Bitcoin Forum

i have heard many people saying that Butterfly Lab and the other manufactures who make ASIC's is a SCAM

and this could be true because there is no proof than even ASIC exist and no one has even has a picture of a ASIC

what you you all say about ASIC's?

If I had to bet on anyone delivering ASIC it would be BFL as they are way ahead of anyone else on delivering bitcoin consumer products.

They've got the most convincing photos and should have machine capacity for 900 units per day.

That should burn through pre-orders quickly, so I'm just gonna sit tight and wait for the thing to be in stock.

Joke of the week :)

BLF's own words..


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment)

This is really a joke...this smells really like an set you up with some cheap ass pics... no proof again
To simpel questions you still get maybe,s and don,t worries, wtf


well it is end of oktober thats a fact,
in 5 weeks its halving day thats is a fact to,
then a week later ASIC would be out (Dec. Avalon, BFL ect.) this is a fairytale..

.just believe whatever u want.. a SCAM no..but a very bad customer service promising to much crap hell YES...8)

But if it is a scam i,d be happy not pre-orderd any device untill they ar out there it,s all AIR to me.... :-\

There's no guarantee it's not going to be a scam,

just saying they have the most convincing story, $10m pre-orders (enough to fund an ASIC & equipment), so they seem most likely to get there first.

If they can knock out 900 units a day, there's no need to risk money on a pre-order, wait for it to be in stock, use paypal, if it don't arrive in 30 days put in a chargeback (you cannot chargeback pre-orders!).

Hope not  :-\

why can't any ASIC company even show a under development ASIC picture's

I'm not very familiar with ASIC's at all, and maybe for that exact reason I find them suspicious. Is it even physically possible with todays technology to do 4.5GH/s with only 5W power consumption?

Just wondering. I'm not mining.

What photos?

That's honestly the _least_ of my worries. The whole point of an ASIC is that it's designed exclusively with one task in mind, and when all is said and done it's a fairly "simple" task that simply needs to be done a shedload of times in parallel. With good design and technology, I don't see why that kind of power consumption would seem so low... we really can't compare to CPU and GPU power consumptions... those are both "generic" chips.


BFL may be a scam, everything is possible. I think there is a good 50% chance they actually are honest and will deliver. Whether that's enough to risk investing in them, and how much to invest, is up to you.

The assembly/factory
http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg (http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg)

The new oven they said they were buying being delivered
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75&d=1350188957 (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75&d=1350188957)

The design images
http://www.facebook.com/ButterflyLabs/photos_stream (http://www.facebook.com/ButterflyLabs/photos_stream)
http://codinginmysleep.com/first-look-at-bfls-asic-hardware/ (http://codinginmysleep.com/first-look-at-bfls-asic-hardware/)

They make stuff already and come all the way to London Bitcoin Conference 2012 to show their wares (That's BFL_Josh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6fuEKqGSsQ

This++
, i mean srsly, why bother with preorder and the risk that comes with it to just to mine a little earlier?? Its nonsense in my opinion.

Then this, thre is no reputation yet as i get it...

As buffet sayd about reputation:

or

Entirely possible, but somewhat uncertain.

The thing is, there are pictures of their BFL singles from several members in this forum, there is a video from the internals of a mini rig, and so on.
So that means that either if it were a scam, that they actually produced the singles and mini rigs and shipped them, or that plenty of people are in on it. One third option would be that the actual products do not in fact mine but only communicate the mining software option to a gpu farm somewhere.

Still, I don't really think it's that likely to be a scam, but that wouldn't make me wanna pre-order their products. Because I view it as almost certain that if they ship it will be late on schedule and wouldn't meet the specs.


The only thing certain is: I don't like how BFL operates. They advertised singles to be custom hardware and are said to have delivered FPGAs.  

Picture 1 shows off building FPGA rigs

Picture 2 shows off generic equipment that could be used to build anything like FPGAs for example

Pictureset 3 are not pictures but design renders. Badly done design renders.

Video 1 shows off Josh showing off a FPGA.

How are these photos of ASICs again, which would be kinda relevant in a thread about ASICS

I never said they were photos of ASICs,
you won't have photos of ASICs until they are built, will you,
I was talking "most convincing photos" of a business that could deliver ASICs.

Seeing as how they "deliver" in... what was it?... 10 days?... you'd kinda expect they'd at least have a mock up prototype to photograph by now. Hell, they could paint an Apple TV black, lay a Jalapeno on the "Jalapeno" and stick circuitry from a TV remote and some christmas lights inside and it would still be more convincing than what they have now.

I do know the point of ASIC's and why they will be better than current hardware. Here's a better way to put my words: "I'm not familiar with SHA256 and IC desing". Without knowing how exactly simple the operations are and which kind of circuit is needed, I doubt it is physically possible with todays technology to achieve the promised efficiency. Unless you know that it's possible, it should be kind of a big worry. If you do know, please share.

I hope the provided data is accurate. It's time to make the whole Bitcoin network more efficient. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you prototype an ASIC by building it as an FPGA first?(done) Then you find $millions in funding? (done)
Just saying BFL are more convincing on ASIC than their competition, what have they shown? Not even design images.
You risk little by waiting for it to come into stock, the pre-order will clear pretty fast if their 900 units a day quote on new equipment is true.

Selling a product, that will make you 10x the profit in 2 weeks, is a scam imho.




Compare google selling you their adwords licensing for $100,000 dollars a day royalties, but its making $500,000 a day profit.


Its bullshit.

You do understand the difficulty to generate bitcoins will rise and/or price per bitcoin will drop?
No extra coins will be mined, no extra profit will really be made, they just make graphics cards miners redundant by taking their share of the profit!

In a gold rush the people who get rich are the stores selling the mining equipment.

Yeah it "will" but it hasn't yet.


Right now that 30,000 rig will take 50 days to pay off.
Why the fuck would you sell something that will make you $30,000 in 50 days, and cut off your own profit? Say they're not being dicks, and they're making a decent margin, they're paying $20,000 for the rig that's $30,000 thats $10,000 profit.


OR you can hold on to them, and make $30,000 in 50 days. Then sell it, and now you have $40,000..
OR... you hold it for life, because you hold the key to the bank.

And it will become harder to get coins?
Yeah you're right, add a few days onto the top, 'when' it happens.



If they 'are' real, they're probably mining them, til the difficulty rises, because it will do 2 things
1. FUCKING BANK $$$$$$$$$$$
2. Force everyone to buy ASICS FASTER

I feel like I have to respond before something thinks what he wrote is true. The 30,000 rig will take much more than 50 days to payoff unless you are the only person in the world with the equipment. The difficulty changes every 2016 blocks, so within a few days of the first batch being received difficulty will rise by a factor of 4 (the maximum it can change, see the wiki article on "target") and will continue until it reaches steady state. your 50 days has now become 200 days a few days after receiving your rig, and will probably settle at somewhere around a year or more in the end.

Stating that BLF wont be "the only personcompany in the world to have them"?

Edit:

I'm just saying, why wouldn't a company use this, make a shit load of cash, forcing the blocks to be harder, in turn forcing people to buy their products?

Because you need to raise $millions to make ASICs so you got to sell something to raise the cash I guess.

There's also the problem that if you become the market, there is no market. When the Hunt Bros. cornered the silver market they found there was nobody to sell to, and the price plummeted. Max Keiser did the same thing when he was a trader, he cornered the market in Phillip Morris Options, then later found there was only one buyer who could set the price and lost $millions.

Asics will eventually be made so it's likely not a scam.  Even if the current preorders are scams, someone will make one.

Because you can make more money selling the equipment for a profit. And its riskier to mine than sell the equipment..

Yes. Don't get scammed.

If they're planning to have the capacity to pump out 900 units per day on a long-term basis, then everyone who buys one is going to be even more screwed than if it was a scam, though. Assuming their mixture of devices averages out to about 30 GH/s per unit, which seems like a reasonably conservative assumption, that means they have the capacity to turn out 27 TH/s of kit every day. That's nearly a petahash/s every month. It won't take long for the break-even point to reach years. Unfortunately most of the costs of ASIC design are non-recurring and BFL will want to make the most of their investment, so if they're rational they'll drop prices hugely once that happens - making the break-even point appear reasonable to new customers, but meaning older ones may never make their costs back at all.

Explain your logic, good sir? $30,000 in 50 days is more profit than $10-20,000 in 1 sale.

so, gpus were a scam when everyone was mining with cpus?

no GPU's where not a scam everyone had access to prove GPU mining is real?

but is there anyway to prove that ASIC's are for real?

\

come on gpu comes from an million dollar gaming industrie that are facts ...not air,

another fact is this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0

Lets all just mine on ,..in 6 weeks a lot wil be cleared out...Cheers

6 week's is a long time

if they turn out to be true everyone who did not preorder is losing the chance of mining with big hasrate at a low difficulty.

and if they turn out to be a scam everyone who did preorder ASIC will be in LOSS.

But it doesn't take 50 days to make and sell one. Say they make 1 a day, and sell it, that's $10,000 to $20,000 (to keep your estimated profit per piece) a day, so profit is in producing and selling fast, while people still see a roi in it.

i can wait and take some lose, but if it,s for real i jump the fuck in to maybe a little later there are years ahead of mining it is not a short distance race, and IF they deliver as promised u will get some advantage for taking the risk of an pre order but don,t count on it its freaking end of oktober still no signs.. nothing ...but i really hoop they don,t scam on my fello miners i really do ...

For the guy who wanted an actual photo of a real BFL ASIC  ;D

Single SC Prototype
http://bitcoinmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1-IMG_1562-602x537.jpg

Jalapeno Prototype
http://bitcoinmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Jalapeno-Prototype-980x1024.png

Source: http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/

this is not a working photo

is there a photo showing it connected to Cgminer or any ASIC miner

At least you can still use a shovel for other things, unlike an ASIC.

It's has dual purpose as a mug warmer, did you not hear?  ::)

I wonder why they sharpied out the BFL logo on the bottom picture?

Somewhat proves there is at least 2 out there lol

I guess they wanted to keep the owner secret. Some of the chips look like they have had sandpaper over them too to hide their details.  ;)

These are the prototypes. Top one is the Single SC, the bottom one is the Jalapeno.

Yup! the first pic still shows all the info on the ATMEL chip - but JUST can't make out the model :/

and the possible 2nd USB on the second pic where the barrel plug is on the 1st is interesting

I dont care that much about if it's a scam, spec not meet, or ROI (pay off) !  As long as I get a regular BTC income to my wallet, for personal use, I'll be happy to participate in securing this marvellous network !

just my personal opinion, not interesting for 99% of the reader, I know ;)

First open your directory to learn the definition of ASIC.

Then continue reading those threads about BFL.

Hint : If I had purchased a BFL ASIC I would be tempted to discourage others to do the same and if I had not I would be jealous and would not be willing to accept the truth.

The circuitry on the left side of the board looks like some 50W switching regulator. No way in hell this board will run from USB alone.

EDIT: Nevermind. This was the 60GH/s one. Very interesting !

what truth. ??? ??? ???.explane please.. i only need some facts ..

If you check the two picture you can easely see that the seposed jally board is excactly the board in the SC pic 90degree turned and fixed with some les parts mounted on the board just look at them for 5min compare and you see that i am right thats a fact it,s the same board only a day less worked on...they really suck .....

Err, but this is how it's supposed to be. The jally is a one (1) underclocked ASIC chip on the board, the little single is a board with 4 chips, the single has 8 chips and the minirig has multiple single boards.

What's the problem?

I think I see a difference on the side where the usb connectors are, minirig-board has a barrel type connector and a usb one, where the jalapeno prototype board has a (mini)-usb plus a usb one?

no way it easely bin made that way i m not here to troll BFL but this is again no evidence and it IS the same board even the letters are sandpapered off.. but just keep giving your money to this pithole .....

That's some amazing detective work to realize that the board was turned to the side. Besides the "quarter-turn" which clearly indicates it is a scam, do you have any further observations?

Say you can make 900 a day, that doesn't mean they're bought. Last time I checked they had like 33 pre-orders for the top end rigs.
Why would you accept $330,000 profit, when in 1 month, 33 rigs will bring in at current rate $575,784 monthly before electric costs at an expense of $660,000 that someone else already paid? 2 months you make 1.14 million refund $660,000 in funds and profit for life.

Because for a relatively measly profit that would completely ruin whatever reputation you've built up and prevent you from developing and marketing future products under that brand name?

And the overhead to store, run, and maintain a massive amount of hardware...

And the fact that other companies are currently developing hardware with the same capabilities, which will drive down your mining profits exponentially....

And, greatest of all... demonstrating that you have, and will put to use yourself, hashing power greater than 50% of the network would destroy the currency that you need to make a profit. Not exactly a good business practice to nuke the economy you thrive on.

Seriously.. some people need to shut the fack and grow the fack up.  All I'm hearing/seeing is this:

People Type A complains how there are no information about BFL or how they're not transparent enough with their business practices.
BFL releases information on 3D CAD designs for upcoming ASIC protoypes. -> People Type A retorts back saying those are just computer generated images and BFL is a SCAM.
BFL releases information on ASIC production machines -> People Type A retorts back how those can be ovens or machines to make other stuff (conspiracy theories).. and BFL is a SCAM
BFL releases information on ACTUAL real-life ASIC prototype boards as of their most recent news. -> People Type A still continues to bitch about it and says BFL is a SCAM

I swear by the time BFL actually SHIPS the products out, people will still continue to find a way to bitch.  I'm not saying BFL isn't a scam but neither am I saying it is.. all I'm saying is I'm growing weary everytime I read complaints about BFL this and that.  Besides, for those who didn't pre-order their Jallies or Singles.. WHY ARE YOU BITCHING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU NEVER INVESTED IN?  I placed a pre-order in the start but decided to pull out.. BFL refunded me promptly.  That was my decision based on my own due-diligence.  If you didn't place a pre-order, you shouldn't be bitching about anything IMO.  Yes, it's just my IMO and my words can't hurt you.

Geez people.. SERIOUSLY! >=/

i think u are the free SC device winner of the week....we will send it to you some were in december 201?

But you are right we (i) are bitching to much about it...Cheerzzz

am i missing something or did i got lost in the wrong thread? like 2 days ago i posted here, along with someone else and i cant find these posts again. deleted? o.O

it's mainly because of unclear BFL backgroud (their CEO of CTO or who actually is he) and also because of big differences in promised and real power consumption of their FPGA based miners..


it's not only about 'pre-order or not to pre-order'..Can you imagine what would happen if one of the ASIC miner vendors was a real crook and stole hundreds of thousands or millions of USD? I think Bitcoin really does not need another mega fuckup in his short history..Only we can do here is: Ask, ask, ask..and get relevant feedback..

BFL seems to be a leader in ASIC based miners development (OK, they were first who announced these toys) and I would personally expect completely different marketing strategy they actually use - especially PR since what BFL_Josh / Inaba is doing here is a pure disaster..

Here some interesting threads for u:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88363.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.1320

bfl said: "The second USB port is there in case your computer can not supply enough voltage over the primary USB port. It's kind of an added extra insurance and is micro-USB so you don't accidentally plug it in instead of the primary USB which will be used for power and communication.

Both ports can be swapped out for other power related components should we need to change the connector type to something else."

Guy who pre-ordered:  Of course ASICs aren't a scam, you're all just jealous of my anime hair >.>

Guy who didn't pre-order:  Of course ASICs are a scam, and being this is Bitcoin, I don't believe it until I see 6 confirmations <.<

edit:  i'm in for 270gh/s worth of cablepair's bASIC's, there won't be a rage bar big enough to contain my infuriated testicle hairs if they aren't real...

There not real until I can buy one tomorrow :P

So is this BFL ?

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/82/58752545.png (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/58752545.png/)

nop this is bitcointalk.

That image literally took a minute to load. I would suggest using imgur or some other more reliable image host.

so what if it is BFL,(which i think it is not).

as long as they make a device that hashes at 60G for 1200 bucks..  who cares what the building looks like

"Application Specific Intergrated Circut" = A processor desgined to mine bitcoins.
ANYONE seriously believes that ALL the ASIC companies are All Totally full of shit?

Thats alot of Long Cons all banking on the exact same con to work.

My personal opinion is it was just a matter of time with the current bitcon environment that asics get developed, of course i expect scams but not the whole niche to be a scam.
I compare it directly to inventing baggers, with a little difference.
There are scenarios in my mind that would bring asic firms eventually into trouble.

1. An algho change, gues this would be pretty much the worst case.
1.1 An algho change that prevents asic mining and requires multi cpu cpu`s or some sort of ram thing i have read.
1.2 SHA broken - and algho change required lead to 1
2. To low production capabilities.
3. Unprofitable outlook, if for buyers the risk vs reward is not correct the devices simply not get bought.
4. The apple problem (yeah you got a great product but whats the next step, how can the company survive long term, what are innovations to be expected.)

What makes me wonder indeed is the future outlook, what is the outlook for these companies to be still here in lets say 5 years, what would they do then?

Minus the possibility of SHA being broken, once ASICs are online in mass I believe it's pretty much impossible to change algo, as the vast majority of hash power will BE the ASICs, and you can't get the algo to change unless you get a majority of the nodes/miners to change as well. Hence, it will be sha forever from the ASICS point of view.

Let me conter, you wouldnt say electric cars should not be invented because everybody bought gas cars and the manufacturers are focused on gas cars.
I would say, there could situations arise that are not expected or force to a change.
Yea this is all speculation but its pretty naive to ignore that.
The only thing that a situation like this would emerge is that there are probably ,for a shorter peroid where new asic devices get developed there might be less btc for sale in the exchnages. It doesent change the fact that there are 21 million btc to be mined.

THE ASIC IS A LIE  :D

Yes. That is the address they have been using, and it has the owner's name on the building.

Yes this the Butterfly labs address and they repair building foundations, but just up the road is a bigger store that repairs Arcade machines and I'm guessing they hung around in there and got friendly with the electronics engineer and cooked up a plan to make loads of bitcoins?  ;)

Looks legit.

 ::)

+1

@squid used ImageShack not sure why it takes so long to load i did have to re-size it, that might be why its slow

Yep and they are going to get their production lines for SMT & assembly of >300 units a day in there?

Sorry if that is going to be the production facility, then boy have they got some surprises coming.

HC

NOPE!!!

Twenty five years ago I worked on an ASIC design.

1. NO FPGA was used
2. NO it did not cost 'millions' it worked out at about 15,000 British pounds and an agreement to take Half a million pieces.
3. Taking a design from FPGA directly to ASIC, could actually result in a big disaster...... depending on if you use VHDL or Verilog.

HC

YOU like nobody else deserve this image macro.
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/9/9e/HA_HA_HA%2C_OH_WOW.jpg

Obviously you have a comprehension problem.
Over 25 years ago I was a director of a company that worked opposite  Plessey Crypto in wavertree technology park Liverpool.

I wasn't sure why he put that either.

I am Gandhi,
and Jesus,
and Krishna.

What are you doing wasting time on forums then?!? Get out there and smite some banksters.

I'd rather just be Budda.
Being a hermaphrodite would have its advantages whilst waiting for mining  ASICS to ship.

ElectricMucus is number 2 or 3 on the list of people who need to get a scammer tag if any ASIC is delivered before the year is out.

He just needs to start calling the attorney general to get to number 1.

And what kind of scam are you accusing me of?
Please define "scam".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

Making baseless, completely inaccurate, and constant accusations about ASIC companies. The only thing I'm missing to complete the "scam" is what you gain from it.

Please choose one (or more) from the list below:

1.) You've purchased an ASIC, and are purposely trying to dissuade others from purchasing by constantly trolling about ASICs in order to try to slow sales to expand your profitability.
2.) You have a massive GPU or FPGA farm, and are purposely trying to dissuade others from purchasing by constantly trolling about ASICs in order to try to slow sales to expand your profitability.
3.) You support a specific ASIC company, so you're attacking any others.
4.) You actually believe that there's no such thing as an ASIC, at all, for anything ever. Technology that is currently in your home, in use right now, is all just a myth. In which case, you're just batshit crazy, so you're probably in it for a can of beans and some twigs or something.

I haven't accused anybody, because in order to do that I would have to be certain of it. The only reason I am attacked is because I don't make sock-puppet accounts to blow my whistle.

Wait wait wait wait wait... wait.

Just wait a second. Asiics aside; Buddha was a hermaphrodite? Or that was two completely independent thoughts linked together without a paragraph spacing?

THE Buddha was a male prince. A Buddha could be any enlightened person. Male...female...undecided...

Seems a fair response, although it doesn't answer my other question of the connection between being (A/THE) Buddha, and being (A/THE) hermaphrodite  ???

Angry neighborhood bastard mod here.

If you intended to be taken seriously, I think your subject should have been: "Are ASICs a scam?"

The OP believes in only the one true ASIC's. ;)

The answer is no. Not all ASIC manufacturers are scammers.

See? There it is again. 's does not make plural, it makes possessive.

Agreed, but I'll surely not be accused of misquoting the OP this way. :)

Someone is working hard to get their Pendantry Badge to make Eagle Snark.  ;D