encourages people to hold only, and not to use their coins

the deflation can have place even if people use a system with a limited supply like bitcoin for their daily shopping, while many other join the party by buying more coins and thus making the price to rise in step by step, the intrinsic nature of its scarcity will feed its deflation, even more

the usage of those coins will not lead a dent on the deflationary nature of your enviroment, like in the case of bitcoin, it is entirely possible to have both, usage and deflation in the same system like it is bitcoin


i would if there were shopping like amazon that accept it

but the main reason(i've already said this in another thread but i want to repeat it, because many think that here we dump only for fiat and we don't care about bitcoin), for me, for not using bitcoin right now, it's related to its price, its value is beyond mediocre

why i should waste my coins now for buying, let's say a GPU for my gaming rig, when in the future i can buy 10 with the same amount?

besides the fact that i don't want to dump, i don't want also, to spend bitcoin until it has a very good market cap, in fact i'm only dumping for emergencies...

Mate you answered your own question. Why would you spend bitcoin if you antisipate the value to go up. In deflationary situation that is always be the case and if the market adobt your perseption there would be no maket. That confirms bitcoin not to be a valit currecny.

well not i have a target at which i can spend it, that's the differnce, i'm not waiting indefinitely, and i'm sure many other are waiting for their price, right now the price is abysmally low in comparison of what we can have in the future

That's the case. If you perceive will be constantly rising you will only spend just for what you absolutely need because you know if just wait a little while longer it would cost you less. This is deflation and in the medium to long term this is detrimental to the economy as it would inevitably constrict. So, if you follow this thought chain bitcoin is not good for economy from that point of view. But as a method of moving value around it is generally a good thing as it would reduce the costs money remittance. However, will also take away profits of companies that are currently but will also shift those to be spent somewhere else.

Anyone care to share more thoughts?

Of course it is not, it is the most advanced value certificate that human has ever created, all currencies are like from stone age when comparing with bitcoin

Bitcoin is not a Currency but it can work as if it was; it has the perfect design to turn it into a medium of exchange, making it the virtual Gold because of its scarcity! And by this, it means it is also a very good store of value.

However, it works pretty well as a currency since its extremely devisable and functional in terms of usability. Besides its completely decentralized which means that neither Banks nor governments can't control it!

EVERYTHING that is accepted in exchange of goods and services is a currency. The legitimacy of a currency is mostly it's network effect (how widely it is accept). Now, BTC is a new currency, and constantly growing, and it has special features that no other currency has, which makes it special, and objectively superior to all other currencies we've seen. But, dollar is still the king of network effect. In the future, we have to aim to get as much people involved in Bitcoin, it's the only way to go.

of course not!
but we can convert it to fiat so it is usable and also a good investment.

but in order to become a currency it needs to be accepted by services instead or as another payment method side by side of cash. and since bitcoin is in its early stages we can safely assume that it has the potential to reach that level of acceptance and stability.

In the US the IRS agrees with you while FINCEN does not.

Your point is that the value of bitcoin is potentially not very stable when compared to other currencies.  I agree, this is something that is holding it back.  However, as many have noted, this is easily addressed by merchants and users being reasonable.

It is definitely a currency but rather than everyone is using it as a payment system like the debit cards,credit cards or paypal as bitcoins is not accepted in each and every country so you cannot say it as a currency once it is accepted globally we can say it as a currency.

From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments against it not being a proper currency that i've heard (and trust me i've read TONS) im yet to see a single one that justifies such claim. Every single claims end up being a critique of how it lacks intrinsic value or how it lacks a proper marketcap to be less volatile, both already refuted.

Ok. Let me ask why do we want it to be a currency? Maybe you are looking for credibility? But if all the arguments or critique have already been refuted in your opinion why is bitcoin still only used for gambling and speculative trading and not as a currency? What's stopping it if it's such a panacea?

IF you can buy shit with it it s a currency. Why do we want it to be a currency? Because it's arguably the only fair and not corrupt one. Not sure where you get all that bitcoin is used for is trading or gambling either.

In my opinion, the only thing stopping it slowing it down and mass adoption, is making it easier for the mass to use.
We are in the right direction with hardware wallets and cards.
Once those become easier to use by anyone, then mass adoption will slowly take place.
And yes, it will be seen as and called a currency (by the mass) then.

that is true and if we can use it as a mode of payment for purchase then it is a currency and no doubt it is mainly used for gambling but that is least concerned. The only thing important for us is that we can buy basic stuffs and we can convert it into local currency.

To buy shit you do not need currency. You can buy shit with gold, a promissory note, or smokes if one is in jail. Bitcoin has some characteristics of currency in particular it's a medium of exchange. The only intinsinc value that it has is based on the fact that it is a pretty good medium of exchange but it would be nothing of there was nothing to exchange it for.

If we say that it is not a currency than regulators of this would let it be, if we continue on the path of enchuching onto the hegemony of USD they will shut it down. All they have to do is to say it's illegal and it would be game over for bitcoin.

I agree with you 100% bitcoin is not easy to use. But when it will become easy to use you would not know that you are using bitcoin. In one aspect it is destined to become sophisticated payment rails like MasterCard of Visa but hopefully cheaper.

Using smokes is bartering, not buying something. Gold isn't really a valid currency because it is not easily divisible. How do I buy a pack of smokes with a gold bullion? I can't. But wait, I can buy them with bitcoin. Why are you not making the same arguments against fiat?  Is that not a currency too?T he gov are not going to shut it down. They'll regulate it because they want to tax it and if people are using it a a currency - which they are - then they're not going to leave it alone so everyone can just have their money to launder or use without having to pay taxes on it. Bitcoin is a currency so stop posting rubbish or half-assedly trolling.

I could guarantee you that you would find more people how would accept a piece of gold before they would accept a bitcoin. Following your logic, gold is currency...

An it has nothing to do with trolling. It's a debate. Substantiate your argument and join in. 

And a lot more people would accept smoke since this is the most used "currency" in jails around the world.

Thanks for the argument :) So, until bitcoin reaches the same level of acceptance it's NOT a currency

Bitcoin is still not a currency. Not yet. It doesn't have the market cap, global adoption to back it up. The result is too much volatility. But we don't need to go to far with our thoughts. We just simply need to use bitcoin as an alternative payment system and let it sort out it's space in the world economy in time. Someday it will be the most influential currency world has ever see.

You need to learn to quote properly. You don't need to double post with massive walls of quotes each time but I've already substantiated it, but you haven't other than posting your incorrect opinion constantly so you need to substantiate yours or provide something more than hasn't been disproved time and time again. You're not going to change any ones opinion here but you can keep parroting it like it means something.


Could you guarantee me that? Show me this guarantee. I'm not saying gold can't be used as currency, for instance gold coins, but most people won't accept gold coins or bits of gold for things, but you can't make your piece of gold divisible to pay for a packet of cigarettes nor could you get your change back in gold. In fact, I'd say it far easier and quicker to buy cigs for bitcoins than it is gold, so regardless of you saying bitcoin isn't a currency over and over that's just your opinion, and one where you're wrong.


Oh, look, the troll has an alt account. So cigarettes are currency now but bitcoin isn't? Just because you keep repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, though maybe in your head it does.

Thanks for the opportunity  :)



You are confusing convenience with a definition of currency. Gold and later gold standard has been used for thousands of years as currency. As it is less divisible, yes, I agree it is not as convenient as for example bitcoin to make a small payment. But you argue that if it is convenient, divisible and more or less accepted unit of exchange than it is currency. In that case do you consider WebMoney as currency?



One in constructing an argument based on logical conclusions can chase the opponent's argument into absurd. You argued that if acceptance is one of the key characteristics of currency than cigarettes are wider accepted than bitcoin hence siggies are currency.

But currency is a lot more than a divisible, medium of exchange in order for it to be currency it has to be a legal tender and that was argued previously. You can call smonting currency but it does not make it currency in legal sense.

In my opinion bitcoin is closer to a unique token but if this token will be backed by gold will it be currency then? Or what needs to happen for it be recognized as currency. In the same what what needs to have happen for digitised gold or other conventional assets  to be recognized as a digital asset?

Are you asking, if a currency is defined as a currency, if it's backed by gold? Because none of the 600+ currencies in the world would fit that definition, if THAT was true.

The currency debate will go on and on.. if your definition of a currency is only linked to it's "legal" status from a government point of view.

Let me ask you this... If say 10 countries/governments  in the world, accept it as a legal tender, would you define it as a currency?

My definition and the Wiki definition of a currency differ in the sense that I accept a commodity as a currency, when it's widely accepted as a medium to exchange value.
{ a system of money in general use in a particular country. }

The Wiki version is based on fiat :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency 

I have to say Bitcoin is NOT ONLY a currency! It's more as a platform. But it still a currency :D
                                             
       

If one country accepts bitcoin as a legal tender it would be halfway to becoming currency. But I do not believe it will happen. As to the reason, same as Visa or MasterCard would not have either word bitcoin or it's logo on a card. It's a branding issue. Card schemes do not understand who or what is behind bitcoin so for them to put their cherished brand next to something they have no idea about is impossible. I would say it's the same with countries.  Most likely they will develop their own digital currencies. I know Bank of England has 3 man team looking into this and I'm sure others do the same. However, bitcoin can be seen as settlement mechanism between other government backed digital currencies. Time will show. But I'm having difficulty accepting bitcoin as a vanila currency in conventional terms.  

Well, that depends on in what currency the merchant denominated that jeans. If that was $250 but as an alternative payment method he/she accepted 1 BTC (at the then current $250 exchange rate) then he should refund $250 worth BTC. If he sold that Jeans for 1 BTC what was worth $250 in that time then he/she should give back 1 BTC even if it went up to $300 in the meantime.

Agreed.

Man is it that hard to understand? He would get the same value back. ALL currencies fluctuate, the thing is Bitcoin does it a ton more since it's new.
If you bought those jeans in gold, and gold fluctuated, it would be the same thing.

A currency is a currency if it's accepted for exchange of goods and services, that's all, the rest is mental masturbation.

"As defined"

So you're saying tomatoes are apples because they're defined as apples. 

"Legal tender" is just what the government calls it.  It has nothing to do with the inherent properties of the medium of exchange.

Another government's currency is not legal tender in the United States, but it is still currency.  Just as U.S. Dollars are not legal tender in other countries.  Unless they call them apples, like in Ecuador, which now uses U.S. Dollars as their legal tender.  And they banned Bitcoin, which doesn't stop it from being a currency. 

OP is right. Bitcoin is not a currency.

It is an online community with a communication mechanism (=the BTC software) that replaces some of the properties of a currency.

Fundamentally, because of it's "volatility", a BTC token does not cover the important function of a unit of account.

This is because its price / value depends only from the valuation the community members give its tokens. If the community feels the BTC token is overvalued, they may sell and BTC price may fall.

This wouldn't be a problem in a mostly "egalitarian" and "rational" community. But 1) not every community member has the same "voting power", as large speculators still dominate the market and can manipulate the price. 2) New bitcoin holders operate often in a pretty irrational manner, "buying high selling low".

Maybe in the future the unit of account function can be covered by BTC, maybe not.

I have seen in many portals, websites that bitcoin is named as a cryptocurrency.
But i have read also somewhere as a digital currency.
So it is just a currency

If he sells a pair of jeans for 1 bitcoin and when the customers ask for a refund due to product dissatisfaction, the customer will get back 1 bitcoin. Simple as that. How complicated could that be? the problem that arises here is the bitcoin to dollar mentality which has been engraved in our mind that whatever tangible item value has to be measured against fiat currency. If it is priced in btc then by all means it is measured in btc. You don't hear people paying for a pair of jeans in euro and when the dollar equivalent value goes up, he will ask for extra refund.

the complication arises when the shop owner wants to restock or pay taxes or pay rent, all of those are being done in fiat.
so lets assume 1BTC=$250 and the shop owner bought one pair of jeans for $250 and sells that pair to a customer for 1BTC.
after a week the bitcoin price goes up to $1000 and the customer wants refund of 1BTC then with your logic the shop keeper has to pay him $1000 as the matter of fact.

Perhaps we are looking at it wrong way:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle)

That's exactly the point. If someone doesn't like the volatility then he should not use it. Or in case of refunds he can offer to accept bitcoins only in form of fiat. So that the buyer sends his coins and the coin gets exchanged. He then has the right to get the fiat back. Miner providers did this already.

No one (as in most people) will not like the volatility, that's why pioneers cope with volatility. The average joes can't see beyond the price, and they will start accepting BTC when the volatility is way lower, but they will end up having to deal with it because sooner or later, even if we stay an entire year of a stable price, there will be huge pumps that keep making the price higher, since mathematically speaking is unavoidable as demand grows and halvings occur.

Then this is not much different than the persons who buy something in a store, then wear it over a weekend and give it back to get the price back. If the merchant held the bitcoins in the meanwhile then it's his choice. If he awaited the price to drop then he should have sold.

Then what is fiat to you? It does not have an intrinsic value too. It only has a value because people believe in the state being able to back this value. That's all. And people believing in other bitcoiners to back the value is true too. So no difference on that point.

If you are with your USD-Note somewhere in africa and no one around then your intrinsic value is not existing too. You can't eat or drink it. The only difference is that it might be harder to find someone who accepts Bitcoin than you will find someone to accept bitcoin. But the same is true to north korean money when you want to buy something with it in an african village.

Although it doesn't fit within what was traditionally defined as a currency, as in a physical object/note/coin, I think we all know that in some ways it is. It's just innovative and the powers that be are therefore having trouble defining it. As you said, if it can be exchanged for something, it's currency. But it avoids the definition of currency by not exactly existing as anything really. That's the beauty of it.

Coinbase quote on Bitcoins possible VAT exemption because it's not a currency:
http://www.coindesk.com/european-court-of-justice-official-proposes-bitcoin-vat-exemption/ (http://www.coindesk.com/european-court-of-justice-official-proposes-bitcoin-vat-exemption/)

'Bitcoin operations should be exempt from Value Added Tax (VAT), the Advocate General of the European Court of Justice said in an opinion document published today.

Citing existing exemptions for currency and money transactions in Europe’s VAT Directive, Advocate General Juliane Kokott urged the court to opt against applying a tax to bitcoin purchases and sales. She further argued that bitcoin, while not legal tender, is still a form of money.'

Even they are confused... 'not legal tender, but is a form of money'

I think quite possibly this legal ambiguity was deliberate in the design by Nakamoto for just this kind of reason.

As to the US, their constitution allows them to mint their own coin. It's up there with the right to bear arms, only not as well known for some reason. The US government would have a nightmare actually trying to ban it I would imagine.

Bitcoin goes beyond the traditional definition of currency.

Its a bit like PayPal, where you can transmit a set monetary value across the internet from one recipient to another. It is an encrypted blockchain system that transmits net worth, so technically not a currency, in the legal tender aspect sense of the word. But at the same time it does have value like a commodity, like gold with its value set by an exchange rate.

Maybe we need to redefine currency instead of debating whether bitcoin is a currency.

Do you think EURO is a currency? Because if you buy something in USD with euro and change them to usd because the company only accept the green bill, then when you ask for refund, you will only get the usd value, even if  EUro went up to 1.3 when it was 1.1 when you bought...


If you want to know if bitcoin is a currency you must start with the simplest definition of what is a currency in your mind.
here is mine:
A currency is an abstract mean of exchange.

Abstract in the way that it is not really usable as is. in other words something that has more value to you (and others?) than it's intrinsic value.
Mean of exchange mean that it is actually use to be exchanged against other things

So with my definition USD, EURO and bitcoins fits.
Gold& silver would fit if it was used. In the old time it would fit, but nowadays i do not see it being used to buy anything but cash...

Guess you don't know this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1087938

Fiat is only more stable in most cases and since everyone is using the same currency it doesn't matter so much what it's price is compared to other currencies. It's the same with bitcoin. For example the signature campaigns doesn't adjust their rates all day after the price bitcoin has in fiat.

Only because bitcoin isn't used so widely doesn't mean that it is no currency. And surely you doesn't want to hold the "real currency" Zimbabwean Dollar. :P

The sig campaigns thus far seem to be behaving decently, even tho make no mistake.. as soon as the price goes above 300+ and stays there they will come up with some excuses to pay less per post. I don't think they will keep the current rates (which are pretty low in most campaigns) even if BTC goes 500+. So yeah.. they are looking at fiat to set their rates.

What do you say? US merchants are forced to accept US-Dollar? So when someone has an US bitcoin shop and only wants payments in bitcoins then you claim he can be forced to accept us-dollar? Oo Never heard of that.

Regardless of that... ever tried to go to Christ and buy an expensive watch in the US with canadian money? It's still a currency but it does not have to be accepted the same way bitcoin has. Only because there is no state that enforce a main currency doesn't mean that all currencies that are not a states main currency are no currency at all anymore.

And? A currency doesn't have to be a legal tender in order to be a currency. I mean you surely wouldn't claim that canadian dollars are not a currency only because they aren't a legel tender in the US. :P

i really agree with you let it be that 1 btc is 1 btc whatever the price of btc is up or down because i think bitcoin is just a kind of payment system but it have a value

Yes bitcoin can be a commodity but no for currency. not all the thing that can be as a payment must be a currency..let say a cheque or travelers cheque can be a payment but it is not a currency but it have a value of money and same as bitcoin we can use it as a payment but it is not a currency but it have a value of money

As far as bitcoin is concerned, Bitcoin is just a payment system rather than saying it as a currency. We use bitcoins to make a payment whether it is online or in the shop it is just an mode of payment which is done by just one click. So it has a value but you cannot say it as a currency.

When you pay someone with bitcoins, what currency are you using to pay them? 

Payment systems like Paypal, Visa, traveler's checks, these payment systems all require a currency which exists outside of the payment system. 

So if Bitcoin is just a method to transmit money, where is the money?  What money are you transmitting? 

bitcoin is both!! the diference from fiat is there is no real form of it we pay with it,the same way as fiat,and it is much more volatil then others fiats...about value that is just crazy if bitcoin now worths 270 dollars and some jeans costs 270 i would pay it with my btc ,now lets suppose bitcoin reaches 540 dollars after 1 month i had my jeans already why should i receive any refund?i bought it 1 month ago, if it loose value should i pay the diference as well?

Main question what is a currency ?
is the coin that we can use to pay for something we wanna.

Bitcoin is just a ledger keeping track of IOU's basically.

Yeah and if you are getting some goods in exchange of bitcoins or you are making a payment using bitcoins then it has to be currency. As you can purchase only if you pay for it and if you can make purchases using bitcoins then I think it is a currency whether crypto or digital, but its a currency.

Yes this is a problem currently You don't look at the value of an item in Bitcoins, but in € or $ and you convert it to bitcoins. So what you said is true.

However, it is possible that eventually bitcoin becomes so stable that BTC can be used directly as a measure of value without converting. Just as an example, signature campaigns on this forum are paying a set fee in BTC without much regards to the variations in Bitcoin price. Hence I don't really care how much is 1 BTC worth, I get my coins. A larger scale of such adoption would allow to truly think of Bitcoin as a currency. Until that, it is -as you said- an exchange medium.

So we have to wait until people spend and receive bitcoins on their own value, without using a variable exchange rate in terms of another currency?  And when that happens, it will be a currency?

And you say people are already getting paid, on this forum, in bitcoins, at a set rate independent of any other currency?

And, as you said, there is no such thing as "converting" bitcoins into another currency.  When you spend bitcoins, you are spending bitcoins.  You are buying goods and services for money, and the only money you're giving is bitcoins.  So it must be a currency, since you can spend it like currency. 

I don't know when all this would happen, I doubt anyone does.

However, regarding the price set in Bitcoin. Another example is the Donator and VIP ranks on this forum. You need to donate 10 and 50 BTC to get this rank, independent of the BTC/USD price. So if 1 BTC=1 $, then you can get VIP with 50$ but if 1BTC=500$ then you need 25'000$. These prices were kept in Bitcoin and are not changed to reflect any fiat currency. This in some way also promotes that "50 BTC = 50BTC".

It happens every day.  Any time is when. 

currently bitcoin is backed up with fiat ,most of the things are reflected into usd or eur those two currencies make several people think before invest ,but the bitcoin earn and loose interest daily and we use those currencys to reflect it soo bitcoin is already an almost currency,only need mass adoption to become another currency

This is basically true.

BTC exists and its used as currency. Therefore it is a currency. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency.

Yeah if we are getting something in return by paying in bitcoins than it is a currency. We cannot say that it is a global currency as fiat. But for me its a currency as I can purchase online by using bitcoins. And yes when everyone starts accepting it, it will make a difference.

on the next years i guess we need more 5 years atleast to achieve all places and be and bitcoin becomes an option to buy ,on that time it would became global .

Yeah things will change in next 5 years for sure and we want it to happen as soon as possible. And yes it is a currency at present too as we are shopping with it,converting it to fiat that means it is a currency if you are getting a fiat in return.

well fiat isn't only one currency, comparing bitcoin to numerous fiat isn't fair, fiat is the worst thign as a global currency, you need to exchange every time you go abroad in a ntion that do not use what you have, the only true global currency will be bitcoin and nothing else

bitcoin is already a global currency for shopping online, we have with numerous services that can buy anything for you for bitcoin and numerous site that accept it directly, the problem only persist in phisical shops

It's a commodity when I hold ...and a coin when I spend
at least for me :)

I see where you come from but visa is way more regulated than bitcoins. The state can see into every transaction and it's owner can be requested. The current problems, most regulators have with bitcoins, are the anonymity and the insecurity of funds. I think visa doesn't pose these risks because there are rules.

I'm not so sure if i like bitcoin being regulated. I admit i lost much to scams though. Guess one has to see each suggestion that comes on the table.

I would give a name this kind of currency as the secondary (less important than the fiat currency (primary currency)) so it is a currency but like a secondhand :)

But the fact is secondhand currency is more valuable and effective as compared to the primary currency. Like if you are travelling abroad you cannot carry fiat after a certain extent, but bitcoin can, as no one would be aware as it is safe in your digital wallet and no one can access it.

By this analogy, you can carry as much cash as you want, provided they don't find it on you, just like Bitcoins ;D
More seriously, your Bitcoin wallet is more like a "personal bank without countries or borders", so its probably a different category than cash. (Cautiously saying...) like PayPal, where I don't doubt border controls ask how much you have on your PP account.

Well to exchange the money is the same i think like the bitcoin and like the fiat.
If you want cash then it is the same.
The good thing would be If Google would implement bitcoin as a payment method to Google Wallet :)

well bitcoin is global and will be everywhere soo you should just convert your btc when you change country since prices are diferent and they have a coin ,looks eurozone ,they made it work... one coin for several countries why cant bitcoin become the coin worlwide ?soo lets say i would pay 0,1btc buying a ball in europe at chine the same ball would cost just 0,02 btc thats what i mean,not a fiat to convert....

I like what andreas antonopoulous says when he is comfronted with the "bitcoin is not a currency" argument, he simply says: "I've been living on Bitcoin for 2 years, not using anything else but Bitcoin. No amount of PhDs and research will prove to me that Bitcoin isn't a currency."

of course it is.. how can you even say this?

Bitcoin is a store of wealth / currency / whatever you want to call it that one holds and which may increase in value over time.

Or decrease in value  ;)

If i would follow your argument then this would mean that a hyperinflating currency, like the zimbabwean dollar, is no currency too. I mean merchants would do good to only accept US-Dollar instead, or exchange their zimbabwean dollar to something more worthy instantly. Only then they can be sure that their money isn't worth half next day.

I would like to ask you to stop writing uppercase. It's considered shouting and so it's somewhat unfriendly since there is no reason you coming in here and shouting. :P

now the all time chart is saying that is increasing, so we have the right to think that the chance to increase is with us and not against, which mean above 50%

surely bitcoin is not only a currency now(people are investing more than using it it seems), and i'm waiting when bitcoin will not be measured with fiat to consider it a 100% currency

Bitcoin isn’t Currency, it’s Money

Most people don’t even realize that money and currency are not the same thing. Although, people tend to see the similarities between each other, most of the times, they completely forget its differences.

Currency was invented to replace Gold as an independent, natural medium of exchange and it has been maintained by governments.  Currency has no limited supply and governments have been using this key feature to take value out from thin air. On the other hand, money came before currency. By definition, currency is inflationary and tends to lose value. The difference between currency and money is important because the global economy is increasingly unstable under a process based on fiat induced debt.

Money and currency have similar properties:

·         Divisibility

·         Units of account

·         Medium of exchange

·         Durable

·         Fungible

·         Portable

Money and Currency have the same components other than one very important one. Money has the ability tostore value. All Fiat currencies do not store value. If they did then you would still be able to buy the same amount of things you could have bought in 1920 with $1 as you could today. And we all know that is not possible. But to show you the real difference, 1 ounce of gold or silver in 1920 can still purchase the same items today. Currency is everything money is, except a store of value over a long period. That is the difference between currency and money. Money is a stable store of value and maintains consistent purchasing power over time.

Fiat currencies are built on trust. In fact, currency isn’t backed by anything of intrinsic value, and governments tend to deflate the value of fiat currency in order to take out value by issuing more currency.

Despite the volatility, gold has been able to maintain its value for centuries while currency has been devaluating since its first appearance. In this sense, Gold is a much more effective way of storing value. Considering this analysis and the fact that Bitcoin is the “digital Gold”, we can say that both gold and bitcoin are real forms of money and a much better store of value than any fiat currency.

I use BTC as currency, and I use it as a store of value and a medium of exchange. You can tell people its not a currency all you want but it is used as a currency by many, and used not as a currency by many others.

I think bitcoin is still curency for now bitcoin is volatile but its gonna be awesome if someday there is a country or goverment that accepted bitcoin as full curency
and we could buy a jeans that worthed 0.5 Bitcoin and next month on the same jeans we still paid 0.5 Bitcoin i wish my dreams came true

Let's see, it is a medium of exchange and a store of wealth. So if it's not a currency then it's... a carrot I guess?

already part of the list of currencies for a long time , only because some do not sympathize with your concept does not make it any less or more than the outras.A crisis that is spreading among the countries , will only show that the bitcoin and the best way to avoid .... making losses if the currency of the inves investment banks and their attractive proposals of rentability , someone already thought the economy of a country of only bitcoins ? our coins do not have more value , have lost much to the constant crises and inflation over time.

Yeah it is a currency as we are getting the goods in exchange of bitcoins, so for me it is a currency, if it would not be a currency then how can we make purchases or get phone credits, it has a value and if it has a value than it has to be a currency.

Just as the value of the dollar is built on trusting the people who accept it. There's no core difference between a service for bitcoin and one for another currency.

the amount of bitcoin they pay you that also the amount you will refund..
where that idea came from bitcoin is another way of payment if they pay you in dollar refund it in dollar
if they pay you in bitcoin refund it in bitcoin in the exact amount and not in the price..

yeah ask the guy who receive 10k bitcoins for pizza for refund :D

You realize that you used double negation? You need to use either one or the other. The way you wrote it you say "From all of the anti-bitcoin arguments being a proper currency" and because of that i first awaited you think it is no currency too. :D

This is clearly a warped view on reality. Bitcoins are used for far more than that. Normal uses. And even when it would be used for gambling, who cares? It would be a currency mostly used for gambling then simply. :)

And only because of missing adoption a currency does not lose it's status as currency, don't you think?

Why do you keep saying that a currency has to have an intrinsic value? Don't you realize that no fiat money has an intrinsic value too? Fiat only has a value because a government backs the value, or the state as a whole. But there simply is no intrinsic value. Maybe you can burn it and create warmth but that's it already.

And bitcoin has value because trust in other bitcoiners. Not in a government.

Bitcoin is not like gold. Gold has an intrinsic value. Bitcoin is more like fiat. Fiat has no intrinsic value. Fiat and bitcoin only has value because of trusting that the value can be held up.

Huh? Since when is a currency only a currency when many accept it? Will you accept money form a country far away? Surely not. But it's still a currency. If you are in the country where the money is from then you might accept it. And when you are at a bitcoin conference then you surely will pay with bitcoins too.

Why do you invent reasons why bitcoin is not a currency?

Currency can take many forms, but cash specifically uses tokens. Bitcoin replaces physical tokens like metal coins and banknotes with digital tokens.

 The question is very simple. Can we buy something with bitcoin? Yes. Can we buy a Dell computer with bitcoin? Yes. Can we buy a windows operative system with bitcoin? Yes. Can we buy hundred of things with bitcoin? Yes. It is bitcoin accepted as a money by multiplies merchants? Yes. Is there that merchants are increasing or diminishing? It is increasing.

Whatever it will be the name that can take bitcoin it serve as a tool which substitute the money or the currency? The name that can take can be whatever you want. But the function it have is the function of the money and the currency.

That is true, if you can make purchases using bitcoins, then definitely it is a currency, we cannot say it as a major currency as of now, but yes even it is secondary currency it is benefiting us by paying for our necessities and we can pay it for the exchange of goods and even to convert it into our  local currency. So for me it is a currency.

You harp on the medium of exchange attribute of currency. Unfortunately, there are other attributes as well - unit of account and store of value. Bitcoin is not doing a very good job as store of value. That is why there is a debate here.

Everyone do this with all the money. Think of traders. They do such kind calculated arithmetic every moment of they day. That doesn't mean that the money that they work haven't value and are not money or currency. This fact you mentioned have nothing to do with the debate if bitcoin is currency or money or not.

I watched a talk with Andreas earlier today and he said if we can buy or exchange it for things then it is money and I agree with him. People have used many things throughout history as a currency and bitcoin is just the next step of that.

I think the important thing to realize is that bitcoin is both an asset and a currency. I hodl some for saving because I believe the value of each bitcoin will rise over time. But I also use it as a currency.

The member called Elwar here can answer this clearly as well as Andreas: They have been living on Bitcoin for a long while now. So yes, it is a currency, as long as it allows you to pay for all that's needed to live, how it cannot be? It's nonsense. So when you get told it isn't a currency point them to the guys living on it already.

How do you define money? In my opinion, everything which could be exchanged for other things is "money" in some way. So, from this definition, Bitcoin is already money.

bitcoin can be everything. gold 2.0 , a currency, investment, place where you store value. for each person bitcoin can be something different. no need to give it a certain name.

Bitcoin its a currency of course, but still a young currency and not widely used enough, so it makes a potentially good asset for now.

I believe bitcoin is currently treated as investment. So, it's an asset right now like people say it Gold 2.0 Bitcoin need this price speculation. Over time when price get sable after reaching some big big level, people will start spending it (not selling), then bitcoin would be a currency. So, I agree with this thread topic as of now but not after 5 years.

most people are involved in bitcoins see it as an investment, But If we don't spend them, they become worthless

isn't "not spending" the sole purpose of an investment? when you invest in an asset, you buy and hold it until the price rises or goes lower that your loss tolerance limit.
and since there aren't any place to spend them (at leas i don't have any place to spend them) bitcoin would stay as an investment for me.

I see Bitcoin as digital currency but it is at very early stage to be recognized as currency.It has achieved already much and after the period of evolution in near future will have full status of currency when just digital currencies will be used widely.

It is a currency, but due its volatility, most people will use it to invest and not to pay for goods with it.

I am quite certain Bitcoin is a currency, with your example that means nothing is a currency.  When you purchased the jeans with say USD, USD are worth a certain something everywhere else.  Say you return them in 2 weeks, well the certain value could have skyrocketed,gone way down and thus although you are getting the same amount of money back, you could be up or down depending on what happened to USD.

Well, if you pay the hundred dollars for jeans, and your currency goes up, you will get three hundred when you refund he jeans. Ur logic is weird :'|

Bitcoin is valuable as any other currency. Just like Dollars have value and usage now because we think they're worth that much.

To tell the truth for me is more store of value than currency or money. I am not using bitcoin at all. Not to buy something, not to trade, not to gamble. I am store it with the hope that its value will increased in time and I can earn much more when this value will be hundred time more.

But I think that bitcoin is money. As someone told above with it can be bought goods. Many merchants (including big producers like Microsoft, Dell, etc) give their products for bitcoin. In the modern world is not used clering so if those give their products when the people give bitcoin then bitcoin without doubt is money.

Putting it that way... it got me confused for a moment. But when you think of it, we only need to deconstruct your own post. If it wasn't a currency why the hell would the seller even accept bitcoin for that purchase?? Simply because bitcoin its currency as well as it is a payment system. So it's more as a commodity that has all the features to be a currency as well as a payment system. You could even think the same about gold!

If the volatility would be a criteria to make bitcoin NOT a currency then where is the threshold? Every currency is volatile. Some more some less. So making a threshold there would be fully arbitrary.

Bitcoin clearly is a currency.

I once discussed with someone who claimed currencies only are currencies when they are backed by a state. ::)