Bitcoin Forum

be a hodler not a trader.  top reasons:

1. most traders lose money.  if you were a
good trader you'd be rich already.

2. why risk losing money trading when
you can hold and have a much higher
probability of making money on
strong fundamentals?

3. thin market = technical analysis
is less reliable, bigger spreads, and
more manipulation.

4. brokers and exchanges are unreliable (gox)

i am a bitcoin holder but i like to do some trading on the side in order to try and make some more bitcoin out of it.

be a BTC bitcoiner BTC:

hodl and spend/use some of it! this makes your HODL-coins even more valuable  :)

That depends. In both cases you are worried about earning fiat, not bitcoin, which goes against the idea of Bitcoin itself.

Furthermore, holding bitcoin expecting to get rich later is what happens among most bitcoin buyers and probably the HUGEST barrier to bitcoin growth and adoption. Bitcoin should be used as a currency, to buy and sell things. Sitting on huge amounts of bitcoin can be profitable in the long run dollar/euro/yen/general fiat wise, but it does not make Bitcoin work the way it should.

It is a coin, to be used for trading, not an antique artifact to hold until its value grows exponentially and you convert it back to conventional money.

And I'm not blaming anyone directly, I have this mentality myself and only used 5% of my bought bitcoin for shopping.

HODLER right here my friend, I've never sold any & never even attempted to trade. I'm a one trick pony, I've invested in bitcoin & I continue to accumulate, I'm HODLING everything long term.

If bitcoin succeeds big time I win. If it fails I lose. I'm ok with that though, that's what I've chosen to do, I have no interest in trading.

That doesn't have to have anything to do with fiat.
I also hope that Bitcoin get so widely adapted and the price goes so high, that I could buy various expensive things, with the Bitcoin I have. That doesn't mean, I want to convert them to fiat.

Also, there is nothing wrong with hodling, since there is nothing wrong with savings. I am not the kind of person that lives from salary to salary, I also had savings before Bitcoin. It is just, that now these savings are mostly Bitcoin instead of Euro in a bank account.
Spend Bitcoin, when it is convenient, which depends strongly on the country you are living in. There is no point in spending 100% of the Bitcoin you have.

Had I have simply gone with the hodl strategy I would have (currently) been down 65% on my investment from a fiat POV, but 1:1 on my BTC.

Having traded BTC I am now 600% my fiat investment or 17:1 on my BTC holdings when I first started.

That is owed to careful trading and a lot of luck.

You're spot on about most traders losing though.

Well you will become a trader anyway, cus eventually you are going to sell with a big chance you will buy again.

Supporting violence-backed national bloodscrip by holding it is unethical, that's reason enough for me to keep my wealth in bitcoin.

To endorse fiat is to endorse the violence upon which it is built.

i would say be an holder and a buyer, with this current price it's should be easy for many to buy a good portion of one bitcoin at least


i think he is going to hold until bitcoin can be used everywhere, without the need to dump for fiat

You definitely should trade bitcoin, but only if you can make a guaranteed profit without much risk, such as on a peer to peer marketplace.

Increasing your position is extremely important.

I'm am a bitcoin holder and I never have been faith in trade. I know that this is not something that i can be proud but iy is a fact. I never believed on the trade and in the ability to predict the price. Except a very limited cases when this is possible and that van be verified very rarely I think that all the other cases are speculation and as such must be treated.

It is up to each individual as to why they have bitcoin and what they want to do with it. If I can make a profit trading then that is my choice. Each to their own.

Yep, no sense in day-trading, I mean just hold out for maybe $1,000 again in a year or maybe two, meanwhile $20 and $50 bills are flying past your window everyday. :)

I would love to hodl but I end up spending/gambling them and I don't know if that's good or bad but it can't be bad because after I have spent them all I buy more immediately, like today I am almost out of bitcoins and the local guy I rely on to buy bitcoins from safely with cash is said to be away on holiday and I am trying to find an alternative.

No such thing.

And if you avoid death you will never die. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

i think we should trade bitcoin,
as we know that we cannot control the markets but we can control our bitcoin and our risk on each and every trade that we make,by managing our bitcoin correctly on every trade we can relax.
And theres one thing do not think about how much money you can make on a trade, think about how much money you can lose if your wrong!

But you can't tell people what to do with Bitcoin. It's normal that holders feel like they are wasting money by buying something mundane like doing groceries or a cup of coffee with BTC when you get no benefits by doing so, it feels like paying with gold.

In the future when goverment get rid of cash, then it will make more sense. Meanwhile im holding all of it.

I traded some LTC successfully :) but yeah, I was mainly lucky - and I trade on 1 per year basis max

And when all the coins will be mined in the future then no more new coins will come to life.
So it's value will keep on increasing.

I trade BTC only to buy them.
I don't want to use them for trading again. Too much time to study a market that then it reveals itself always crazy.

Better hold and keep them safe: that is already the biggest challenge around!

what if i'm a part of a group of whales or i'm very rich that i can manipulate the price? i think that it will be wise to do some trade in this case, in any other case i agree that is better to hold and forget, maybe buying when the price is settled for a long time like in this moiment

there is also the possibility to do trading with something else with bitcoin, like altcoin and forex, altcoin are very easdy to manipulate, big amount isn't necessary and forex does not suffer from big spread

Definitely a tempting idea, however there's always a bigger whale out there lurking in the depths.

altcoins are an even thiner market than bitcoin and so the problems I mentioned would be magnified.

As one of my friends non traders said, you are better off gambling. At least in gambling you have the odds before you make a move. In trading you know absolutely nothing!

I agree with most comments, trading can be profitable if you have the right data, know how to use it and are committed. If like most you are not, buy and hold is a safer and more profitable strategy. Just like every tradable investment!

SPEND BITCOIN !!!

But the absolutely key thing is that for bitcoin to really take off, we need to spend it!

I am guilty of wanting horde myself, but if we don't spend it then retailers stop accepting it, eco-system companies go under, investment dries up and bitcoin basically doesn't take off. It becomes gold for IT geeks without the inflationary, historical or physical 'doomsday' value. I'm all for gold investment, but bitcoins value doesn't lie here. Investing in bitcoin is gambling on greater adoption and anyone who wants it to go up in value needs to encourage the adoption.

BTC is still a little volatile, but getting better, so what I do is have one investment account and one spending account. I only use BTC to buy something when I can replenish that bitcoin at a fair price compared to the FIAT cost of the goods I'm buying. You buy the bitcoin and spend it quickly to minimise the currency risk.

What jammyjimbo says.

Please let me copy an earlier reply (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=949097.msg10393479#msg10393479) to a similar statement:


No, no, NO! As a strong bullish long-term Bitcoin believer, I completely disagree  >:(

Even if you consider your bitcoins as long term investment, rather than spending money - what do you think will help raising the value of your precious bitcoins more:

• 1. Hodling your bitcoins and spending USD, thus only stimulating the USD economy
  
  or
  
  

• 2. Spending your bitcoins, thus stimulating the BTC economy, and immediately buying back new bitcoins (on exchange or circle or whatever), thus increasing demand for Bitcoin on the market.

Notice that the end result is the same: you essentially purchased some stuff, lost some USD, and kept your BTC. But with option nr. 2, you're actively helping to raise the Bitcoin price level on two ends: Bitcoin economy AND market demand. I really don't understand why even the most fanatic Bitcoin owners don't seem to get this :-\

Especially if you're a Bitcoin fan, believer, enthusiast, investor, or hodler, SPEND THEM! (And immediately refill your stash of bitcoins by buying new ones with fiat)

By just sitting on your coins, instead of using them, Bitcoin won't grow! Spend them, and buy back at the same time.

Agreed but it depends on where you are.

I'm in the UK. It's seriously hard work finding anywhere to spend them here. On top of that there aren't any UK exchanges and although Coinbase is here it requires bank wires to the EU which takes days and costs. The instant buying services there are can often have a 10% premium. I spend where I can but it's not practical at the moment.

Trading bitcoin is important I guess.
Because we decide the products price in USD/EUR etc, then we trade them for bitcoins. It's important to have bitcoin/fiat exchanges. Otherwise how are gonna valuate bitcoins?

Well, one thing I know is if people stop selling (dumping) their bitcoins, the price at which we value them is most certainly going up.

most certainly? of course the price will go up once every person stops selling. people then will place higher buy orders hoping some one is willing to sell.

Hoarding is sooo boring though.. I do not feel part of the action, when I am not doing something with some of my coins. Take the leap and trade a small percentage of your coins. {Say 20%}

A friend of mine, bought some bitcoins, to experiment and "play" as he put it. He started with 1 BTC and traded his way up to 8.4 BTC within a year. The highest interest he could get from banks for that amount

was +/- 6% for that same period. Trading BTC is becoming an obsession with him now, and I constantly warn him to keep a little back, from the profits he makes as a trader.   

I don't agree!
You can hold it if you got good money else it's useless.
Not everyone can afford keeping 1000's of $$ invested and we never now if it will even go up or maybe down.

You can't possible compare trading revenues with bank account interest. Interest is what you receive passively, without doing jack shit. Trading however is work, and making profit requires investing lots and LOTS of time. As your obsessed friend can probably confirm :)

Here's a better comparison: what if he took a job or started freelancing, and received a reasonable hour rate for whatever his skill or profession is, and worked all the hours he invested in trading bitcoins that year. Do you think he would have made more than 8.4 BTC? ;)

I am successfully trading for nearly 2 years now and managed to increase my Bitcoin holdings quite a bit. If I didn't do any trading I would have about 80-90% less coins in my cold wallets.

OK, I agree with original suggestion in this thread, that is to risky to trade with BTC but I don't think that many BTC users have problem with it.
I think that most people here just collecting BTC with hope to sell it later for much better price and make good profit from it :)
Of course, this will not happen overnight and some users will probably lose patience and spend their bitcoins or cash out through exchangers.
For me this is a long-term game and right now I'm collecting some bitcoins for free, usually through signature campaigns, and keeping them in my wallet, with hope to earn very good profit from it later.
At least I didn't invest my own money here so I can relax and wait as long as necessary :)
I don't want to risk and loose my bitcoin through some risky trades but this is my thinking.

 

Ignore this noob. Hold your coins, spending is a tactical mistake in this game.

I can say that i'm agree and disagree. There is no a safe way to prevent any losing in bitcoin. If i trade today, maybe tomorrow i'll suffer great lose, but if i hold my bitcoin in my cold storage, when bitcoin price go down and never go up again, i will suffer great lose too :).

Amen man, you get it. When you use BTC , you also help your investment at the same time. Isnt that cool  :) ?

I usually convert bitcoin into local currency rather trade it into altcoin. But not all of them ofcourse.
I want to keep some of them as my investation


About bitcoin price , let the whale take care of it

That is a myth, sir, and I mean to slay it!

Wealth held in bitcoin represents wealth that was formerly held in fiat. Every satoshi - every cent - makes the network stronger and more valuable. We're growing a baby black hole here, the more mass we feed it the bigger the event horizon. In other words, HOLDING IS GOOD FOR BITCOIN AND DEADLY TO FIAT!

Please read:
https://medium.com/@agilemofo/why-you-should-care-about-bitcoin-1a812f8fa7cd
https://medium.com/@spc_bitcoin/accelerated-learning-for-bitcoin-ab461d4ee1b7
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any/
http://trilema.com/2013/things-that-matter-these-days-things-that-dont-matter-these-days/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

https://i.imgur.com/DjLAsir.jpg

Let the paper banknotes return to their intrinsic value while our hungry infant feasts on bankster wealth.

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/files/2015/02/joker-burning-money.gif

I was thinking of trading bit coins as everyone told me that i can earn more bit coins in trading.
But now i am clear that trading is losing.
Your reasons are appreciateable.

Well your friend is a very good trader! I hope that you are aware that many people are losing while trading. For every won trade out there somebody had to lose money on the other side, so trade only if you know what you are doing.

Gold words. Always better to hold the bitcoins you have for several reasons. I never believe in the analysis made by the traders about bitcoin. Because there is an asset that is iregulated and don't know rules in it's way of behavior. So very hard or impossible to predict its way of conduct.

Agreed. TA, drawing on BTC market 'history' and trying to analyse the actions of exchanges that are probably largely fictional and/or rigged is not going to get the results that a proper market might provide.

I think having a dabble with a tiny fraction of your holdings would still be an interesting experiment for everyone. Most would learn pretty rapidly that it wasn't for them.

It's not boring to me. I like knowing I've got a nest egg and it is fun watching them fluctuate and I think it's good to save. I can't wait to spend them but feel bitcoin has a long way to go before it reaches its potential so will keep on saving them until bitcoin is at a point where I can actually buy things I want.


Exactly. It's basic supply and demand. Take more coins out of circulation and the value goes up. Don't some diamond companies hoard lots of diamonds in an attempt to push the price up? I think this is the same.

I fully agree its important to spend coins.  Don't spend your stash.  Just spend small amounts and replenish them.
If everyone was a speculator and no one actually used Bitcoin for commerce, I don't think that would be good
for the fundamentals of the coin and would therefore hurt the coin.  It's a bit insane to say "yeah, Bitcoin worldwide adoption!"
and then also say "yeah but no one really needs to use it."

On the contrary, if everyone or almost everyone held their coins the value of bitcoin would skyrocket seeing as they were so rare. I think the best practice is to buy bitcoins back every time you spend them and choose to use bitcoin over over payment methods when available. Thus you get to hoard your stash but still help promote bitcoins usage as a currency too.

The same could be said about tulip bulbs.

Resources must be not only scarce but also valued.  The problem of "everyone just hold!"
is if that becomes the ONLY reason to hold, it is unsustainable.

5. you can store majority of your bitcoins offline on paper wallets, so there is no way how to "hack" you and stole them

6. you can sit and relax, you don't need to spend hours on web reading latest news or react in minutes with shaking hands

7. value of bitcoin growing over time, holders were, are, and will be the guys with the highest profits. no miners or traders, but holders. check last 5 years who won this battle..

Bitcoin is quite a bit different that tulip bulbs for numerous reasons. Using bulbs as a currency would obviously be a bit silly but that was just more of a wild investment that went sour and collapsed. Bitcoin is already a currency with a fixed supply whereas tulip bulbs wern't. Of course bitcoin could still colapse but tulip mania and bitcoin are two completely different models.

Exactly!  It's a CURRENCY. 

If you think Bitcoin can keep its value without being used as a currency, I think you're nuts.

-sigh-
Geez, why are some people so reluctant to see that HOLDING and SPENDING are not mutually exclusive  :-\

Again, please read my reply above (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1135546.msg11985169#msg11985169) and especially this part:

I really can't stress this enough: by spending bitcoins and buying them back at the same time, you are effectively still holding (since the number of coins you have stays the same). Except now you actively help Bitcoin grow as well. Win-Win! THIS is deadly to fiat!

Spot on. All hodlers: please think about this, next time you have the opportunity to put Bitcoin to practical use.

but you will lose on fees, if BTC really skyrockets may be a significant amount

The average exchange fee to buy BTC nowadays is what, 0.2% or something?

So for a measly +0.2% on your expenses (e.g. a € 10 pizza would now cost € 10.02), you can buy everything with BTC instead of fiat, without losing any bitcoins. If everybody does this, how much do you think it will help Bitcoin to actually skyrocket? How does that compare to the 0.2% extra costs?

Think about the bigger picture. If Bitcoin skyrockets, the fees you paid are totally and utterly insignificant.

Depends where you're at. Not all countries have exchanges. You might wait several days to get money on one and pay $30-50 to transfer it if you're abroad. Sometimes it's not possible at all from the more obscure countries.

1. Most people get greedy and/or get emotional to their investments, that doesn't mean you have to be one of them

2. Every move you make is a risk of some sort, and just like trading, hodling can cost you just the same.

3. Most people here can't make a decent TA anyways, bigger spreads mean more chance to cash in on those spreads, and manipulation can work in your favor if you
can recognise the direction it's heading.

4. Trading doesn't mean you have to keep your coins on exchange, you can just deposit them, make the trade and withdraw again. Because of avoiding to withdraw after
going to fiat, most traders want to go into other notable alts instead, but if you're not dealing with a lot of funds, this should not impact you as much.

I see the point you are trying to make, but i think that people should find whats fits them the most, because running away from a potential
risks is running away from potential profits as well. With well thought moves, and caution regarding security, trading can be quite profitable, but i agree that it's not for everyone.

cheers

This. The more money we extract from the evil fiat system the better. It only strengthens Bitcoin. It raises its marketcap, everything about ti is positive. There will always be other people that can afford or it just dont care about holding to spend some of it.

As has been explained numerous times: holding and spending are not mutually exclusive.

By spending + buying back the same amount of bitcoins, you are essentially holding (thus keeping money out of the evil fiat system) and helping the Bitcoin economy grow at the same time.

Indeed, the better way than holding is to trade and rebuy lower a larger quantity of it, and that also means that in time your profits increase largely if you reinvest all, but it's
also obvious that the risk increases as well, so it should be well thought out trades you do.
Furthermore, bitcoin was created to be spent also, so i don't see the reason why anyone would avoid that. Some people don't differentiate spending and dumping.

cheers

In part, I'll have to agree with you. But why should you hold all the cake when you can use part to make extra incomes?
Trading is a big risk, but there are some people making money from it.
IMO, you should never hold all the cake and try to diversify your portfolio!

Traders that are profitable will not stop trading because of my post.
Others who are passionate and/or greedy will not be dissuaded from
trying.

Still, many people who try it will get burned.  As someone suggested,
if you want to try, do it on a small scale.  But there are better things
to trade than Bitcoin if you want to trade.  IMO, Bitcoin is for hodling
(and spending)

Holding mostly, but I support the technology by making purchases monthly online, GOT TO SPREAD THE WORD!

- Jorge

1.  A lot of traders are making good money trading bitcoin and other crytpo

2. People should only risk what they can afford to lose

3.  This is crypto currency we are talking about, not regular stocks.  Volatility is what people hope for here. 

4.  Gox failed but there are still good exchanges out there.  Just don't use them to store your bitcoins.

Good topic, I have a question and a comment. If I've never traded before how do I know I'm not good at it yet, maybe I can still be "rich already" if I try some trading! And the people holding Bitcoin at Mt Gox were the ones who got fucked and left with nothing! The traders, the people transacting through probably did the best at dodging that bullet!

Full Disclosure: I'm a hodler. 

Holding helps keep the price high if demand remains the same or increases. Now when to hold em, that time is now!

Well if you can rebuy lower, obviously that's even better, but of course you can't do this without also introducing a risk that you have to rebuy higher.

Alternatively, I'd recommend people to simply put some fiat money that they'd otherwise have on their credit card or bank account, on an exchange instead. And whenever they spend some bitcoins (that they'd otherwise spend their fiat on), buy back the same amount of bitcoins immediately. This will cost approximately the same amount of fiat (give or take some 0.x% fee) that would otherwise have been spent, and this way you're guaranteed to keep your amount of bitcoins.

So this isn't trading per se, there is no risk or profit involved. Or in fact the profit comes from the Bitcoin price going in the long run, because your holding AND putting Bitcoin to good use (by actually paying with it) at the same time.

Exactly!

i am one of the holder because holding have given me profit in past then trading both options have their own risk if you can loss or win in trade then you can also win get profit or loss in holding but as this is obvious bitcoins price will rise its not gonna stay here we all know so holding is better for now a days

You don't know if you're not good at it necessarily.  Trading is always difficult for a number of reasons I won't go into, but the main one being that it's a zero sum game so you have to be better than most and you're going up against smart and experienced people.  But the only way to know If you can do it successfully or not is to try.  I am not against trading, in fact I dabble myself but not in Bitcoin...and it's WAY easier to make money in Bitcoin by holding it.

i tried trading bitcoin with USD and back for profit before but i couldn't totally get the hang of it and gain enough profit to make it worth my time.

that is why i prefer trading altcoins, although the risks are the same and markets are still unpredictable but i could make better money there in comparison with bitcoin - USD

I agree with you. I was trading alts, and I did have some success and made some money. When I tried trading bitcoin, I didn't have a clue on what I was doing and I was just loosing money.

I got a feeling that in bitcoin, there are much bigger fishes that are controlling the situation, that's why it's so unpredictable. In alts this is much less. Manipulation is not as big.

What the hell?

It's orders of magnitudes worse. However it is probably a lot more predictable. We know perfectly well that a handful of people will pump it and then shit on everyone else. You just need to hang on to their coattails and jump off at the right time.

Bitcoin's manipulation is no doubt just as real but far more complex and distributed. Being a Bitcoin holder makes things a bit trickier. Anyone who is holding an alt is either waiting to dump or needs their head examined.

Well this is the problem, I just don't have nerves to wait it or to sell it at the right time, I might be as well called too greedy.

And this is ok, I admit this loud an clear and I stay away from it. There are other ways to make money in Bitcoin besides trading.

You wouldn't catch me trading BTC either.

In a way alts are a lot easier to trade on an emotional level. We know perfectly well that the vast majority are there just to maximise profit with no thought for the future because most alts have no future, so you think nothing of going all in or out and never looking back.

I've given up on trading them as well though.

Yes trading is risky and there are many other ways to make money in bitcoins. If you want to make a quick money my suggestion would be go for gambling as you can make a good money in a single day, it is risky too, but if you have courage to loose then you should try gambling.

Advocating gambling instead of trading? That is staggeringly pisspoor advice.

Gambling sounds weird but there are many people who are addicted to gambling, but its not an great idea.

Trading also involves risk but the thing is that you have certain strategy in your mind while trading as you will aware when to trade and what would be the outcome.