Bitcoin Forum

So people on here and on reddit have been complaining about censorship of bitcoin-XT topics.

This is because the staff consider the bitcoin-XT currency to be an altcoin, which I agree with. Altcoin topics must go in the altcoin section on bitcointalk and I think they are trashed on /r/bitcoin. Because the Bitcoin-XT currency is an altcoin, if the staff were to allow bitcoin-XT in the other sections but not dogecoin or litecoin and the other altcoins, then that would really be censorship.

However I'd like to point out that bitcoin-XT currently uses the same network/currency as every other Bitcoin client right now. And while the developers of this client do have plans to switch to a new network/currency with a trigger in the code, at present bitcoin-XT is a Bitcoin client and not an altcoin client.

Therefore because bitcoin-XT is currently a Bitcoin client, shouldn't discussion of the client itself be allowed in the main sections?

if another Bitcoin client such as Electrum announced plans to drop support for Bitcoin in favor of Litecoin sometime in the future, would the staff immediately ban discussion of this client in the main sections, or would they allow it until it actually transitions to another currency?

This is why I think the guys who delisted bitcoin-XT from bitcoin.org were wrong in doing that, as it is currently a Bitcoin client. Any Bitcoin client could change to another currency if they wanted, just because the developers of this one plan to do that in the future doesn't make it an altcoin client right now, when it changes it will be an altcoin client.

Wait, if bitcoinXT is using the same network & currency than it is not (theoretically) an altcoin but like you said only another 'valid' client and this form of censorship is not really good.


I never expected a comportment like this by theymos and all the staff.

XT could possibly change the rules of the protocol without consensus and at the whim of the devs of XT. Bitcoin core does not allow this and will follow strict rules regarding what blocks will be accepted and which ones will not be.

Yes, right now (Auguest 14th 2015) Bitcoin-XT clients connect to Bitcoin Core clients and use the same currency as them.

The only difference is any miners running Bitcoin-XT add a message to blocks they are mining signifiying they are running XT. Once 75% of the block being mined have this message, then all Bitcoin-XT clients will STOP connecting to Bitcoin Core clients, they will only connect to other Bitcoin-XT nodes and they will use a currency that doesn't work with Bitcoin Core clients. When that happens then the Bitcoin-XT network/currency will be created. However right now Bitcoin-XT is a normal Bitcoin client, the Bitcoin-XT network/currency doesn't actually exist yet. While discussion XT currency is offtopic, I don't think discussion about the client itself is.

bitcoinXT can surely change the things, but here the problem is that there is a division of the bitcoin devolopers ... and each of one should inform himself and choose bitcoin Core or bitcoinXT. The censorship is never a good thing.

They are correct. Bitcoin XT is not altcoin yet, but will be when hardfork of bitcoin will inevitably occur as a result of larger block size accepted in future!

Exactly. So why censor it now? Right now I can download the Bitcoin-Xt client, import my wallet from Bitcoin Core and spend my coins at merchants that use Bitcoin Core. So obviously isn't an altcoin client right now, its a usable Bitcoin client just like any other. Doesn't make sense to censor it now becuase it will become an altcoin client in the future.

Just to note by they way that my opinion is that I am for larger blocks (or a abolition of a blocksize limit altogether). However I am totally against Bitcoin-XT and they way certain developers are trying to change the blocksize. People are being mislead into believing Bitcoin-XT is different from any other altcoin such as litecoin, it really isn't different. I also think that they should remove the "bitcoin" part from the name as this is a huge part of the confusion. Mark Karpeles used to own the trademark for the term "Bitcoin" in the US I believe, maybe he should have his lawyers look into the misuse of this trademark.

It seems that here the problem is another one, the 'money'.

They sensor it not because of the alt client but because of the alt coin! It makes perfect sense to me. Bitcoin XT is not Bitcoin!

I know it isn't. But I am talking about this Bitcoin client you can download called Bitcoin-XT. Not the currency that will exist when many people are running this client. Because as I said, it is a Bitcoin client right now taht works the same as any other. The fact that it may switch to another coin in the future does not matter IMO. Bitcoin-XT has been around for a long time, before the currency was ever planned. If it never achieves the 75% trigger, then it will likely stay a Bitcoin client forever and many people will likely still run it because it does have some other technical features that some people use for stuff.

Well the XT client is not being used for any altcoin right now. Currently it is broadcasting Bitcoin transactions and is being used with and on the Bitcoin network.

It does matter now, right?

You are wrong, bitcoin-xt MAY switch to another currency.

Bitcoin-XT will NOT switch to another currency if it does not hit its target of 75% of miners. Bitcoin-XT has been around for years, it is a Bitcoin client just like any others, it has some extra features not in Bitcoin Core and many people ran it for specific purposes. If it doesn't hit 75% then it will wont switch to another currency and continue to be used by many as a normal Bitcoin client.

But it will if it does! Besides, I don't see any obstacle in lowering that target to 70%, or 60%, or 51%... or even less?

Well that would almost certainly kill bitcoin-XT, (even 75% is stupidly risky, the very idea of forking this way is stupidly risky). but that figure is irrelevant. All that matters is that the currency that Bitcoin-XT uses right now is Bitcoin. Any client could change their currency at anytime if the developers of it decided, electrum, bitcoin core, armory. We don't know, maybe tomorrow electrum could switch to litecoin, who knows its certainly possible but highly unlikely. Much in the same way bitcoin-XT will switch if they hit 75%, its still a maybe it's highly possible they wont. You see what I'm saying? this is the actual censorship that is going on.

Stop saying its like Electrum decide to switch to Litecoin..... It makes you look stupid.

Because that just means Electrum switch user base/network. It does not fork the network its on right now thus split the user base of the current network.

See the difference?

I dont support censorship, but idiots like you who doesnt undertand and try to argue make them sound like they have a good reason for the censhorship.


My argument is simple, they say BitcoinXT is an altcoin because they assume there will be 2 bitcoin blockchains, well thats not gonna happen. They can argue that well forking will always defranchise a percentage of bitcoiners.... well so did every folk before this , soft fork or hard fork .

They're running out of argument because they dont like the fact hat this fork is NOT lead by Bitcoin core Devs. Simple as that.

No thats not why its an altcoin.

When bitcoin-Xt triggers and switches to another currency, the original bitcoin blockchain will exist with a hashrate of around 25% and everyone running bitcoin core will still be using it (assuming the devs of bitcoin core don't also decide to switch to XT, which is one scenario the devs of XT are hoping for). Not only that but it will still be  reasonably safe to use too for a peroid afterwards because as theymos mentioned in another post there are very little things that could attack 25% of the hashrate of the bitcoin network besides the bitcoin-Xt network.

I'm not going to argue with you because you are just a troll looking for a reaction and I actually knew you would post in this thread when I replied to you in that other thread. I'll just add you to my ignore list instead

No. All that matters is that Bitcoin XT is designed to fool ordinary users that they use bitcoin and switch to an altcoin as soon as enough people are fooled to use the Bitcoin XT client.

I agree, but I feel strongly about censorship and I think having a fair moderation policy is very important. We don't censor obvious scams around here. Being misleading isn't a good enough reason to put it in the altcoin section IMO. It's also very difficult to say it is misleading when it is a fully transparent open source project, it's only misleading to those not well informed.

LOL if its called Bitcoin 0.12 would that make you feel better?

The blocksize increase can be rolled out from bitcoin core dev and essentially fork the blockchain too? What happens to little guys that dont like it? Oh right... they just have to right?

We've done this before, dont spin this around this time.

Did you also ignore the fact that i pointed out your stupidity in your "analogy". It tells how much you understand the topic we're discussing.

Oh right, its simpler to call me a troll then. Gotta be hard to admit our stupidity sometimes, i understand.

Bitcoin XT is an altcoin project. This is why it is allowed to post only on the altcoin section. It is completely in line with the moderation policy so far. Why would want to be an exception?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1148654.0

Because bitcoin XT is not an altcoin project. It was released a long time ago - before the blocksize debate - by Mike Hearn in order to release some extra features he had trouble getting added to Bitcoin Core.

It was and still is used by many people for purposes other than changing the blocksize. It wasn't until later when the blocksize limit debate came around that Mike Hearn got the idea of using this client to change the blocksize limit.

It most definitely is a Bitcoin client right now, it's not fair to censor it. Maybe if we didn't censor it then people would understand the difference between bitcoin core and bitcoin XT better. I honestly think much less people would be running it if they had access to more information. Most of the people I talked to who are running it are doing so because they have been misinformed about things. Note that I'm tlaking about the client (software) here and not the currency itself. I would think that topics mainly about the currency go in altcoin, but a post by someone saying they switched their Bitcoin server from Bitcoin Core to XT should be allowed, at least until XT changes to another currency, if it ever does.

I know Mike. Poor devil. His ego is bigger than the universe.

So, if it is released by Mike it can't be an altcoin project and should be allowed to post everywhere on bitcointalk because nobody is willing to post on bitcoinxttalk. Any other arguments?

Are you serious? thats not what I said at all.  Read my other posts, I'm basically just repeating myself here. In fact I personally think that Mike Hearn is untrustworthy because I think he has an agenda, I strongly disagree with his opnion on a number of topics and it doesn't help that he has a colorful past. I don't think he is involved in Bitcoin for altruistic reasons.

I think that all clients that accept the Bitcoin currency should be allowed to be discussed on bitcointalk and that the staff should not arbitrarily decide which clients are allowed as that can cause censorship.

It should not matter if that client supports other currencies too, as some "multicoin" clients too and also some web wallets like coinbase that allow you to accept Bitcoin and US dollars.

I also think that it should not matter if the client plans to drop support for Bitcoin at a later date, when the time comes we can move threads to the altcoin section then.

I also think that topics that talk about clients that only accept other currencies are clearly offtopic and belong in altcoin/trash as appropriate.

Of course, it does matter. Bitcoin XT client will NOT allow you to accept both Bitcoin and Bitcoin XT currencies if they both exist.

You are misunderstanding me. That statement was not talking about XT at all. I of course know it will only use one or the other depending on how things go. I've made all my points I guess. I'm hoping theymos might see this thread and reply, I'd love to hear his answer.

In the (unlikely) event that XT ever does replace Bitcoin, then all major clients will not allow you to accept Bitcoin if both Bitcoin and XT exist.

In case you're the hidden owner of all major clients and you can speak on their behalf, let me tell you. The only major client that matters is Bitcoin Core. Get over it and forget about the Bitcoin XT altcoin.

Do you care to explain why the devs of clients would continue to have their clients remain compatible with a coin that (hypothetically) is not used?

I think whichever is superior will ultimately be adopted (assuming that XT coin ever comes into existence) and right now I believe that Bitcoin is superior, although it's max block size does need to increase. That doesn't mean that I won't change my mind in the future if something changes or if someone can make a strong enough argument.

I am not running XT right now and have no intention of doing so, although if a situation were to arrise that forced me to use it then I would be able to use it with my Bitcoin

Bitcoin XT altcoin will not be widely adopted and I also don't see why would devs of clients change their clients to be compatible with a new coin that (hypothetically) is not used!


The Bitcoin XT altcoin will come and die as many other altcoins because Mike and Gavin don't understand the difference between monetary system and payment system. They offer simplistic technical solution to pure economic problem. What they're trying to do has the potential of harming Bitcoin in a major way.

Right ... Mike is a devil

Blame him but not the economic majority that supports bitcoinXT....

As if Mike put a gun to their head and force them run bitcoin XT

Meanwhile, lets assume Mike is evil and censore all the bitcoin XT discussion. Call bitcoinXT supporters are only supporting altcoins and not bitcoin....

Stupid as stupid does...

you can't bait and switch me with xt.  try and trick me to use a client because you are currently using my blockchain then switch to your own blockchain and expect to keep me using the client.  anything that is scheduled to become an altcoin in the future is already an altcoin.  xt is not bitcoin.

using your logic then that means

the current bitcoin (core) is an altcoin as it is vastly different than the original bitcoin satoshi released in 2009.

 :P

Logic fail. LOL!

Therefore Bitcoin core is not Bitcoin right?  ;D ;D ;D

logical fallacy for him,  BitcoinXT is only another client with some more thing that Bitcoin Core doesn't have. Actually it uses the same network, and above all the same coin.

Nope, logic win:


LOL!

What Heam doesn't want you to know about XT:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h5heu/so_what_exactly_are_the_changes_in_bitcoinxt/


Good luck with your NACKcoin, full of buggy/shitty ideas Heam couldn't get through the rigorous BIP process!

LOL!

May, will, might, those are all keywords. The important bit is that they want to else it wouldn't exist in the first place.

This is Theymos's forum so he makes the rules (same as on /r/Bitcoin). People always seem to think the forum is some how democratic, but it is not. I disagree on moving XT into the alt section, but it does not matter...not our call. I think the way everyone is split is toxic to Bitcoin and only hurts it. Hiding the debate into the "shit coin" section here does not help either.

Nobody prevents you for making your own forum and call it bitcoinXTtalk.org.

Then can you freely discuss bitcoin XT and move all the threads about bitcoin into the altcoin section.

Untill then, please keep the talk about bitcoin XT outside the bitcointalk.org forum.
Thanks.

I can't understand why? if bitcoinXT is an alt ... then it is still possible to discuss about it here (bitcointalk.org). Sincerely BitcoinXT is like Fedoracoin during the Litcoin 'fork'.

XT is a shit coin and nobody is hiding it. The "debate" about the block size is just a cover up to conceal hidden agenda.

THIS!!  +1

Do you even read bro?

yes. But I do need to use glases when at the computer. My suggestion was more a respond to the part about:


I agree should have modified the quote or bolded out the parts I was refering to.

There was a thread moved some weeks ago and since i wasn't happy with that, because of the reasons pointed out in this thread, i asked theymos and he explained that he only told the moderators to move those threads ONCE bitcoin xt forked. But it should not happen now.

It seems he wrote that misunderstandable so some moderators misinterpreted it.

So i wonder if this was an error or if theymos changed his standing on that.