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Alternate cryptocurrencies => Altcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Spoetnik on November 10, 2015, 02:38:56 AM



Title: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 10, 2015, 02:38:56 AM
So vote on my Poll thanks (i'm just curious)

I know in Canada you are suppose to pay taxes on coins.
No idea about other countries though.
Does your country have a Tax law for crypto ?

Here is some Canada related references.

(CBC.ca) Bitcoins aren't tax exempt, Revenue Canada says (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bitcoins-aren-t-tax-exempt-revenue-canada-says-1.1395075)

(Coindesk) Canada Revenue Agency says tax rules apply to bitcoin (http://www.coindesk.com/canada-revenue-agency-tax-rules-apply-bitcoin/)

Following Link Quoted below from the CAN Govt.
(Revenue Canada) What you should know about digital currency (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/fctshts/2013/m11/fs131105-eng.html)

Quote
What you should know about digital currency

 What is digital currency?

Digital currency is virtual money that can be used to buy and sell goods or services on the Internet. Bitcoins are an example of digital currency. Bitcoins are not controlled by central banks or any country, and can be traded anonymously. Bitcoins can be bought and sold in return for traditional currency, and can also be transferred from one person to another.

Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?

Yes. Where digital currency is used to pay for goods or services, the rules for barter transactions apply. A barter transaction occurs when any two persons agree to exchange goods or services and carry out that exchange without using legal currency. For example, paying for movies with digital currency is a barter transaction. The value of the movies purchased using digital currency must be included in the seller’s income for tax purposes. The amount to be included would be the value of the movies in Canadian dollars.

More information on the tax implications of barter transactions is available by consulting the Canada Revenue Agency’s Interpretation Bulletin IT-490, Barter Transactions.

Digital currency can also be bought or sold like a commodity. Any resulting gains or losses could be taxable income or capital for the taxpayer. Paragraphs 9 to 32 of Interpretation Bulletin IT-479R, Transactions in Securities, provide information that can help in determining whether transactions are income or capital in nature.

Should I be concerned about reporting requirements when using digital currency?

Not reporting income from domestic or foreign sources is illegal. Canadians should know that the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) is very active in pursuing cases of non-compliance, in order to ensure that the tax system remains fair for everyone.

If required, you should take this opportunity to correct your tax affairs through the CRA’s Voluntary Disclosures Program. For more information, go to www.cra.gc.ca/voluntarydisclosures.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: ArticMine on November 10, 2015, 03:34:46 AM
Yes it is taxable. Tell me about it. I voted yes by the way.

Mining is basically income. Disposition (sale) can be taxed as capital gains or income depending on the circumstances. Also when digital currency is used to buy goods or services there can be a capital loss or gain that needs to be reported.

Edit: The above is for Canada


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: iGotSpots on November 10, 2015, 07:14:04 AM
Yes


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 10, 2015, 08:11:00 AM
I have to admit i have not and i am surprised anyone has (claimed it on their tax return)
But i pretty much heard about my tax guidelines as i quit doing this stuff (trading)
So i don't know if i am potentially liable / in trouble possibly for not making claims.
If they came knocking at my door that would be my excuse anyway LOL


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: EvilDave on November 10, 2015, 02:23:01 PM
Yeah, I pay taxes on my crypto earnings.
I was already working freelance when I got into crypto, so for me the step to declaring crypto income and paying taxes on it wasn't all that hard.
(well, apart from actually paying the blasted taxman.....)

The Dutch authorities are pretty keen on people paying taxes, for some strange reason, but they are pretty pragmatic about crypto: if you convert crypto to fiat, and that turns up on your bank account, they want a cut.
Fair enough policy, I guess.....and I like living here, so giving up some cash to the NL government doesn't feel too painful.
If I still lived in the UK, I'd be a lot less co-operative. :o


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: ArticMine on November 10, 2015, 02:34:14 PM
I have to admit i have not and i am surprised anyone has (claimed it on their tax return)
But i pretty much heard about my tax guidelines as i quit doing this stuff (trading)
So i don't know if i am potentially liable / in trouble possibly for not making claims.
If they came knocking at my door that would be my excuse anyway LOL

I would suggest talking with a tax professional and making peace with the CRA.

Edit: I am not a tax professional, My take: You are liable and your excuse will not work.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: shanem on November 10, 2015, 02:59:47 PM
I don't know about Canada but for my country it is not taxable as there is no tax for capital gains so any profit earned is all of yours to be kept.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: edmundduke on November 10, 2015, 03:07:27 PM
Really interesting subject actually, havent really thought about it. As far as i know it is not taxed yet here where i live but it could happen any moment (if it hasn't already). Would be really interesting to see if you could claim back some of it from the tax.
Best would be if they pay it back in Bitcoin


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: dloghwak on November 10, 2015, 03:36:03 PM
I have to admit i have not and i am surprised anyone has (claimed it on their tax return)
But i pretty much heard about my tax guidelines as i quit doing this stuff (trading)
So i don't know if i am potentially liable / in trouble possibly for not making claims.
If they came knocking at my door that would be my excuse anyway LOL
Hilarious. Spams all day, how everyone else in the altcoin business is a scammer and at the end of the day evades taxes himself.
To stay ontopic, of course I pay tax on crypto income, better to not fuck with .gov.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 10, 2015, 11:30:50 PM
@dloghwak
Thanks for your contribution and have a nice day.

Interesting talk from you guys i did not expect much of a response here.
Or that so many of you would vote 'Yes'

Maybe i am liable for some back taxes or something but i have to admit my credit rating is horrendous.
But Revenue Canada is the guy that i have always paid in full so..
I've always paid my taxes and had to pay some hefty bills before too.

But i am pretty sure i made some profit with coins before i see those guidelines waaay back on Coindesk.
SO i can't see how i can be in trouble for tax earnings before the law was in effect.
I guess i will wait for someone to rat me out LOL
Wouldn't surprise me i am stalked and threatened here non stop.
And i couldn't care less either  8)

edit:
I probably opened the door for trolling on me here then gave them ideas with this comment.
ahh well i don't care if little douche bags wanna hunt me.. go for it ;)


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Dorrittulx on November 10, 2015, 11:35:45 PM
They shouldn't. I hope they don't. We need freedom. Of course, countries will try to support taxes and enforce them, but it's mostly impossible for the most part...


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 11, 2015, 12:59:15 AM
If anyone has a reference for there country about tax laws let me know i will add it to the first post.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: ArticMine on November 11, 2015, 02:41:04 AM
They shouldn't. I hope they don't. We need freedom. Of course, countries will try to support taxes and enforce them, but it's mostly impossible for the most part...

Income tax collection for the most part relies on voluntary compliance and information provided by disgruntled fomer partners, business partners, competitors, spouses, neighbours, employees etc. In the 1960s the top marginal tax rates were in the high 90th percentile in many western countries. At the same time most transactions were anonymous cash. It is a myth that one needs to track every transaction in order to collect income taxes.

Edit: History has proven that income tax collection is perfectly compatible with financial freedom.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: intristin on November 11, 2015, 05:38:05 PM
It's considered a commodity in the US, so you have to pay capital gains tax, no idea how that would be enforced however. 


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 11, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: iGotSpots on November 11, 2015, 06:09:16 PM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".

He should fire that accountant immediately


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 11, 2015, 07:26:31 PM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".

He should fire that accountant immediately

Why? I am sure that the accountant saved my friend a lot of time and money!  ;D


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: dloghwak on November 11, 2015, 07:53:58 PM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".

He should fire that accountant immediately

Why? I am sure that the accountant saved my friend a lot of time and money!  ;D
Cash seems to be also tax free in your opinion.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 11, 2015, 08:16:17 PM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".

He should fire that accountant immediately

Why? I am sure that the accountant saved my friend a lot of time and money!  ;D
Cash seems to be also tax free in your opinion.
Everyone must form their own opinion.
Here are some facts that you can learn about at your leisure:
http://stopthepirates.blogspot.com/2015/09/cold-hard-facts-about-irs.html
Quoting:
"The IRS agents have no legal authority to demand anything from you, if there are no 3rd party informational documents sent to them with your name on it."


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 12, 2015, 01:38:38 AM
It is NOT taxed if
1) you do not tell the authorities
2) you do not have your name connected to the addresses

My friend asked his tax accountant; the accountant was smart and asked my friend if his name was connected to any bitcoin wallets; my friend said "no" and the reply from the accountant was basically "I do NOT want to hear about your bitcoin".

He should fire that accountant immediately

TRUE !

And it's not about opinions.. as that other guy just said.
it's about the law and the biggest baddest law of them all ! TAXATION

You kids out there think the tax laws are some kind of little joke..
you think because you can weazle scammy shit in the altcoin scene you get away with anything.
well, you are going to maybe find out the hard way the ONLY people on earth you DO NOT want to fuck with is the tax man LOL
No creditor gets their money like the Tax Man ;)
And the punishment for screwing over the tax man is jail !

Capone.. nuff said.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 12, 2015, 03:35:12 AM
it's about the law and the biggest baddest law of them all ! TAXATION

You kids out there think the tax laws are some kind of little joke..

How so, Spoetnik? I don't think anyone, at least in this thread, is refusing to take these tax laws seriously.
What really puzzles me is this: How is it that this community identifies the fiat monetary system as a Ponzi scheme and yet cannot see the origin of the fraud?
How is it that nobody here knows where the money ACTUALLY comes from?
And why did you not refute any of the facts in that source? It's so Easy to spread FUD when you are misinformed and choose ignorance--deliberately!
So, if the Revenue agents are debt collectors, where is their contract with you? Is it based on consent, or is it based on presumption? Is your status as a "taxpayer" even based on any valid law or express contract, or is it all a presumption and implied contract?
Do look at the facts surrounding the IRS because the situation in Canada is almost no different.
Also, take a look at this eye-opening video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaFiX7fV7fs


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 12, 2015, 08:47:08 AM
uhhm what ? LOL

i'd say your reaching.

some of you were saying it's a matter of opinion. (tax laws are not opinions)

i'd say no it's not.. law yes or law no.
there is no in between.. but obviously no law would be more of a grey area.
Such as piracy.. downloading MP3's (in Canada) is not illegal but it's not been deemed legal either (a grey area)
But laws for filing a tax return are i think a lot more black and white.

it's not about conspiracies to me.. just ice cold concrete facts.
If anyone has heard of specific laws pertaining to claiming crypto coin revenue by name please post.
trying to interpret coin revenue into capital gains or something is not what i meant.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 12, 2015, 02:42:52 PM
Opinion? I posted 25 facts, including this one, all of which you ignored:

"The IRS agents have no legal authority to demand anything from you, if there are no 3rd party informational documents sent to them with your name on it."


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: iGotSpots on November 12, 2015, 05:18:10 PM
Opinion? I posted 25 facts, including this one, all of which you ignored:

"The IRS agents have no legal authority to demand anything from you, if there are no 3rd party informational documents sent to them with your name on it."

Make sure you save this link so you can use it as 'Exhibit A' for your defense later on


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 12, 2015, 05:26:08 PM
Opinion? I posted 25 facts, including this one, all of which you ignored:

"The IRS agents have no legal authority to demand anything from you, if there are no 3rd party informational documents sent to them with your name on it."

Make sure you save this link so you can use it as 'Exhibit A' for your defense later on
Defend myself? Oh, it is so easy; this fact I quoted is just the start... It IS a fact, but since you do not understand the context of the law and the presumptions that are made in the process, you will not believe it. You will probably call it a "conspiracy theory". You can choose to fear the taxman, but I will not; I know who I am and I know the law (commercial law). I will not offer tribute to any authority. I question authority, and find the truth for self, but you volunteer to give tribute to the taxman without thinking.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: EvilDave on November 12, 2015, 08:53:12 PM
I touched on this point in my original post, but if you want to live in a reasonably nice society with roads and stuff: taxation is a necessary evil.

Very few have the resources to live as stateless outlaws, so most of us will use every day a lot of stuff that has been built using tax revenues.
Roads are one example: education, policing, sanitation......the list goes on. So, if you use this stuff: pay for it.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 12, 2015, 09:44:24 PM
Yup good point EvilDave !
And Spots is right again too.. sounds like we got one of those i don't have to pay tax guys here.. funny ahhaha
i'm not going to debate whether it's unconstitutional or not.. it's a law.
And it's a very strict heavily enforced law you do NOT want to screw with.. no matter where your from.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 12, 2015, 10:22:43 PM
sounds like we got one of those i don't have to pay tax guys here.. funny ahhaha

Why make a thread and poll if you don't want to hear opinions contrary to your own?

Do tax rules apply? Sure, but only to corporations located within the Federal Zone.

“The individual, unlike the corporation, cannot be taxed for the mere privilege of existing. . . . The individual's rights to live and own property are natural rights for the enjoyment of which an excise cannot be imposed.”


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 12, 2015, 11:57:56 PM
sounds like we got one of those i don't have to pay tax guys here.. funny ahhaha

Why make a thread and poll if you don't want to hear opinions contrary to your own?

Do tax rules apply? Sure, but only to corporations located within the Federal Zone.

“The individual, unlike the corporation, cannot be taxed for the mere privilege of existing. . . . The individual's rights to live and own property are natural rights for the enjoyment of which an excise cannot be imposed.”

i could tell early on here quick you have some outlandish *unusual views.
average people i am sure understand that paying taxes.
hires police, fire, ambulance.
builds roads vs making your own.
space exploration.
emergency rescue at sea (coast guard)
Army (so you don't have the Iraq flag on your money)

i do agree though there should be land set aside tax free to people who want to live in the country off the grid.
there is plenty of arguing in Canada when homeless people set up tents in public parks. (tent cities)
and i side with them.. there should be enough land for people to go and have a place of their own.
But all land is pre-owned, usually by the govt or indian reserves.

the tent city issue boils down to cities claiming they have no right to be there because there are shelters available.
i think that is a crock of shit !

and so does a judge in Abbotsford, BC, CAN who recently ruled the Tent City guys could legally stay in the park.
this freaked out municipalities all over fearing they would have to open their parks to the homeless.
obviously they don't expect tent city guys to pay tax on the accommodation in Abbotsford.

all i ever say is we have to work with what we got.. laws are laws.
if they exist you can't just close your eyes and pretend there is no speed limits or something.
if you want a law changed or removed that is another discussion lol


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: 1aguar on November 13, 2015, 02:41:09 AM
"Army (so you don't have the Iraq flag on your money)"
What did the Iraqis ever do to you? They had WMDs? They did 9/11? What about the fact that this same US military slaughtered 150,000 Iraqis on February 28 1991, in a brutal, horrendous war crime? This same military was ordered to kill these surrendering troops, who were then bulldozed into mass unmarked graves in the desert, some still alive. That makes you feel good and happy? That was worth the expense?

In the US, "all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government". The income tax is voluntary, and everything in this nation is voluntary, it is in the laws (Statutes at Large and Constitution), but you were never made aware of HOW or WHY, even though it is repeated by everyone from Senators to the IRS. Your posts are full of conjecture, never any citations. You need to know the law and do your own thinking. I bet there are lots of things that you are not aware of or never thought about.

I once bought bitcoin from an old lady who told me that she receives all kinds of state benefits and she keeps all of her money and savings in gold so that it is not tracked or taxed. Smart lady; she did not need an accountant or the government to tell her what to do with HER property.

By the way, if you have never sent in any direct and simple questions to the tax authorities, then you would not know even the first thing about taxation, since you never bothered to ASK.


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: fr4nkthetank on November 13, 2015, 03:16:13 AM
rm


Title: Re: [POLL] Do tax rules apply when digital currency is used?
Post by: Spoetnik on November 13, 2015, 04:58:49 AM
"Army (so you don't have the Iraq flag on your money)"
What did the Iraqis ever do to you? They had WMDs? They did 9/11? What about the fact that this same US military slaughtered 150,000 Iraqis on February 28 1991, in a brutal, horrendous war crime? This same military was ordered to kill these surrendering troops, who were then bulldozed into mass unmarked graves in the desert, some still alive. That makes you feel good and happy? That was worth the expense?

In the US, "all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government". The income tax is voluntary, and everything in this nation is voluntary, it is in the laws (Statutes at Large and Constitution), but you were never made aware of HOW or WHY, even though it is repeated by everyone from Senators to the IRS. Your posts are full of conjecture, never any citations. You need to know the law and do your own thinking. I bet there are lots of things that you are not aware of or never thought about.

I once bought bitcoin from an old lady who told me that she receives all kinds of state benefits and she keeps all of her money and savings in gold so that it is not tracked or taxed. Smart lady; she did not need an accountant or the government to tell her what to do with HER property.

By the way, if you have never sent in any direct and simple questions to the tax authorities, then you would not know even the first thing about taxation, since you never bothered to ASK.

You should zip that up.. your Crazy is showing son !

I am a known critic of the US govt. and i am no fan of the US army that is for sure.
I am already on your side but your trying to fight me LOL
I am in Canada and i was proud to have American soldiers come to Canada way back instead of go to Iraq etc

FunFact:
Molson Canadian beer inc. has used the slogan "I AM" for many decades in their advertising campaigns.

All i was trying to say is having your country defended from what ever attacker (no one specific)

Did you just hear about some 911 conspiracy just now ?
You seem riled up about old news.. welcome to the real world  ::)
I also shouldn't have to "ask"
this is a topic on Tax.. so post your tax related comments....