|
Title: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 04:05:53 AM Please explain. It's such an obvious thing.
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: tiberiandusk on October 28, 2012, 04:31:14 AM You're a farmer and never use public roads?
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: Explodicle on October 28, 2012, 04:34:54 AM inb4 your point
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 05:31:24 AM I see a lot of posts about "improving the land", such as:
- If I own the land, I have the right to improve the land. - by improving the land, I have staked my ownership of the land. ... Or similar statements. If these are reasonable statements, or statements you might make, or, conversely, if you disagree with them, please chime in. Or if you would like to offer up variants, please do so. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: dank on October 28, 2012, 03:45:51 PM How does one improve nature?
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 04:00:46 PM The title of the thread is the mantra of a lot of AnCaps or Libertarians here. Such a statement always comes up in those endless threads. Rather than resurrect one of those threads, I'm looking for some thoughts on that philosophy.
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 07:14:58 PM See to your own education (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page).
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 08:00:44 PM See to your own education (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page). You sound like someone who is bitter over another matter where you flaunted your opinions about a domain of knowledge you were not fluent in. Regarding this thread, I am actually seeking opinions from the likes of you. Please note the difference: I am not seeking an education from you. I am seeking the beliefs of you and your kind. Big difference. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 08:03:38 PM And again, I have given you a link to where you can find those beliefs. Are you so lazy as to wish me to educate you about those beliefs?
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 08:07:18 PM And again, I have given you a link to where you can find those beliefs. Are you so lazy as to wish me to educate you about those beliefs? I will state this very clearly: I want to know the exact phrasing and wording that you use to explore the topic of land improvement. I also want to know the exact phrasing that others who have similar beliefs as you use when exploring the topic of land improvement. I do not expect that each individual uses the same phrases. Let's start with you. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 08:22:41 PM Here, you can find information about the topic in question in these books:
- Two Treatises of Government and A Letter Concerning Toleration (http://www.amazon.com/Treatises-Government-Letter-Concerning-Toleration/dp/0300100183/). - Applications and criticism from the Austrian school (http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Action-Applications-Criticism-Economists/dp/1858985706/). Better hurry, though, Amazon says there's only one left. - The Market for Liberty (http://www.amazon.com/Market-Liberty-Morris-Tannehill/dp/1610162455/). All of those are fine books, and will adequately educate you on the topic. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 09:13:39 PM Here, you can find information about the topic in question in these books: - Two Treatises of Government and A Letter Concerning Toleration (http://www.amazon.com/Treatises-Government-Letter-Concerning-Toleration/dp/0300100183/). - Applications and criticism from the Austrian school (http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Action-Applications-Criticism-Economists/dp/1858985706/). Better hurry, though, Amazon says there's only one left. - The Market for Liberty (http://www.amazon.com/Market-Liberty-Morris-Tannehill/dp/1610162455/). All of those are fine books, and will adequately educate you on the topic. I am not seeking education. I'm seeking the ways in which individuals here in this forum express their beliefs based upon what they have absorbed. The books would not serve that purpose unless they are written by actual members here. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 09:19:24 PM But I've given you all the information you need to form your own opinions. Why would you want information from us? Are you just that lazy that you don't want to think for yourself?
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 28, 2012, 09:21:30 PM But I've given you all the information you need to form your own opinions. Why would you want information us? Are you just that lazy that you don't want to think for yourself? I'm not trying to form opinions about the information you've given me. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 09:24:28 PM Well, clearly you need to learn about the subject, you're obviously very ignorant of the the philosophy of property rights. You should probably stick to the things you know. Like movies.
Also, I'd like to add that "never, until the day I die, no matter how long I may live" is apparently 6 days. Personally, I quest for knowledge everyday. And I learn everyday. By doing so, I realize that I would never make a statement like you, until the day I die, no matter how long I may live. I am not seeking education. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: fergalish on October 28, 2012, 10:13:59 PM It's funny that no-one seems to be able to give a decent explanation right here. How about this: you make the land more fertile. This could be:
1. You remove all the rocks & stones making plowing, seeding, harvesting all easier. 2. You engage in crop rotation for some years, and improve the range of nutrients in the soil. 3. You construct some irrigation channels. 4. You otherwise add some nutrients, e.g., with manure or fertilizer - organic, if necessary. 5. You do other stuff that somehow renders the land more useful or productive. Is this the kind of answer you're looking for? Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 28, 2012, 10:18:08 PM It's funny that no-one seems to be able to give a decent explanation right here. Oh, I'm able, just not willing. To quote him (again): I have provided you with book links. It's not my responsibility to retype the content of those books here. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: lebing on October 28, 2012, 11:02:25 PM While I'm unfamiliar with both the point of this thread and this mantra... there are essentially two ways of "improving land" as I see it.
1. Modifying the speed of succession to promote an increase in biodiversity 2. Increasing the ability to extract productivity (food, material or otherwise) The best strategies for land improvement do both of these things. p.s. It could be argued that the survival of civilization as we know it depends upon a large portion of the populace understanding how to implement both of these strategies. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: DoomDumas on October 29, 2012, 02:19:04 AM Why own the land or anything else.. This is just one small blue dot in the universe, and humans are just one type of its inhabitant among hundreds of thousand species. Being "intelligent" gives us the right to own ?
This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. After all, we all need, fresh air, clean water, food and shelter to survive, regardless of any of those "human created/outdated" concept such as, country, religion, aspect, economic belief, .. Go visit : http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement (http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement) to better understand my view of this little blue dot in space called Earth Thanks for reading human-earthlings ! Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 02:26:22 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.Go visit : http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement (http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement) to better understand my view of this little blue dot in space called Earth Short version: Kill most of the humans, the rest live in techno-communes, ruled over by a "benevolent" AI.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 03:03:41 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.What exactly do you mean by this? Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 03:29:40 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.What exactly do you mean by this? It's in English. Where did I lose you? Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 03:35:54 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.What exactly do you mean by this? It's in English. Where did I lose you? Where you said elsewhere and mentioned something about less protection. Precision in articulation is golden. Half assed hand waving is decidedly not. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 04:11:46 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.What exactly do you mean by this? It's in English. Where did I lose you? Where you said elsewhere and mentioned something about less protection. Precision in articulation is golden. Half assed hand waving is decidedly not. Less protection = from radiation, the elements (meaning storms and temperatures, not Carbon and Helium), vacuum, etc. Sorry. Kinda figured you knew what these words meant. Especially "elsewhere." I don't think the meaning of that word could have been more clear. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 04:26:59 AM Elsewhere = not Earth Less protection = from radiation, the elements (meaning storms and temperatures, not Carbon and Helium), vacuum, etc. Sorry. Kinda figured you knew what these words meant. Especially "elsewhere." I don't think the meaning of that word could have been more clear. It's not an either/or. Your science fiction dream of abusing here and heading out there is not trumped by the science fiction dream of preserving here and going out there: Here you go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpvOUnz4T7Q) Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 04:32:24 AM Elsewhere = not Earth Less protection = from radiation, the elements (meaning storms and temperatures, not Carbon and Helium), vacuum, etc. Sorry. Kinda figured you knew what these words meant. Especially "elsewhere." I don't think the meaning of that word could have been more clear. It's not an either/or. Your science fiction dream of abusing here and heading out there is not trumped by the science fiction dream of preserving here and going out there: Here you go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpvOUnz4T7Q) What makes you think I wish to "abuse here and head out there"? Perhaps I wish to "preserve here by going out there"? Think of all the industrial processes which could be moved to space to prevent pollution down here. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on October 29, 2012, 09:34:11 AM Usually the land is already teeming with wildlife and inferior human subspecies. However, because the existing occupants don't have an identical culture involving guns and convoluted paper-signing rituals as the invaders, the man-apes cannot evict the 'new owners' in a way that would be both clear and polite. In some cases, the old inhabitants don't have the same concepts of ownership, and don't realise that the first few settlers are just a trickle ahead of a flood. This makes things much easier for the settlers. Historically, stronger groups have always taken whatever they want from weaker groups. The challenge with any attempt to concentrate force to prevent this from happening is that such concentrations can very easily be subverted into perpetuating it.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 03:06:01 PM Historically, stronger groups have always taken whatever they want from weaker groups. The challenge with any attempt to concentrate force to prevent this from happening is that such concentrations can very easily be subverted into perpetuating it. I don't doubt it. However, I'm struggling to think of a practical example (a bit slow today). Something like a neighbourhood watch group turning into a lynch mob and doing unprovoked attacks on nearby residents who happen to be sex offenders/on parole, perhaps? Could you elaborate?http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/1222121142.22.jpg Turning into this: http://images.politico.com/global/080402_iraq_troops.jpg Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: HDSolar on October 29, 2012, 03:52:10 PM It's funny that no-one seems to be able to give a decent explanation right here. How about this: you make the land more fertile. This could be: Ok so I will have some fun here. So lets get into some deep thoughts, do you acquire the property or does it acquire you? As for the list above lets try number 3, you can only do that if you have water rights and you pump you water out but then your hitting the water table so that is a shared item anyways. Now if you don't have water rights then your accessing water from somewhere else so that means your getting water off someones land who will want something in return or no more water. Now number 4 is where we run into a whole mess of what did you put in the ground, did it go off and spread to other lands around you and so on? The times when one could farm the way they did back about 100 years ago are over unless someone does a reset button on all our electronics but then we will have bigger issues such as making sure the guy next to us does not beat our heads in with a rock probably from their property which will be hard work and then using the bodies as fertilizer will improve the land.1. You remove all the rocks & stones making plowing, seeding, harvesting all easier. 2. You engage in crop rotation for some years, and improve the range of nutrients in the soil. 3. You construct some irrigation channels. 4. You otherwise add some nutrients, e.g., with manure or fertilizer - organic, if necessary. 5. You do other stuff that somehow renders the land more useful or productive. Is this the kind of answer you're looking for? Deep thoughts ;D Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 04:50:49 PM Everyone should have an opinion on this, one way or another. Which of these are improvements, and which are "improvements"?
- A developer builds a housing tract at the boundary between a preexisting suburban town and wilderness - A house is built on a vacant lot amidst a fully developed neighborhood - A preexisting dam is removed - A landowner increases the value of his land by ten-fold by building infrastructure on his parcel bordering a wilderness zone - An old growth forest is converted to a tree farm - A dam is built to provide electricity - ANWR is opened up for drilling - A toll road is built which cuts through wilderness to alleviate traffic jams in an 'L' shaped set of cities - A huge wall is built along the border of Mexico and the U.S. - Ranchers begin to use fencing heavily in a rural area between two wilderness zones Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 04:57:38 PM This is starting to sound suspiciously like you trying to "educate" us, FA. You know where to do that.
Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 05:19:24 PM This is starting to sound suspiciously like you trying to "educate" us, FA. You know where to do that. I know exactly where to discuss the topic of this thread which I started. Others are welcome too. You sound like a bitter person. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 06:08:08 PM This is starting to sound suspiciously like you trying to "educate" us, FA. You know where to do that. I know exactly where to discuss the topic of this thread which I started. Others are welcome too. Well, sure. But none of those were on topic. Remember, the topic of this thread is (and I quote:) Quote I see a lot of posts about "improving the land", such as: - If I own the land, I have the right to improve the land. - by improving the land, I have staked my ownership of the land. ... Or similar statements. If these are reasonable statements, or statements you might make, or, conversely, if you disagree with them, please chime in. Or if you would like to offer up variants, please do so. Please try to stay on-topic. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on October 29, 2012, 06:11:56 PM I don't doubt it. However, I'm struggling to think of a practical example (a bit slow today). Something like a neighbourhood watch group turning into a lynch mob and doing unprovoked attacks on nearby residents who happen to be sex offenders/on parole, perhaps? Could you elaborate? How about the United States, formed as a liberation from tyranny abroad, which later killed every Indian it could and fought to annex Mexico.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 06:13:24 PM I don't doubt it. However, I'm struggling to think of a practical example (a bit slow today). Something like a neighbourhood watch group turning into a lynch mob and doing unprovoked attacks on nearby residents who happen to be sex offenders/on parole, perhaps? Could you elaborate? How about the United States, formed as a liberation from tyranny abroad, which later killed every Indian it could and fought to annex Mexico.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on October 29, 2012, 06:15:34 PM I don't doubt it. However, I'm struggling to think of a practical example (a bit slow today). Something like a neighbourhood watch group turning into a lynch mob and doing unprovoked attacks on nearby residents who happen to be sex offenders/on parole, perhaps? Could you elaborate? How about the United States, formed as a liberation from tyranny abroad, which later killed every Indian it could and fought to annex Mexico.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 06:17:17 PM Everyone should have an opinion on this, one way or another. Which of these are improvements, and which are "improvements"? Do the residents at the boundary feel deprived when their extended back yard is taken away? With some foresight, maybe these concerns could be covered with some town codes so that people know what to expect? An extra layer of housing also means more traffic, higher school populations, and generally more pressure on existing infrastructure.- A developer builds a housing tract at the boundary between a preexisting suburban town and wilderness I think the real issue here is suburban sprawl. It rarely goes the other way - i.e. suburban retraction. It only takes one interval of time in which those who defend against suburban sprawl let their defenses down for suburban sprawl to move further out. Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. Do existing landowners benefit? Yes and no. If the preexisting community was rather small, then they likely will benefit, because as the population around them grows, new infrastructure is built, which can both cause home values to rise, while the availability of services rises. On the other hand, if it's already a well developed community, an oversupply of housing might occur, traffic congestion occurs where there is little room for increases of traffic flow, and the inevitable suburban sprawl continues. Ultimately, it's the developer that wins. This is their business. They are a business whose interest is to make money. They don't live in the community. The environment is not a concern, except for where lawsuits might occur. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 06:20:40 PM I think the real issue here is suburban sprawl. It rarely goes the other way - i.e. suburban retraction. It only takes one interval of time in which those who defend against suburban sprawl let there defenses down for suburban sprawl to move further out. Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. I thought this was a thread seeking opinions on the philosophy of homesteading. If you want to discuss ecosystem services, and the like, I believe you had a thread for that, too. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 06:38:07 PM I think the real issue here is suburban sprawl. It rarely goes the other way - i.e. suburban retraction. It only takes one interval of time in which those who defend against suburban sprawl let there defenses down for suburban sprawl to move further out. Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. I thought this was a thread seeking opinions on the philosophy of homesteading. If you want to discuss ecosystem services, and the like, I believe you had a thread for that, too. Really? Why don't you start a thread entitled "Myrkul's thoughts on what threads are about and where posts should be routed"? That's where your posts belong. You're being the ultimate hypocrite. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 06:41:34 PM I think the real issue here is suburban sprawl. It rarely goes the other way - i.e. suburban retraction. It only takes one interval of time in which those who defend against suburban sprawl let there defenses down for suburban sprawl to move further out. Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. I thought this was a thread seeking opinions on the philosophy of homesteading. If you want to discuss ecosystem services, and the like, I believe you had a thread for that, too. Really? Why don't you start a thread entitled "Myrkul's thoughts on what threads are about and where posts should be routed"? That's where your posts belong. You're being the ultimate hypocrite. You sound like a very bitter person. I'm sad for you. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 29, 2012, 06:49:01 PM I think the real issue here is suburban sprawl. It rarely goes the other way - i.e. suburban retraction. It only takes one interval of time in which those who defend against suburban sprawl let there defenses down for suburban sprawl to move further out. Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. I thought this was a thread seeking opinions on the philosophy of homesteading. If you want to discuss ecosystem services, and the like, I believe you had a thread for that, too. Come on... You weren't really expecting gardening tips in the politics section? No, I was expecting politics. Instead, it seems he desires to give out gardening tips. It's a shame, really, I was looking forward to his opinions on homesteading. After he had suitably educated himself, of course. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on October 29, 2012, 07:11:26 PM Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. Right, but it replaces it with something that stakeholders prefer. So mind your own business.Quote Do existing landowners benefit? Yes and no. If the preexisting community was rather small, then they likely will benefit, because as the population around them grows, new infrastructure is built, which can both cause home values to rise, while the availability of services rises. On the other hand, if it's already a well developed community, an oversupply of housing might occur, traffic congestion occurs where there is little room for increases of traffic flow, and the inevitable suburban sprawl continues. You really think traffic congestion is the biggest problem?Quote Ultimately, it's the developer that wins. This is their business. They are a business whose interest is to make money. They don't live in the community. The environment is not a concern, except for where lawsuits might occur. Actually, the value of their own land is the #1 concern of developers.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 29, 2012, 07:50:19 PM Thus you essentially have a never ending growth outwards, which destroys the existing infrastructure of wilderness and the ecosystem services it provides. Right, but it replaces it with something that stakeholders prefer. So mind your own business.The stakeholders interest is purely profit. Profit amongst a small group of individuals is not a metric by which the condition of the world should be defined. Quote Do existing landowners benefit? Yes and no. If the preexisting community was rather small, then they likely will benefit, because as the population around them grows, new infrastructure is built, which can both cause home values to rise, while the availability of services rises. On the other hand, if it's already a well developed community, an oversupply of housing might occur, traffic congestion occurs where there is little room for increases of traffic flow, and the inevitable suburban sprawl continues. You really think traffic congestion is the biggest problem?No. I didn't say that. I think suburban sprawl is the real problem here. Quote Ultimately, it's the developer that wins. This is their business. They are a business whose interest is to make money. They don't live in the community. The environment is not a concern, except for where lawsuits might occur. Actually, the value of their own land is the #1 concern of developers.You just restated what I just said. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on October 29, 2012, 11:36:55 PM The stakeholders interest is purely profit. Profit amongst a small group of individuals is not a metric by which the condition of the world should be defined. The "condition of the world" is just the sum of the conditions of all the parts that compose the world.Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: DoomDumas on October 30, 2012, 04:39:25 AM This very tiny blue dot in space is our only place we can survive.. Instead of fighting to own part of it or it's ressources, we must all aim to preserve it for everything alive on it. It's our duty, has it's the only place we all have to survive. No, it's not. We can survive just fine elsewhere. We just need less protection here.Go visit : http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement (http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement) to better understand my view of this little blue dot in space called Earth Short version: Kill most of the humans, the rest live in techno-communes, ruled over by a "benevolent" AI.Your short version just prove that you did'nt get thru the material, lectures, books, podcasts, videos... May I suggest you get to know something before writing those kind of conclusion.. What peoples tends to do : proceed by shortcut, by association to known stuff in our brain/memory.. If you dont dig, you wont find out ! Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: DoomDumas on October 30, 2012, 04:46:29 AM Quote Historically, stronger groups have always taken whatever they want from weaker groups. Because of scarcity ! Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 04:49:43 AM Quote Go visit : http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement (http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement) to better understand my view of this little blue dot in space called Earth Short version: Kill most of the humans, the rest live in techno-communes, ruled over by a "benevolent" AI.You got a better translation for "live within the carrying capacity of the planet" than "population control"? Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: DoomDumas on October 30, 2012, 05:00:38 AM You got a better translation for "live within the carrying capacity of the planet" than "population control"? Do you know what TZM think the carrying capacity of the earth is ? Again, Association.. You suppose that the carying capacity of the earth is less than 8 billions humans ? IMHO, after getting to know TZM, I'll go for a lot more than 12 billions human ! Please read the stuff.. juat an example : actualy, because of the current economic system we all live in, half of the produced food is dumped/lost each year.. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 05:14:27 AM juat an example : actualy, because of the current economic system we all live in, half of the produced food is dumped/lost each year.. You got a reference for that stat?Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: DoomDumas on October 30, 2012, 05:20:34 AM juat an example : actualy, because of the current economic system we all live in, half of the produced food is dumped/lost each year.. You got a reference for that stat?Look at this : https://i.imgur.com/csD9K.png I've nothing less to add to this thread.. Just read the TZM stuff, they have solutions, based on real science, for all human and life... Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 05:22:28 AM juat an example : actualy, because of the current economic system we all live in, half of the produced food is dumped/lost each year.. You got a reference for that stat?Look at this : https://i.imgur.com/csD9K.png I've nothing less to add to this thread.. Just read the TZM stuff, they have solutions, based on real science, for all human and life... So... that's a no, then? Science means stats, not movie quotes. ;) Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: FirstAscent on October 30, 2012, 07:04:02 AM The stakeholders interest is purely profit. Profit amongst a small group of individuals is not a metric by which the condition of the world should be defined. The "condition of the world" is just the sum of the conditions of all the parts that compose the world.I don't see how a tautology is a defensible argument for letting the condition of the world deteriorate. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: Explodicle on October 30, 2012, 01:45:38 PM The stakeholders interest is purely profit. Profit amongst a small group of individuals is not a metric by which the condition of the world should be defined. The "condition of the world" is just the sum of the conditions of all the parts that compose the world.It's not just the sum. Ecosystem services provide an external benefit to people outside of the landowner's property, sometimes even on the other side of the world. In theory with perfect information and zero transaction costs, everyone would just pay landlords to preserve the environment. IMHO one exciting possible application of cryptocurrency is to make the decentralized solution more practical than the state-run solution within our lifetimes. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on October 30, 2012, 07:06:35 PM In theory with perfect information and zero transaction costs, everyone would just pay landlords to preserve the environment. The converse is also true. With perfect information and zero transaction costs, everyone would request (and receive) damages for reduction in value of their property due to lost services. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on November 04, 2012, 10:52:37 PM The stakeholders interest is purely profit. Profit amongst a small group of individuals is not a metric by which the condition of the world should be defined. The "condition of the world" is just the sum of the conditions of all the parts that compose the world.I don't see how a tautology is a defensible argument for letting the condition of the world deteriorate. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: Explodicle on November 05, 2012, 12:31:06 AM My point is that there's no special "condition of the world" that needs to be specially protected. The same general protections that preserve the condition of a portion of the world will protect the condition of the entire world if applied to it. If my quick explanation wasn't helpful, there's more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on November 05, 2012, 12:51:45 AM My point is that there's no special "condition of the world" that needs to be specially protected. The same general protections that preserve the condition of a portion of the world will protect the condition of the entire world if applied to it. If my quick explanation wasn't helpful, there's more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality Fully private ownership of property will internalize most externalities. That's what we've been saying. Quote Alternatively, it might be seen as a case of poorly defined property rights, as with, for example, pollution of bodies of water that may belong to no-one (either figuratively, in the case of publicly owned, or literally, in some countries and/or legal traditions). If it harms "everybody," then it harms "somebody," and that "somebody" will internalize the cost. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: Explodicle on November 05, 2012, 02:39:39 AM My point is that there's no special "condition of the world" that needs to be specially protected. The same general protections that preserve the condition of a portion of the world will protect the condition of the entire world if applied to it. If my quick explanation wasn't helpful, there's more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality Fully private ownership of property will internalize most externalities. That's what we've been saying. Quote Alternatively, it might be seen as a case of poorly defined property rights, as with, for example, pollution of bodies of water that may belong to no-one (either figuratively, in the case of publicly owned, or literally, in some countries and/or legal traditions). If it harms "everybody," then it harms "somebody," and that "somebody" will internalize the cost. Ok, I'm not even going to retype this stuff for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_Theorem#Criticism Understand transaction costs or don't, but please stop flapping your mouth about economics. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Last time I gave you a supply and demand diagram, you said you didn't understand it because you're "not an economist"... this is INTRO ECON 101 shit, no degree required, take a goddamn class! Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: myrkul on November 05, 2012, 03:00:40 AM My point is that there's no special "condition of the world" that needs to be specially protected. The same general protections that preserve the condition of a portion of the world will protect the condition of the entire world if applied to it. If my quick explanation wasn't helpful, there's more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality Fully private ownership of property will internalize most externalities. That's what we've been saying. Quote Alternatively, it might be seen as a case of poorly defined property rights, as with, for example, pollution of bodies of water that may belong to no-one (either figuratively, in the case of publicly owned, or literally, in some countries and/or legal traditions). If it harms "everybody," then it harms "somebody," and that "somebody" will internalize the cost. Ok, I'm not even going to retype this stuff for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_Theorem#Criticism Understand transaction costs or don't, but please stop flapping your mouth about economics. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Quote In many cases of externalities, the parties might be a single large factory versus a thousand landowners nearby. In such situations, say the critics, not only do transaction costs rise extraordinarily high, but bargaining is hindered by the basic incentive to free-ride and poorly defined property rights—classic public good problems. (Though these problems do not preclude a free market Coasian solution.) (emphasis mine)A class-action tort via arbitration seems an ideal way to keep those transaction costs as low as possible, too. You saying it won't work is like saying that a plane won't fly because air friction exists. Title: Re: I acquire property, and through my hard work, improve the land I now own. Post by: JoelKatz on November 05, 2012, 04:03:03 AM Ok, I'm not even going to retype this stuff for you Transaction costs are a challenge, one a free market would happily take up. Since governments are so bad at dealing with externalities, it's almost impossible to imagine a free market doing worse.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_Theorem#Criticism Understand transaction costs or don't, but please stop flapping your mouth about economics. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Last time I gave you a supply and demand diagram, you said you didn't understand it because you're "not an economist"... this is INTRO ECON 101 shit, no degree required, take a goddamn class! In fact, governments are probably more vulnerable to externalities and transaction costs than any other organization or operation. Voters have no incentive to educate themselves about the issues, almost no incentive to balance the costs of their actions to other people, and candidates have little to no incentive to plan past the end of their terms. |
