Bitcoin Forum

Use this thread to try wrapping your head around the pricing and trade of physical cryptos, as well as the insane behaviours of physical crypto collectors.

Other useful threads:
Casascius' original sale thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41892.0)
Chainsaw's Collectible Marketplace thread (includes historical trades) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214589.0)
justbtcme's Trade Thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762285.0)

Self-moderated so I can actually remove sale/auction posts (and shameless link plugging); everything else is safe.

I'll get things started:

I think that the Casascius market is back to normal these days after being slow for several months. Personally I only see the prices going up from here so best to grab them sooner than later.

Currently ANACS is having a sale on grading services ($30 off for orders of 10 coins) -> http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/Specials/CotM_Special.aspx


*Waits for this thread to get nuked*

Does anyone know why so many super high ANACs grades have suddenly arrived? There seems to be plenty when once upon a time there were none. 

I do think it's a little odd as well, but maybe people though that they should send their roll-fresh coins to ANACS, even though they didn't plan on doing so.

Be interesting to know if the amount of coins getting sent in has been higher during this time and maybe the law of averages are just at work here.

My guess is two things:

1) As more coins come through, each series develops its own reputations for grading.  Things that initially may have been seen as detrimental to grade - poor plating, poor die strike, nicks in certain areas - are now accepted as "common" to a series, and thus are not causing as much of a hit to the overall score

2) Graders are human and have their own opinions.  Typically coins will pass multiple graders with each their own notes.  At the end there may be more of a consensus for a higher grade than not, and they may choose to award the higher grades in general.

Oh, and finally, more recent higher grades will tend to make people with older coins re-look at them and re-submit them to chase a higher grade.  Win-win for the grading company, more business, more profit.

Remember folks, it's a business at the end of the day.  Higher graded coins will spur higher prices, and higher market volume.  Everyone and their brother will then want their coins graded to try to get the best grade, and the best resale.

I'd say people either saved their best coins for last, Or- perhaps ANACS has gotten more comfortable grading Casascius coins and finally feel like they can make a better distinction between what's an MS-65 Cas and what constitutes an MS-69 grade.

Either way, this recent rash of high grades is going to make the market do a flip. And I agree with Blazed and others- the market is getting Hot again!


*Waits for this thread to get moved to a completely irrelevant section with prejudice*

It is really strange, that so many high grades are coming in, I am thinking about resubmitting all my MS-67 Collection to see if they would fetch a better one...
BTW it all started with a MS-68 0.1 Silver I sold instead of grading... I still punch myself in the face when remembering that...

I agree with TheAnalogKid here. For instance the 2012 5BTC coins are known to have some weak strikes in some areas. Where before this might have led to weaker grades, MS-65 perhaps, now ANACS might recognize that the weak areas are universal to that Series and not count against it so much.

Either way though- I think a Population Report for all "tokens" graded by ANACS will really show what is out there, if and when ANACS ever releases one. Although I believe most of the people submitting these are no stranger to BitcoinTalk, there might be some people out there sitting on some MS-69s and we don't know about it yet.

Nubbins, great thread idea and thanks for adding this summary above - it sums it up perfectly. I was more or less looking for acceptance of my "preferred" approach as a useful option rather than complete dismissal of it.

On to more relevant comments...regarding ANACS grades being high recently. This does seem to be the trend. But should we be surprised that so many Casascius coins have come back with such high grades? A lot of these coins have never left roles or have been in plastic cases from moments after they were created by Mike. I would expect a lot of these coins to be in high mint state, especially the silvers.

I'd love to see a pocket change worn AU 50 or something with some real patina, with hologram intact. And I'm sure there are bunch around in boxes some where from people who bought these "tokens" in 2011 and forgot about them.

The condition of these coins is different from the condition of circulated fiat coins, how will that turn the long term valuations on its head?

If one were to resubmit graded coins, is it better to leave them in the holders or would it be better to crack them out of the Anacs holders?  I wonder if graders would be swayed by seeing the existing grade, but they could always grade worse the second time.

It makes no sense to send an already slabbed coin to ANACs because there is a 99% chance you'll receive exactly the same one back. If it's already been assigned a grade by one of their experts, it's only going to look bad for them if they send it back with a higher number. I'm surprised anyone has gotten away with it, thought they'd keep a record of previous gradings.

Crack the slabs it is really easy to do without damaging the coins. All you need is a large flathead screw driver...I have cracked many slabs  8)

All coins are removed from their holders (slabs, 2x2's, airtites, whatever) before they get to the graders.  This prevents any bias from a lower grade, or from a competing company.

Slab cracking and resubmitting is very common.  And you'd be surprised how effective it can be. 

Agreed it has worked well for me in the past. I still am a firm believer in cracking the slabs before I submit though.

So just to confirm ...

Thats cracking crypto coin slabs (with uniquely identifiable addresses), and resubmitting them ? (so ANACS dont keep a record of the addresses they have graded ?)

If so, very much worth knowing. I have a few that I feel have been harshly judged

Man what a business model they have going...pay me $20-$25 and if you dont like the outcome...send me $20-$25 and I will do it again for you....im in the wrong business need to set up a coin grading service.  ;D

If you pay for verification service (which you should) then the first bits may get placed on the slab, in which case they would almost certainly have some kind of record of it when you send it in a second time.

The major risk of removing the coins from their slabs is that once you do this, you are loosing ANACS's guarantee that their grade is accurate. If you submit a coin as a crossover to ANACS and if they come back with a lower grade then you will be compensated for their original error. This means the worse case scenario that will happen when you resubmit a coin is that it gets the same grade, and a better case scenario is that it's grade gets bumped up one or two notches.

No clue if they keep track or not, but I know for a fact breaking slabs can get better grades. I have done this more times than once... :P

Correct.  You crack the slab on your own and resubmit the raw coin.

They may, or they may not.  I don't know what information ANACS keeps in their database, whether they'll record the firstbits or not.  But either way it doesn't matter.  Why does ANACS (or any of them) care if the coin was submitted 1 time or 100 times?  They'll grade it 100 times, and give you the same grade 100 times, or not.  They still get paid 100 times... :D

Also, while ANACS the company might keep a record, chances are the graders won't remember a particular coin or address unless it's particularly memorable (1BTC1234 for example).  Remember there's many graders, each coin sees usually at least 2, as many as 5, and they go through so many coins they won't remember seeing a coin again unless it's back the same or next day to the same exact grader.  A grader may see well over a hundred coins in a single day (at our coin service level), they usually take less than a minute for each coin then pass it onto the next grader for their input.  The graders keep notes only enough to make their grade scores, and verify the bits are correct.  The labels are done by a different department completely, who then enter whatever info is needed into the computer systems.

Figure this - suppose you had the coin graded, then you sell it.  The next person doesn't like slabs and cracks it out and puts it in an airtite or an album (don't laugh, this happens all the time with "regular" coins, there are people so anti-slab they'll crack them and "free them" from the "plastic jail" they are in).  Then he sells it to someone else, who wants it graded.  They send it in and it gets graded again, getting the same grade.  ANACS doesn't really know if it's the same person submitting the same coin or not (could be your local coin dealer doing it for you, etc), and again, probably doesn't care.

For anyone looking to keep the coin in their collection, I'd agree with you, it generally doesn't make much sense to crack and resubmit - just buy the higher grade in the first place.  That is, unless it's a really rare expensive coin which you can't afford the higher grade.  This is common - I've cracked coins when the difference in the next grade up is several hundred dollars, hoping I've judged it correctly and it will grade higher and I don't have to spend the difference.  Many people do.

But, anyone cracking a slab isn't really concerned about the guarantee.  They're purposely gambling to try to get that higher grade.  The guarantee is worthless to them at that point.  If they are sure it will grade better they'll do it and if it works out it's usually very rewarding when sold.

Me as well.  I've successfully cracked and resubmitted many coins.  One time turned a $300 coin into a $1500 coin after it came back a half grade higher.

I always crack myself and re-submit raw, and I recommend it to folks instead of sending it still in the slab.  However, it's extremely easy to damage a coin doing it yourself, so it takes practice - do it on a cheap ass coin first... :)  .  I've caught the coin on a jagged piece of the slab a few times, sometimes getting lucky and other times paying for it dearly.  Just gotta be patient and careful... :)

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info.  8)

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again. ;)

They ask for the coins in mylar flips and suggest plenty of extra packaging too.

If they're in flips I'll transfer them to a plastic 2x2 snaplock holder (lighthouse, BCT, etc), or if they're in an airtite already I'll leave it in there.

They say to put them in 2x2's, but I've never been comfortable with them, especially with proof coins.  The thought of rubbing in the flip during transit just cringes me out.

However, be noted that whatever you send them the coins in, you will never get back, so it's a loss.  Some folks submit in such bulk that they can't afford to do the airtites or plastic holders as it's too expensive, but for just a few coins I like the extra protection.

First, thanks nubbins for starting this discussion. It was sorely needed especially after mucking up one of Blazed's threads.

My opinion on sending coins in for grading... flips are fine and what the graders prefer. Just use new, clean, high quality, non-PVC flips (saflip is a solid choice). Plus plenty of rubber bands and excessive bubble wrap to keep everything super tight and safe in transit.

As far as re-grading coins goes, it works, sometimes. I've dealt with re-grading Cas coins thru ANACS as well as more traditional coins like Morgans and pre-33 gold coins thru NGC/PCGS and had mixed results. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower, sometimes consistent. Sometimes 3-4 grade point difference  :o. Following TheAnalogKids comment, I have also turned a hundred dollar coin into a thousand dollar coin simply by resubmitting it. And I've experienced the opposite direction. But as far as I can tell, all graders either do not keep track of previous submissions or simply do not care (they get their cut regardless).

Great thread and some interesting reading.

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. However ANACS does not take the condition of a hologram into consideration when grading a coin AFAIK.

Although if you are only looking at pictures of a coin, all aspects of a coins condition are really hard to ascertain and you really need to see a coin with your eyes to get a good idea as to its quality. The coin's grade is probably the best way to tell its quality because almost every seller is going to say that their coin is in pristine condition.

I have two redeemed 10B and one never holo'd 25b and 5b all get MS60.  So if the holo is clearly peeled or never applied by Mike C, the Cas coins seem to get a default MS60

Here's something you folks may find interesting. Some time ago, I designed a CoA for a new crypto coin being designed by the (in)famous Goat. The coin never got launched, but I did hand-silkscreen a few test copies of the CoA.

We went through a few revisions, this was the most current one when the plug got pulled. Green, black and gold ink on white 100% cotton rag.

https://i.imgur.com/hJ81MXN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ErZinK7.jpg

The empty circle was going to house a hologram sticker. Shame they never saw the light of day!

Very nice - about how long does it take to complete 1 CoA?

There's a lot of setup involved, so although the time per piece for a large run might be very small (a few minutes), that one proof took about three hours to produce :o

Nubbins, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Face+Value

I feel like ANACS is missing a big point of the value of these coins. The face value exists in the hologram (in the key), an unloaded coin or a blank has significantly less value than one that is loaded (literally). So if the hologram is tampered with, how can ANACS consider the value the same as a coin with an intact hologram (let alone one that's of mint state quality)?

I think this is going to lead me to buying ungraded coins so I'm not paying a premium for a moniker that doesn't evaluate all aspects of these very unique coins.

If the hologram has been tampered with then there would be a good chance that the coin would be damaged enough so that it would not receive any kind of a high grade. There are also certain security measures on the physical coins that make it evident that a coin's is tampered with to the naked eye so looking at a picture of a coin should allow you to tell if the hologram is intact or not.

I also don't believe that ANACS doesn't actually consider the value of the coin when grading it, they will consider the condition of the coin. It is the market that considers higher graded coins to be more valuable

I think they'd be opening themselves up to a nightmare if they started to consider the values of different iterations of coins. They're there to give you an opinion on the metal disk you send them and nothing more.

Thanks for the thoughts from you and QS. If the grading is only on the "metal disc" as you say, i'm surprised there's so much variance in the grades that come back...I realize they're using 8x magnification but there's really, really little on the metal of the coin (especially on the silvers) that indicate a difference in grade. The brass coins scuff and tarnish, but the silvers are pristine...every single one! The only difference I see are off center holograms or prefixes that are crooked.

No, there are differences between each coin, it all depends on how the die was polished, how much wear and tear it had, as well as how the coin has been handled.

... ???


Lots of factors at play. I have two 1btc silvers in my personal collection that have two teeny tiny milkspots on the BTC in the exact same location; none of the other coins in the roll have 'em.

Something as simple as a few particles of dust can change a strike; something as simple as carelessly dropping coins into a tube can mar the face of a coin.

From what I've seen, the upper right vertical in the BTC on the 1btc silvers is the most susceptible to an uneven strike.

Has anyone else noticed the die error in the 0.5 silvers? :D

Is it me or does sometimes it feel like we just keep passing around all of these coins to each other.  I for one am buying and stashing them away.  Whats everyones thoughts on the distribution of physicals?

Pretty darned warped I'd say, but Casascius ain't making any more and you would've had to have been slightly hard core to have bought some back in the day.

Those who invested then or now deserve to reap future rewards.

I used to think this around 1 year ago. I would have thought the earlier holders have all they want by now, less the odd special coin that comes along.
I think we were trying to get a collection like Goat, no?  :P

New collectors join the community once in a while, it normally align with jump in BTC exchange rate or some big public event. This is very good, because transaction and trade of goods is good for the bitcoin ecosystem. I also have a theory that most bitcoiner would like to have at least one Casascius coins, be because of the historical significance, but when they will buy "their coin" is more or less random.

I purchased several dozen Casascius coins in 2013 and have been slowly selling them since. I've purchased *maybe* five coins from other collectors since my initial spree, and four of them have either been resold or are currently on auction.

At one point I owned almost 60. Once my current auction is finished, I'll have 7 Casascius coins and 3 Kialara bars (one of each, natch) left in my collection.

I'd hoped to get a full collection of sub-10btc Casascius coins, all with PGP docs, but it's proven to be a fruitless endeavor so I've mostly given up on it.

Just wondering, why are you dumping all of them?

What else am I gonna do with 20 of the same coin  :P

Sit in your grand hall and covet them from across the room.

Heh. Somewhat related, here are the cases my 2013 silvers came in:

https://i.imgur.com/SZjxANnl.jpg

Since all of us are in some state of acquisition or liquidation of Casascius coins, we all are maintaining a BTC balance.

I'd love to get all of you to respond to a bitcoin wealth distribution poll I just set up in the main Bitcoin forum -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1133078.0

This poll has been done in the past, my new version overlays geographic region so we can see wealth distribution around the globe.

Please take a minute to share (anonymously) where you fit in the wealth distribution and may you all see good fortune come your way!

Thanks.

Just curious - how do you all think the market is for physical coins these days?  I still have a few left, but am unsure if this is a bad time to sell because I haven't been keeping up on it much.

Seems far more buoyant than it was a few months ago. Lots are changing hands and there are some hefty premiums popping up for the lower denominations.

*Talking about Casascius*

I have just recieved a new grading form from ANACS. They wont be publishing it on their website for a week or 2, but they have given me the green light to share here. Its been talked about for a little while, but it has finally happened.

Its a bit special, in that they are recognising the physical crypto coins as their own distinct category on the submission forms. Thats a real step forward in my eyes ... mainstream here we come  8)

I cant let it pass without restating what a shame it is that ANACS will give us our own section, but the forum wont. (Mods, please take note)

I have put a copy of the form on PDFy
https://pdf.yt/d/vA7tlh6CBIvV23PJ (https://pdf.yt/d/vA7tlh6CBIvV23PJ)
You can download, or print straight from there

The ANACS office manager has said
"They decided to go with the verbiage of “Physical Cryptocurrency” instead of “Private tokens and medals”, however these are the changes we discussed previously.  Max value of $100 per token. The only additional change is a max submission value for international orders of $5000.  Meaning the total value for the entire submission is capped at $5000 in insurance value."

Any discounted rates negotiated previously will also be honoured. But having a 'base rate' of $19 is also positive for submitting lower numbers of coins

Please feel free to use this, share this, and reference it in any other threads. Lets get this form out to those of us who do submit coins, return some of the faith that ANACS have placed in physical crypto.

It will be really interesting to see if given this change by ANACS, if any of the other big grading organisations take note, and reconsider their stance wrt cryptocoins

$19 per coin is more then what they had been charging their "normal" customers in the past. They were charging $14 (plus $7 for verification). Or does the $19 include verification?

Dont believe it will include verification. The price before depended on the value of the coin and also the speed of turnaround. Some will win, some will lose. If you have any volume, they will generally negotiate a discount

Guys, when pricing/valuing coins do you take the market exchange rate into account at time of trade? Or is it strictly btc amount?

I.e. As of now, the exchange rate is ~10% lower than a week ago - if an MS68 Cas coin sold for 4btc a week ago, all other things being equal, would another same MS68 coin be worth 4.4btc today, or still 4btc?

Opinions on exchange rate...

Casascius is mostly traded in bitcoin not dollar. Interesting enough is the price more or less constant in terms of bitcoins.
E.g. 1 BTC Silver cost 2.2-2.5 BTC now at 1 BTC = 265 USD, the price was the same 1 year ago when 1 BTC = 500 USD.

There is a trend; when bitcoin exchange goes up, then does the price of Casascius also go up a bit.
This is because, higher bitcoin prices attracts new bitcoiners - some of them will look to buy Casascius coins, thus increasing the demand.

Thanks for that...makes sense :)
Always interesting to follow the differing thoughts ... its similar to the arguments about taking a loan in btc and then price rises (as in the kingofsports saga).

I think that we need a section on the forum for the physical coins,  can we maKe a pool? Or a formal request?

Trying to get my head around, what happens to perceived value of Casascius coins if XT eventually gets its 75% miner adoption.
I guess Casascius coins will be the least, crypto has to worry about.  :-\ 

If it achieves its 75%, then that switches to the new core, and the coins are worth nothing less than they are today.  XT is a set of enhancements to core just like QT was/is. The blockchain continues, your coins stay the same, and life goes on. 

Now let's not derail this into a discussion about XT.  There's enough of that over in the "Discussion" sub forum.

I started a thread with a poll over in the Meta sub forum for that.  Can't find it at the moment where I am but if you go look there please feel free to bump it up and add to the discussion.  Maybe someday someone with mod power will take notice and create it for us. 

This was the thread for the poll

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1095046.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1095046.0)

More pollsters would be a good thing ....

Gross, no fuckin way. You'd have a thousand noobs clamoring for their own subsection just because they queefed out a bunch of stickered rounds.

the addition of the section would result in a beautiful  cleaning of the  market topics , making research more 'easy,the 80% of the ads in goods  regards physical bitcoin

How can one be sure the manufacturer didn't copy the private key and cashes in unused coins after some time?

You can't unless you were there to witness the destruction of all the keys and any media they were stored on.  This is where trustworthiness comes into play, and you have to believe and trust in those who made the coins that they did what they say they did.

Plus, having the private keys to millions of dollars worth of BTC in your possession is a great way to get kidnapped.

But still, I guarantee there's at least a couple of physical crypto vendors out there who have a copy of every private key they've ever generated.