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Title: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Bitware on November 12, 2012, 06:11:16 PM https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-washington-peacefully-withdraw-united-states-and-form-its-own-government/9XZNnRSB
Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Lethn on November 12, 2012, 08:48:47 PM Rome will fall.
I seriously hope they manage this, I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: SgtSpike on November 12, 2012, 08:57:47 PM More specifically, Sean R in Washington is not happy.
Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. Strictly speaking economical values here. But it'd be an awesome experiment at any rate. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: jwzguy on November 12, 2012, 08:59:02 PM I hope these people are using Tor.
Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: FreeMoney on November 12, 2012, 09:07:27 PM More specifically, Sean R in Washington is not happy. Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. Strictly speaking economical values here. But it'd be an awesome experiment at any rate. Geography by false dichotomy, would be... interesting. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: SaintDevil on November 12, 2012, 09:16:33 PM I signed it. ;D
It would be interesting to see one small part of the US as a separate country. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: SgtSpike on November 12, 2012, 09:25:19 PM More specifically, Sean R in Washington is not happy. Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. Strictly speaking economical values here. But it'd be an awesome experiment at any rate. Geography by false dichotomy, would be... interesting. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: benjamindees on November 12, 2012, 09:50:50 PM Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. And the problem with that idea is that you can't give either group the eastern half, because the north and the south are too different. And you can't split it latitudinally, for economic reasons. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: SgtSpike on November 12, 2012, 10:05:14 PM Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. And the problem with that idea is that you can't give either group the eastern half, because the north and the south are too different. And you can't split it latitudinally, for economic reasons. Na, I'd say people don't need to move unless they want to. Just label each half, and if people REALLY disagree with the views of the half they live in, then they should move. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: myrkul on November 12, 2012, 10:11:53 PM http://silverunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/FISNA.jpg
If you're wondering where that image came from: http://silverunderground.com/2012/07/rebel-of-the-week-secessionists/ Quote So, If the results of the laboratory experiment aren’t painfully obvious, let’s shake the beakers. Face it, the ideological differences between liberals and conservatives are irreconcilable, and it’s unconscionable to subject one to the bad ideas of the other against their will. Public debate is getting us nowhere because both sides are buried in their own propaganda. We need to actually see the tangible results of unfettered liberalism and unfettered conservatism. So, next presidential election, let both candidates win. Let Romney run the red states and Obama run the blue states. Split the congress. And if Ron Paul wins any states, let him run them too. There’s more than enough “representatives” to go around. Let the liberals try to create their socialist welfare utopia without the republican dime and see what happens. Let the republicans build their corporatist warfare empire without the democrat dime and see where it gets them. Oh, but I think we can do better. Let’s let all the secessionists have their states too. Let the Libertarians run an Independent Alaska. Let the Green Party run the Vermont Republic. The Lone Star State never really wanted to be part of the Union anyway. But let’s get really crazy. Give Hawaii their Kingdom back. Let the Lokota Nation have their independence. Let the Black Panthers have a piece of Louisiana for their Republic of New Afrika. Don’t forget the Conch Republic in Key West. And while we’re at it, let’s let the Voluntaryists have New Hampshire. After all, what’s an experiment without a control group? What’s the worst that could happen? After four years, we’ll take score. See how everyone did. Then we’ll know. We can finally stop arguing hypotheticals and theory and start working with some real observable consequences. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: SgtSpike on November 12, 2012, 11:04:54 PM I love it!
The biggest downside is it leaves conservatives with precious little coastline. :P Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Rudd-O on November 13, 2012, 02:52:31 AM Rome will fall. I seriously hope they manage this, I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. In name only. Last time they tried this, a clusterfuck of mass rape and murder ensued. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: DannyHamilton on November 13, 2012, 04:45:00 AM Rome will fall. It was attempted in 1861. It didn't turn out so well for the states that attempted to secede.I seriously hope they manage this, I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: dotcom on November 13, 2012, 04:49:00 AM This wasn't just Washington, this happened in states across the country after the election.
I believe Texas got the most signatures (like 23,000 or something like that). Also apparently if 25,000 signatures are gotten within the first month of the petition being up the president has to make a ruling on it. That's what I was reading in an article earlier today anyways, haven't really fact-checked it. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Lethn on November 13, 2012, 09:27:47 AM More specifically, Sean R in Washington is not happy. Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. Strictly speaking economical values here. But it'd be an awesome experiment at any rate. The problem is whether you're talking about conservatism or 'neo-conservatism' as I'm sure Americans who actually look at politics will know the stupid and crazy evangelicals have hijacked much of the conservative movement. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Bitware on November 13, 2012, 10:10:33 AM More specifically, Sean R in Washington is not happy. Honestly, I think it'd be best if the US split into two - those with liberal values can have one half, those with conservative values can have the other. Strictly speaking economical values here. But it'd be an awesome experiment at any rate. The problem is whether you're talking about conservatism or 'neo-conservatism' as I'm sure Americans who actually look at politics will know the stupid and crazy evangelicals have hijacked much of the conservative movement. The true christian conservative evangelicals stayed home the last 2 elections. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI8O2SO2dIM&feature=plcp) Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Bitcoin Oz on November 13, 2012, 10:17:27 AM I signed it. ;D It would be interesting to see one small part of the US as a separate country. Lakota Nation recently seceded. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: compro01 on November 13, 2012, 03:44:35 PM I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. See Texas v. White (1869). States do not have the right to unilaterally secede. I don't believe the question of whether states can secede with the permission of the federal government has ever been asked or answered. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: DannyHamilton on November 13, 2012, 03:47:57 PM I signed it. ;D It would be interesting to see one small part of the US as a separate country. Lakota Nation recently seceded. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Bitware on November 13, 2012, 05:20:53 PM I signed it. ;D It would be interesting to see one small part of the US as a separate country. Lakota Nation recently seceded. http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_huey.html Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Rudd-O on November 13, 2012, 10:09:43 PM They can collect 50 million signatures -- if they attempt to secede in any practical way, anyone doing anything to support that end goal will no doubt be slaughtered like pigs.
That is the unfortunate reality. Never bring a signature to a gunfight. :-) Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Littleshop on November 14, 2012, 03:59:30 AM Texas now has 75000 signatures. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions/popular/0/2/0/ Wake me up when it crosses 2.6 million, which is 10% of the population of Texas. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Lethn on November 14, 2012, 04:54:44 AM They can collect 50 million signatures -- if they attempt to secede in any practical way, anyone doing anything to support that end goal will no doubt be slaughtered like pigs. That is the unfortunate reality. Never bring a signature to a gunfight. :-) People have fought for independence before, I think it is pretty naive to think it won't happen again just because of the era we're in, all that's needed is for one of the states to call themselves a republic and then the federal government will throw a fit. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: myrkul on November 14, 2012, 05:07:27 AM They can collect 50 million signatures -- if they attempt to secede in any practical way, anyone doing anything to support that end goal will no doubt be slaughtered like pigs. That is the unfortunate reality. Never bring a signature to a gunfight. :-) People have fought for independence before, I think it is pretty naive to think it won't happen again just because of the era we're in, all that's needed is for one of the states to call themselves a republic and then the federal government will throw a fit. Now, when a state declares itself completely sovereign, and not subject to federal control, that's when things start to get messy. As has been mentioned, last time this was attempted, lots of people died over it. Constitutionally, it was supposed to be possible, but Lincoln rather put the kabosh on that. Before the civil war, one would say, "the United States are." After, one says, "the United States is." This is likely to get messy very quickly, or the US will simply dissolve as an entity. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: dotcom on November 14, 2012, 05:12:39 AM Texas now has 75000 signatures. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions/popular/0/2/0/ damn that went up quick lol Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Lethn on November 14, 2012, 05:49:40 AM Holy cow, it's 92,691 now, what happens if it reaches 500,000? LOL :D
Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: chrisrico on November 14, 2012, 06:07:26 AM I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. Have you heard of a little thing called the Civil War? It paints a vivid picture of the Federal government's stance on state secession. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: farlack on November 14, 2012, 06:09:14 AM I'm curious what the UN will do, they approve of nations becoming sovern and they attack those who try to stop it.
Will the US be able to attack a state that rebels and be hypocrites? Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: myrkul on November 14, 2012, 06:19:00 AM This is likely to get messy very quickly, or the US will simply dissolve as an entity. As bad as the fed can be, I would rather have it around than whatever takes its place. Not to mention what happens in the time inbetween.The "inbetween" is definitely not on my top ten list of things to experience before I die. Life in a failed State is Not Fun®. The replacements for a federal government likely to spring up from such a failed State aren't what I would consider prime vacation spots, either. That said, a dissolution of the federal government need not be the violent, turbulent thing we all fear. Tell me, what interaction with the federal government do you have, on a day to day basis? How much would life really change for you if it went away? The US military would all likely come home. That can't be a bad thing. Who here doesn't have a friend or a relative in the military? Federal lands would become property of the state they are in. Federal income tax would go away. State taxes would probably go up a bit to compensate for loss of federal funding. Probably the worst hit would be the reporters. With no beltway scandals, they'd have to go back to reporting state and local stuff. Poor guys. Step in the right direction, if you ask me. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: TheButterZone on November 14, 2012, 07:02:49 AM Have to laugh at states that violate civil rights with impunity seceding from the U.S. Especially Texas, which uses Jim Crow laws to keep minorities from being able to effectively defend themselves in public, as well as New Jersey.
As far as I'm concerned, their governments have already seceded, as long as they've been using the Constitution they ratified as toilet paper. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Rudd-O on November 17, 2012, 04:20:40 AM I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. Have you heard of a little thing called the Civil War? It paints a vivid picture of the Federal government's stance on state secession. I believe it's called "The War of Northern Aggression" ;-) Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: myrkul on November 17, 2012, 04:33:00 AM I need to double check things but I'm pretty sure it's entirely within the power of states to do this. Have you heard of a little thing called the Civil War? It paints a vivid picture of the Federal government's stance on state secession. I believe it's called "The War of Northern Aggression" ;-) I prefer "The Second American Revolution." ;) Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Haole on November 17, 2012, 04:36:07 AM Well, I reckon you don't ask permission to secede, you just go ahead and frickin' do it.
While this is encouraging, I could see it getting co-opted on a national level and going pfft like the occupy movement for example... Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: myrkul on November 17, 2012, 04:39:37 AM Well, I reckon you don't ask permission to secede, you just go ahead and frickin' do it. While this is encouraging, I could see it getting co-opted on a national level and going pfft like the occupy movement for example... Don't write off Occupy just yet. They're doing good things. But I have a hard time imaging a secession movement being co-opted federally...;) Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Rudd-O on November 17, 2012, 08:39:35 AM Well, I reckon you don't ask permission to secede, you just go ahead and frickin' do it. Correct. Texans asking (pretty please) the feds for permission to secede is no different (in principle and in practice) than Negroes asking their masters to walk free. If one wants to be free, asking for one's freedom ain't going to work, because the very act of asking presupposes that one is not free to begin with. Title: Re: Somebody in Washington is not happy Post by: Lethn on November 17, 2012, 08:47:50 AM Well, I reckon you don't ask permission to secede, you just go ahead and frickin' do it. While this is encouraging, I could see it getting co-opted on a national level and going pfft like the occupy movement for example... Well I hope that's not the case, the problem with the occupy movement is the ones that appeared on the media at least were misguided people really raging against the establishment and didn't actually know what caused it so they targeted the most obvious scapegoat wall street. While these guys did benefit a lot from the crisis they didn't actually cause it. Peter Schiff even posted up a video on youtube where he tried actually debating with them on their own terms and thought they should be marching on the federal reserve instead but they just went ahead and ranted about evil corporations. What I'm worried about is these states that succeeding are only going to be filled with racist and religious evangelicals like the kind that would watch fox news and believe every word of it, if that happens then the movement would lose all credibility and just be another pathetic confederacy. |
