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Fragments of an early Koran found in a Birmingham library may rewrite Islamic history after carbon dating revealed they could be older than Mohammed.

Scientists at the University of Oxford had already revealed that the parchment was among the oldest known Koranic texts in the world, but now several historians say it could be so old that it pre-dates the Muslim prophet, thus contradicting traditional accounts of his life and radically altering “the edifice of Islamic tradition.”

The dating reveals the text to have been written between AD568 and 645, while the dates of Mohammed’s life are traditionally given as AD570 to 632. This means that at the very latest it was written before the first formal texts were supposed to have been collated, and at the earliest it was written before or shortly after Mohammed was born.

Some academics now say that the impact of the text could be comparable to finding a copy of the Gospels dating back to before the time of Christ.

Historian Tom Holland told the Sunday Times that evidence was now mounting that traditional accounts of Islam’s origins are wrong.

“It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged — and that in turn has implications for the historicity of Muhammad and the Companions [his followers],” he said.

Other very old Korans also seem to confirm that written texts were circulating before Mohammed’s death.

Needless to say, Muslim academics have disputed the claims. Mustafa Shah of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) said: “If anything, the manuscript has consolidated traditional accounts of the Koran’s origins.”

Meanwhile, Shady Hekmat Nasser from the University of Cambridge said: “We already know from our sources that the Koran was a closed text very early on in Islam, and these discoveries only attest to the accuracy of these sources.”

Dr Keith Small, a Koranic manuscript consultant at Oxford’s Bodleian Library, admits the carbon dating applies to the parchment, not the ink, while the calligraphy is characteristic of a later style.

Nevertheless, he believes the dates are probably correct and could raise serious questions for Islam.

“If the [carbon] dates apply to the parchment and the ink, and the dates across the entire range apply, then the Koran — or at least portions of it — pre-dates Muhammad, and moves back the years that an Arabic literary culture is in place well into the 500s.

“This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.

“This would radically alter the edifice of Islamic tradition and the history of the rise of Islam in late Near Eastern antiquity would have to be completely revised, somehow accounting for another book of scripture coming into existence 50 to 100 years before, and then also explaining how this was co-opted into what became the entity of Islam by around AD700.”


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/08/31/oldest-koran-destabilises-islamic-history-carbon-dating-says-it-pre-dates-mohammed/


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 8)

If this book is not a fake I predict a lot of people will try to destroy it... And by people I do not mean him....... (http://s9.postimg.org/bqtpwz6rj/1346862411.jpg)


 8)

I wonder what would have happened to the academics, had they made the discovery in the ISIS controlled part of Syria. Most probably, they would have been accused of blasphemy, and then stoned to death. I just hope that these researchers will be safe from any death threats and suicide attacks. However, I am worried, as England is the same country which has sent more than 1,000 recruits to the ISIS.

To this dispute all an atheist might do is comment...

"He who lives by moldy old books dies by moldy old books."

You mean to tell me that religion has been used by these political leaders to manipulate gullible people into doing what they want no matter how stupid it is? *GASP* Who would have thought it?! :D

Yeah, this is going to drive people apeshit if the book is actually real, I too hope they won't go after the researchers, but knowing Muslims they will.

Religions must not be subjected to discuss.People can believe into whatever they want.It can be a cow, Jesus, Mohommed or David.The only interesting for me is historical facts.If Koran was written before Mohammed, the history will be changed.On the otherhand the paper can be manufactured and kept till Koran can be written on it.Why?Because paper was a valuable and rare asset (not material) at that time.Paper can be manufactured long before Koran was written on it.The test to be applied to the ink will enlighten the facts.

Even if the ink itself proved to be earlier then Mohammed's birth, we must be respectful to the Muslims.That is what they believe and it does not disturb me unless they are fanatics threatening my safety and liberity.

I read that paper and it is super interesting. However the finding is not that it pre-dates Mohamed, rather that the the velum is from about the time of Mohamed and could even pre-date his life.
The problem is that you can't date the text as precisely as the velum. It could be that the velum was written on and then washed for reuse later on. This was not an uncommon practice when velum was super expensive. Many of the worlds ancient documents are being looked at again to reveal older books which have been written over.
Another possibility is that the teachings of Mohamed were written down right away during his lifetime. The dates do support this and it is considered the most likely scenario. This would also account for how closely the modern Koran and this one correlate. Before it was always assumed that the Koran was an oral tradition until the times of the Caliphates.
Lastly, the most intriguing idea is that Mohamed was working from an earlier, now lost, religious tradition. That would be big news and would cause historians to rethink the whole story of the founding of Islam. There is not a lot known about who desert tribes in Arabia were worshiping. They are thought to be animists and polytheists based on the stories of the Kaba. Prior to Islam the Kaba was a structure that contained a pantheon of local Gods and was a sort of no violence zone where people and Gods could meet. Perhaps elements of several of these religions were combined to accommodate their beliefs and bring in new followers?

That worked for Christianity throughout it's expansion. You worship a mother Goddess? No problem, here is holy mother Mary. Use to worshiping different Gods for various tasks? Meet the saints! There is one for any need you have.  It would be fascinating to find that happening in Islam as well. It would also help explain it's rapid adoption throughout the ancient world.

True regarding the paper and the ink. The voynish manuscript is a good example. If more than one koran, as old as this one, are discovered, then it will be proof.

http://phys.org/news/2011-02-experts-age.html

I think that such an important document should be thoroughly checked and analyzed by leading experts.
There have already been examples of recent religious books take over some elements of the old religious books.
Koran also took some stories from Bible and probably it is possible that Koran used some customs and traditions (even religious stories) of the area where Islam originated.
In this way, perhaps Muhammad wanted to find easier way to reach new followers.
This is potentially a very explosive material and should be left to experts to verify its authenticity, and not to allow religious and political leaders to take advantage of this discovery for their own purpose.

The Bible is 66 books tied together. The koran is one book. That is the truth of the koran. You cannot find any element found prior to this event. The angel gabriel would not have wasted its time and would have just told mohamed what books to read...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_first_revelation

So it is impossible to have a half written koran before the koran...

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?

There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

Was that koran found a true koran or not?

I bet that will be hard to answer. kinda like which of these is the true Bible?
https://www.bible.com/versions
And this is only a partial list that does not include my choice, an ancient Aramaic version.

Muhammad allegedly received parts of the Qur'an via the angel Gabriel, and there is one original in heaven, which was (allegedly) revealed perfectly intact. Nobody "found" the book laying around, it's not like mormonism where the book was found underneath a rock.

The bible differs from the Qur'an in many ways. The bible was written by people inspired by God, but the Qur'an is supposed to have been made by Allah himself, and sent down to Muhammad intact via the angel Gabriel.

Thus finding a koran, even an untrue koran, before the event of the angel gabriel is impossible...

Carefully with that radiocarbon dating. Carbon dating isn't really accurate. 40-50 years diversion can easily occur. This stuff wasn't found in a sealed tomb in some remote place, untouched for centuries, but in Birmingham where "old coal" been burnt for centuries in large quantities, so it might got contaminated.

Obviously the angel Gabriel may have been partying, sunning on the beach, and engaging in countless other fun activities for a century or two before getting around to doing the job he was sent down for.  You know he had a round trip ticket.  You just don't know the dates.

Then the carbon dating data would point to a period after 1815, not before the birth of mohamed, when, I believe, few american indians would be using coal for their iron horses...

Fanatics of nearly all religions kill the others since they do not accept their absolute true.There may be angels, devils etc or all of them may be made up.

Is it important if there is a logical evidence for Gabriel's existence? For me no.Carbon halving test, is it so accurate?It is accurate.If you study religion history, you will find out that prophet Abraham had established mono god religion thousand of years before Jesus, David and Mohammed.Again, there was a (prophet) Muslim lived in Yemen (Muslim is the source of word muslim).
The stories of all Jews,Christians and Mohemmedeans resemble.This is because there is only one fact or greed for many followers influencing other religions.Still the only important thing is respect.People belive in Qoran.If they believe, everybody must be respectful.On the otherhand if you are a historian, you can use any test or search every bit of clue to reach the absolute truth.

Yes. I am not taking a stand in favor of Islam here, I am just telling you guys what I know about the religion :)

... "According to Muslim tradition, the
Prophet Muhammad received the
revelations that form the Koran, the
scripture of Islam, between the years
610 and 632, the year of his death."[/blue]
Because radiocarbon dating creates a
range of possible ages, there is a
handful of other manuscripts in public
and private collections which overlap.
So this makes it impossible to say
that any is definitively the oldest.
But the latest possible date of the
Birmingham discovery - 645 - would
put it among the very oldest.
Prof Thomas says the dating of the
Birmingham folios would mean it was
quite possible that the person who
had written them would have been
alive at the time of the Prophet
Muhammad.
"The person who actually wrote it
could well have known the Prophet
Muhammad. He would have seen him
probably, he would maybe have heard
him preach. He may have known him
personally - and that really is quite a
thought to conjure with," he says.

Is it possible that the world is unclear on Mohammed's birth time period? It's possible this doesn't destabilise anything it just resets when Mohammed was alive to an earlier date than previously thought (which is a lot more plausible than presuming the Islam faith isn't genuine or something.)

By the way, did the fragments mention anything about how to stand up to those that kill in the name of Islam? That would be a bit of guidance that could be widely used right now. I have never seen an Islamic cleric or official formally condemn terrorism conducted in the name of Islam (and I fully admit I've not seen everything!)

Then you better watch this
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtgGDq7tbwk
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_SbMyy4dJNc
Sorry I am posting from mobile so its YouTube mobile version links

And also read this
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Muhammad (Arabic: محمد‎; c. 570 – 8 June 632

Sounds pretty accurate to me, more so than Jesus' birth. If the koran they found is within that time table then all is fine. If not then the angel gabriel gave the message to more than one mortal...

No, if it got contaminated with "old coal" like the smoke of black coal or anthracite (low C14) then it changes the C12/C14 ratio in favour of C12, therefore the carbon dating will show it older. If you burning "new coal" like logs, peat (C14 is still high) it will modify the ratio in favour of C14 so the dating will show it newer then it's real age.

Then those scientists did not know what they were doing and will be tarred and feathered soon...

All these factors are taken into account when testing a sample. With velum it may involve meticulous scrubbing of the sample and/or solvent baths. It's not my expertise, but my wife is a medieval historian who works with theses kinds of documents all the time. 

If you have time, and if she cares, it would be great to have a professional opinion from her right here. After she had time to go through as much as info as possible regarding this subject...

 :)

I figured it out.  The Big Guy In The Sky sent Gabriel down at the right time, but he decided to go visit his old buddy Angel that ran the Dark Side, and got thouroughly smashed on some pretty good crack. Stayed around down there for a while and lost track of time.  But see, down there time runs backward, that's how they get to experience hell fire over and over.  So that time ran backwards, and he was hitting some pretty good shit.

Hey, what's a hundred years or two? 

I will ask her about it. I'm curious also. However her expertise is in medieval music notation, so beyond the carbon dating of the vellum I don't know how much she can contribute. It would be nice to know someone who knows about the written script. Just as you can distinguish between a writer from the 1930's, they may be able to narrow down the date by the style of the writing.

It's not like reason and evidence matters when you talk about religions. So i doubt it will "destabilize" anything.

There are plenty of scientific proofs & evidences that dismiss the bible yet still 90% of western people are christians.

That's because those proofs and evidences do not "dismiss the bible."  They dismiss certain alleged miracles and such. 

The vast majority of Christians I know either actively do not believe in miracles or are highly skeptical about all or some of them.  They may, however, believe in "a Creator."  That's the ultimate "irrefutable hypothesis," which is why science cannot "refute it."

Rather unique among alleged religious miracles is the Koran's assertion that Mohammed "split the Moon."  Today we have imaged the lunar surface, the entire thing is available in the public domain.  The Moon was not split.

As you note, some people will believe even against proof and evidences, in miracles.   

... Still 90% won't react violently if scientists make fun of them, their holly book, their prophet or their belief. It is not so much about them believing if this particular koran is really older than mohamed, it is how believers, not christian believers that is, will react if non muslim scientists say it is so... Re read the thread again. Some are already afraid for the safety of those scientists.

I wonder why...

 ::)

The Quran is written in the VIII Century Al-Farahidi's Arabic, so it had to be "translated" or transcribed from its original form into it at some point.

Doesn't carbon dating have a margin of error that can spam decades? I wouldn't get that excited about this prediction to be honest but of course the media will have a field day with it. Just like the bible it probably have nothing to do with the people who they claim wrote it nor is it obviously an acurate text any way (much like the bible).

My impression from the Muslims posting here is that they are universally opposed to Isis, and take it very seriously.  I am certain their clerics have the same opinion.

Majority of them has the same opinion unfortunately only few who supports get all the media attention

True, and a lot of them are silent, and most of them consider hating Israel perfectly fine, usually along with the Great Satan.

They are not silent,they dont have proper platform to air their views.Israel is a geo-political issue for many muslims it has nothing to do with Islam

Sure.  And Arafat wasn't a Muslim.

Yes he was a Muslim just like Ariel Sharon was a Jewish

Hmm....Sharon was outspoken secular, but a soldier.

You have a point.

Cultures change over time, there was a time when germans were barbarian savages doing cruel things (i`m talking about ancient times).

And now they are well organized and respected businessman and innovators.

Things change, some things need more time, some thing need less time.

 ;D So Muhammed plageriazed? How come I am not suprised. This same religion preaches hate, violence, statutory rape, Jihad etc.

Get your facts straight.Perhaps you are not following the thread properly and posting after reading the title >:(

My facts are right. I read this news on another website. If true, then it implies that "Gabriel" did not give Muhammed the 1st copy of the Quran as is widely believed by muslims. It means Muhanmed lied .

That is not the tradition. Mohamed had a series of visions in which the Koran was reveled, but not in written form. Of course he was drawing on earlier beliefs. Just like the bible is comprised of material borrowed from other religions, the Koran included the Abrahamic stories.
If you knew religion then you would also know that Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc..., all have violent beliefs that allow for murder and rape. Once you understand that these are all just ideas of people and people are delusional, violent and horny; then it's easy to understand.

You read the news on BBC website link of which is given in my earlier post.

No your facts are not right.

He thought "a little voice in his head" was the angel Gabriel.

That's right. In reality he might have been having a epileptic seizure, or some other mystical experience brought on by natural causes, or he made it up? Belief in visions had a huge following in the era after Rome fell and before the renaissance.  

For example, from the 10th. century:  
And again I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, 'Cry out therefore, and write thus!'
-Hildegard of Bingen

http://www.umilta.net/hildegardwriting2.jpg

The "revelation" description about Muhammad shows it the guy had epileptic seizures which triggered paranoiac schizophrenia seizures.

[...]

Patients successfully treated with monthly Invega Sustenna for 4 months can then be treated with Invega Trinza. Invega Trinza is the first and only antipsychotic that can be administered just four times a year.

Because the risk of relapse of illness is higher when antipsychotic drugs are taken irregularly or discontinued, it is important that people with schizophrenia follow a treatment plan developed in collaboration with their doctors and with their families. The treatment plan will involve taking the prescribed medication in the correct amount and at the times recommended, attending follow-up appointments, and following other treatment recommendations.

People with schizophrenia often do not believe that they are ill or that they need treatment. Other possible things that may interfere with the treatment plan include side effects from medications, substance abuse, negative attitudes towards treatment from families and friends, or even unrealistic expectations. When present, these issues need to be acknowledged and addressed for the treatment to be successful.

http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/schizophrenia-medications?page=3

Hey, don't be so harsh on those ancient dullards.

After all, if we didn't have the Internet, books, TV, cable TV, satellite TV, movie theaters, Ipods, Ipads, Iphones, billboards LED, stuff coming at us from all directions all the time.......we'd probably be hearing voices and seeing visions too.....

yeah, and in a few years time our ways would be considered ancient, despite all our technology