Bitcoin Forum

before i explain how, i want you to understand the difference between centralised and controlled.

centralised is where there is one main value indicator that everyone uses to make trading fair for both parties. in fiat terms the value "use to" represent gold value. which banks decided.

the banks decide value and governments control how we use it with laws and taxes.

luckily there is no 'control' but there is a centralised value for bitcoin

so back to the point. bitcoin is centralised but not controlled. i say this as the huge majority of people trading base the value of bitcoin on MTGox prices. so lets treat mtgox like the national reserve.. just without the gold inside.... lol

imagine a bitcoin world where people did not trade based on a FIAT value conversion but based on TIME. i said it in another thread but il say it here,

in medieval times a butcher would spend half an hour preparing a succulent beef steak, and would trade it for half an hour with a prostitute or for 2 flagons of ale.

in modern terms without thinking about the FIAT value imagine a days wage allowed you to go out in the evening to a bar, get so drunk you score with the ugliest woman you see and get a fast food meal at the end of the night.

again forgetting about fiat value. imagine we traded based on how many bitcoins we mine in one day being able to get that same evenings experience, or thinking that buying that gpu is worth 5 days of bitcoin labour.

reply with thoughts

I don't use MtGox price.  Nice try though.

it doesnt have to be mtgox, but i bet u use fiat as your indicator of value

i dont use U.S 'reserve' for my real world financial indicator.
im british.

my point being is ignore fiat as your tool for value. what would bitcoin be like if we just used time as value

So when I need to sell some for rent instead of doing [fiat rent]/[fiat price of BTC]=[number of BTC I need to sell] what calc should I do?

^this
I was just going to say something similar as FreeMoney, though a bit less eloquently.  I think that our perceived value of the fiat currency changes over time as we all have a general idea of what we can buy with it. It's just a handy basis of comparison.

eg my rent is 25% my real world income.

so if i paid using bitcoin id pay 25% of my bitcoin income.. id probably only get a shoe box of an apartment from my current earnings but if i wanted a luxury apartment id have to give myself a pay rise (get more rigs running)


understandable but imagine a world where fiat never existed to use as a comparison.. imagine the possibilities

wait you work for fiat?

not sure if i should take that as a comedical comment that i work for the car manufacturer Fiat.
or the fact that my real life job in medical industry continues and i have not yet took the leap into making crypto my full time job..

crypto can be done via PC anywhere, so why retire early limiting income. this is my retirement fund for a luxury life but being 29 im still to young to want to retire.. ask me again in 6 years.

Actually I'm just confused about what you want. I guess you earn fiat and think of it in terms of time and want us who earn bitcoins to do the same?

im not saying i want anything, never said i wanted bitcoin earners to do anything..

im just saying to imagine the possibilities - negatives and positives of if we treated bitcoin the way the guys in the medieval times traded before centralisation (the gold value/fiat value) came around.

im talking hypothetically imagine, and discuss. not take action lol so relax, no one can control how you do things, but talking is free..

imagine the possibilities or ramifications of never having fiat to compare to.

movie intime.. great movie, yes totally different world to the fiat world... but without the having to wait till ur 25 to get ur currency and no 1 years of free earnings when u turn 25 lol

Assuming there is still some market we'll just go see what valuable things we can get for a bitcoin. There is nothing special about fiat except that it is in wide use now.

seeing what you can get for a bitcoin, is still leaving others to dictate price. im talking about true self control.

'bartering'/negotiating

eg u go to a garage sale the person is selling things, they cant be bothered to price everything to its value elsewhere in the world so they just give it a fair value in their opinion to how much they want in their hand at the end of the day. you come along and see something you like. you dont just pay the displayed price like what most 'consumers' have been trained to do. you negotiate a price that satisfies both of you.
or

you see a luxurious apartment and u immediately want to move in and you believe its worth half your weekly earnings just for that luxury
or
for instance if someone said i will clean your house for 5 weeks. u wont think about minimum wage amounts ud think about how much peace of mind it will give u and how much more you can do with your day without having to clean, and ud base the price of their service on that as well as how qualified they are and how good of a job they do.


now thats true financial freedom without centralisation involvement.

Bitcoin would need to be a household term with the accompanying mindshare to do what you are asking. Its possible.

Still, I think bitcoin needs more people who think like you do. :)

Labor based value theory has been replaced by supply and demand since 20th century, and it has its reason. Now you do not need to look somewhere else except the market price of BTC

It will be controlled if we allow things like http://dedecentralizationofbitcoin.wordpress.com/ to happen.

Don't want to be a grammar nazi, but perhaps OP should learn to use capital letters, and less space between sentences.

And that reason is the industrial revolution, and the realization of the fact that human labor is relatively worthless in comparison to resources and capital.

http://s11.postimage.org/wdypftkz7/btcdt_month.png

I think I can see OP point. Measuring money with another money is kinda silly. So I track BTC purchase power instead. It is calculated as (BTCUSD*UAHUSD)/DieselPriceUAH. UAH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_hryvnia) being another sort of colored paper rectangles.

The law of supply and demand applies only in an ideal world of price setting;

In the real world trades are twisted by a thing called "bargaining power", the result of regulatory capture, accumulation of capital, cartels, etc..

thanks for the observations

7H15 M3553G3 53RV35 70 PR0V3 0UR M1ND5 C4N D0 W0ND3RFUL 7H1N65.

if u can understand the message above the punctuation or grammar are not the most important things the mind has to worry about.

if i was to be writing a legal document i would indeed use precise grammar and proper punctuation. but i am leaving this chat as a casual conversation.

I've had my bitcoins for months...

THAT MEANS I'M RICH!!!

I sell my bitcoins for $100 per BTC. My price is what I demand, and is Independent of the Mt.Gox price. I would not take a penny less.

That is a way to do it. MtGox price is nothing more than just an agreement. And you are free to agree to whatever you want. I think it will be the only way to trade bitcoin once we will step into faze "...then they fight you..." and all major exchanges will be shut down by governments.

I like it! So much that you can have "50c" for free. ;)

ur still using USD as ur comparison.

what if u decided one day that buying a pizza was worth 3% of how much you mine in a week. paying your rent is worth 25%-50% of your weekly income depending on the quality of the place.

buying a car was worth between 3 months to 3 years worth of bitcoins depending on what car u liked.

which from the sellers point of view they would agree or set their prices based on how much they value their product based on bitcoin.

eg making a pizza takes 30 minutes add ingredients, profit ... theyd want an hour of mining time worth of coins. which based on them working a 40 hour a week shift, the'd want 2.5%

let the bartering begin.... u start at 2% knowing ull go up to 3% pizza guy starts at 3.5% knowing they will go down to 2.5%
(just an example, numbers are not set in stone and are just made up from my head)

I actually excluded USD from evaluation.

Okay, lets simplify by droping out my local currency and say BTC purchase power is BTCUSD/DieselGallonUSD. Now one may apply elementary math and discard USD out of it. So we get BTC/DieselGallon.

As for bartering one work time to another work time - that is something people in time bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_banking) do. Nice approach. May work well in critical conditions, like restoring after war or something when getting things done matter more than getting everyone rewarded proper.

Essentially currency is an adhoc to barter allowing for a common baseline.

I agree on this, we are so much endoctrined as the U$ or any fiat should be the reference... before year 193x, gold was often The reference.. just by looking in the history of the "gold smith", we can easily understand that all this reference value has been manipulted by few for centuries..

Unless MtGox cheat in some way.. the "supposed reference value of BTC" is'nt manipulated by few imho..

I beleive BTC, even in a such small cap, are'nt manipulated.. and their value will be representative when a majority of users will beleive that BTC are the reference..

That's why I prefer to think that I buy FIAT currency, instead of thinking that I sell BTC.  It's just a state of mind..

After all, the reality is'nt all about how the majority of the self perceive it ?

we are all free human on a little planet !


sorry for bad english !

But if you want people to take you seriously, proper spelling, grammar, capitalization and punctuation are important.  Otherwise you just look like a troll or tween trying to text.

It's one of the primary reasons I have never taken you seriously.  You write "u,", "ur" and "lol" and you can't take the time to communicate in a respectful manner, as such, you get exactly what you give: No respect.  Your message is loses most of it's impact.

hide behind not answering questions as ur reason to insult. dont blame it on u being a grammar nazi.. plus im not representing a product, business or asking for any funds, im just having a casual conversation so professionalism is not that important to me.
its just casual chat. by the way it was nice meeting u at london. even though i didnt tell u who i was.. strange how the professional person i faced is this same insulting and evading person we see on the forums..

serious question now ill even punctuate.

Has BFL begun testing ASICS, either in solo mode or on a pool. Or are they still at the production stage, as of today's date?

I rest my case.

PS - You probably wern't babbling like an idiot in London, thus I communicated with you as an adult.  You speak like a child on the forums, you get treated like one.

It sounds like the OP is suggesting to remove the most efficient price discovery mechanism from the market. That can't be a good thing, can it? Two people will end up paying different amounts of BTC for the same item or service.

:)