Bitcoin Forum

Dear Devcoin leaders,

I joined DVC community because I believe in it. Actually, my project http://ophal.org got an spike in motivation thanks to the Devcoin Foundation, and for sure you know about the several people that write in devtome.com, they created something with amazing potential!

Yet this project needs leadership! devtome.com has a bug that can't be fixed yet, coinzen.com is still dead, ghash.io stopped mining DVC, we only have two exchange markets left, etc.

Btw, 3 or 2 satoshis per DVC are still not 0, we can make something to transform DVC into what it was created for.

Please do it! Raise leadership again!

Kind regards!

--
Sent to HunterBunter, FuzzyBear and unthinkingbit in PM as well.

Ya the beauty of decentralized coins huh LOL

I wonder how many coins Shakezulu got paid for writing his Scrypt coin cloning guide ? (not the SHA256 one)

Maybe it's dead for a reason ;)

Unfortunately Open Transactions changed the format of their nyms and contracts and such, and still have not settled on a final format, and seem to have given up on the idea of making a GUI client so simple that grandma can use it, so all the wonderful markets of any asset vs any asset at any powers-of-ten scale have gone on hold since long ago now and look to be quite a while yet before they get a final system in place.

So all the stuff at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html is still not simple to trade for grandmas and such, and most cryptocoin folks have never seemed to get into the idea of actually entering into games to wheel and deal, they just want to sit outside and trade stuff on websites without any actual immersion in any games, no characters to get mugged trying to find their way to a back alley exchange in some city on some planet somewhere, no nation to control and keep productive to back its currency and so on and so on.

I have been looking around at the various distributed exchanges / assets systems but so far have not seen one that looks like it would work for the stuff the http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html pages document.

Basically the major nations clans corps groups parties and such mostly trade on paper nowadays racking up notes as to what transactions will eventually need to be plugged into the Open Transactions system whenever a final setup for Open Transactions is ready for use.

But just because the cryptocoins crowd doesn't see it all moving on websites doesn't mean the whole grand design of the Galactic Milieu (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=galactic_milieu) is not still chugging along in the background.

Consider for example that the total amount of devcoins owed by debtors is still way the heck larger than the total number that have been minted, and that fleets of ships continue to ship Deuterium to General Ming Corp (GMC) and General Retirement Fund (GRF) depots carrying typically almost 15 million units of Deuterium per fleet and often four or five such fleets from a given Corp from its various mining colonies you can see from the table at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/deuterium.html that commerce is still strong and is in fact growing.

So just have patience, maybe? Or maybe even throw some bounties into encouraging more players to get involved? Or throw more bounties at Open Transactions developers? Or into whole new technologies to make all this stuff more accessible to folk who maybe are not into running around on two-dimensional maps with individual characters? Or to attract more players into the various clans? Or to encourage folks to make whole new clans, parties, associations and such?

-MarkM-

MarkM I don't get a clue on what you are talking about... can you provide a little context? yet I think you have point here.

Devcoin used to have a big marketcap in the 2013/14 rally. It has sunk lower and lower in marketcap, and since it lost its place on coinmarketcap's first page I hadn't noticed it. Unless the devcoin leaders can give people new reasons to buy devcoins I don't think it will regain its old glory.

Yet the Devcoin Foundation still has (or should have) capital enough to invest and recover, with a good plan we can recover! Don't loose faith that fast.

What's this Devcoin Foundation you speak of?

It is mentioned several times in devtome, for example this:

"10% of all coins go to miners, and 90% goes to the devcoin foundation, which supports open source development."

Source: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=list_of_established_cryptocurrencies#semi-major

Yes, that 90% supports all kinds of Free Open Source development, bounties have been paid from it for doing various things such as setting up exchanges and businesses that support DeVCoins, more bounties can be set up for more useful projects its largely a matter of coming up with good projects.


I gave some links to the wiki, more links branch out from those as wikis are wont to do, there is a lot written on devtome about it all, just follow the links.

( From e.g. the main page http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=galactic_milieu )

There are also threads on this forum, such as:

DeVCorp: DeVCoin Development "corp" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61407.0)

Open Transactions Server: Asset/Bond/Commodity/Cryptocoin/Deed/Share/Stock Exch. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53329.0)

General Financial Corp (GFC) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61557.0)

General Development Corp (GDC) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94785.0)

 General Retirement Corp (GRC) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94788.0)

GRouPcorp (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101342.0)

-MarkM-

Just to let you know that Devtome reached only 17 shares on round 54, while "Ongoing" has 66 shares. So about 50% of Devcoin Foundation's money is going towards "Ongoing" stuff.

What is "Ongoing" exactly?

what should be the bitcoin foundation

DVC

"Ongoing" presumably includes ongoing development such as various developers working on Open Transactions get a share; and also a few lifestyle Free Open Source coders who are always working on some Free Open Source project or other as a lifestyle choice so we don't pin them down to only getting it due to this that or the other project.

Also constantly ongoing are things like maintaining a site where the shares data files are hosted from which the clients get that data (by grabbing from all listed such hosts in the data files they already have and assuming if the majority all have the same data it is the correct/intended data).

Whether the label "ongoing" actually includes all the things that actually are ongoing I don't know. (That is, whether the formal designation includes all things that do keep going on or not.) But a bunch of stuff goes on and on, the advertising payouts for example might still be going on.

Admins and moderators of the forums are probably included, maybe also the hosters of the project's websites not just the forum site. (The devtome wiki for example comes to mind.)

I don't know all the details offhand, but somewhere there is a list of who does what or is supposed to be doing what.

If not on a wiki somewhere then the raw data should be in the github project https://github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity.git

(Each "round" I git pull that and run the perl script in it that I tell the current "round" number to and it creates the new .csv that files I upload (e.g. run "python account.py -round 53" then upload the resulting receiver_53.csv and account_53.csv), then Unthinkingbit tells the other datafile-repository admins it is ready and they grab copies to put on their hosts. Presumably at least some among us all actually checking the files look good/right.

I think I get one share for lifestyle Free Open Source guy without worrying about which coin or transaction server or game etc I happen to work on at a given moment, plus a fraction or few fractions for having ads for Devtome on some sites or somesuch, and one for running one of the permanent-with-port-open devcoin daemons coded into the client (I actualy run three, dvcstable01, dvcstable02 and dvcstable06 dot dvcnode.org, so maybe the pay really is one share for running one-or-more such stable fixed-IP port-open daemons), and one for being one of the datafile-host admins (I happen to be the first one Unthinkingbit notifies, so I do the git pull and run the script and the other admins grab the resulting files from my host, but that is no different in shares-pay than any of the others such admins.)

-MarkM-

Thanks for the explanation @MarkM! Btw, it looks like there is a fair amount of people that receive money from the foundation but we can't keep operations working fine. We need to make changes if we want Devcoin to survive, also, everyone receiving money has the moral responsibility of making something else than just accomplishing the task. For example, to participate in this conversation is a good way to collaborate towards the new Devcoin. Where is everyone now?

MarkM, now I get what you mean! The Galactic Milleu is something I would like to try sometime, is any freeciv server still around?

Regarding your proposal, I think you agree to invest effort and money on something that brings Devcoin back on the growing track. I think that has to happen along with revival of leadership.

Do you think a coins way to success is through flashy graphics and websites?




I think you should invest in websites instead.

The problem of Devcoin is the very high inflation and the low reward for miners.

The Freeciv scale of play moves slowly when it moves at all, because the speed of time moving forward is set by the MUD / Crossfire-RPG scale (the individual-character adventurer scale), which moves about twelve times as fast as time here on the planet known as Earth (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_planet_known_as_earth).

Thus the one-gameyear turns in Freeciv scale should work out to about one such turn per Earth month.

Which is way the heck slower than the so called "Long Turn games" some Freeciv players are used to thinking of as having "long" turns.

The situation is complicated too though by the timelines concept in which we save all the turns of all the planets in case timetravel gets discovered in some timelines. We have the concept of a Temporal Nexus like in Dune, and the "current" Nexi being worked on are not all working on the same year at the same time.

There is also the fact that running the timeline of a planet forward while not all of the civilisations on that planet have an actual human live player playing them here on Earth does not make for worthy opponents, as the non-player-nation system (the artificial intelligence for controlling nations) is not really all that great in Freeciv, especially at the star-trek-like levels of technology used to enable interstellar travel.

So most of the planets in play are mostly sitting idle on the Freeciv scale waiting for more of the nations located on them to find themselves actual players, or, if there are actual players on the individual character scale who claim to be citizens of that nation, or even human players who happen here on Earth to hail from that nationality here on Earth, for one or more of those players to scale up to the Freeciv scale of play.

Right now there is no tool for moving starships from one planet (Freeciv server instance) to another while the Freeciv server is running, so in any case we have to shut down a planet in order to move ships to and from it as we move them by editing the save-file then re-loading the game. So in any case we could not currently move time forward for planets affected by starships without allowing time for that moving of starships phase each turn. So the fastest we'd move on planets affected by starships would be one turn per week.

Right now the most promising place to start play on that scale would be the planet known as M4 (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_planet_known_as_m4), because the "current" year (turn) there is so far back in history compared to other planets so by the years most other planets are up to a lot of development could be accomplished.

The catch with starting on M4 though is that it is, as the M designation indicates, a Martian planet. The other civilisations are mostly basically city-states and almost all are at war with the Martians, most of them implacably so. The Battle for Wesnoth (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=battle_for_wesnoth) campaign Martian Invasion 1594 (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=martian_invasion_1594_campaign) shows how the Nova Scotians - represented on the Freeciv scale by the Scottish since there is no Nova Scotian nation in the standard releases of Freeciv and we have so far only been using Rulesets to adapt the game for our purposes no actual graphics etc mods such as would make for a full Modpack - fared.

Some further insights into the fate of the Nova Scotians can be seen in the Mystery in 1596 (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=mystery_in_1596_campaign) campaign, and the character Scotty (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=scotty_galactic_milieu) is also seen again in the Between the Worlds (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=between_the_worlds_campaign) campaign.

One of the advtantages of the slow or even sporadic movement forward of time is this ability to take the time to create Battle for Wesnoth (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=battle_for_wesnoth) docudramas documenting events, providing players with an interesting, interactive view into history so they can experience for themselves the drama of various Temporal Nexi and potentially, some day, when such campaigns can be played live with multiple players at once, even to change the timelines.

For civilisations that would not be content to start on a planet already basically taken over by another civlisation there are some startup planets, for example we are shown in the campaign Mystery in 1596 (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=mystery_in_1596_campaign) a glimpse into the initial startup phase of a startup planet, maybe some players would choose to play one of the currently unplayed civilisations found on that planet...

So far the main hook into the overall economy for the Freciv planets is the hosting fee, which for many players is a huge "catch" that discourages them from that level of play.

Basically each civilisation is charged fees based on the number of "square miles" of territory Freeciv shows that civilisation as controlling. That fee is levied per Earth month, and amounts to typically less than five bucks for a single-city state but into the thousands for large civilisations controlling huge swathes of large planets (such as the Brits and the Canucks; the planet M4 which the Martians mostly control is only a size four planet so works out cheaper.

These fees are paid to General Holding Corp (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=general_holding_corp), known here on Earth as General Hosting Corp, and are deliberately high compared to just the cost of running a Freeciv server because it is intended that three-dimensional views on individual-character scale eventually be created using, probably, Open Simulator, so folks can walk around on the planets if virtual reality.

General Holding Corp is not listed usually in the publicly traded Corps listings because it is not publicly traded; it is intended that its shares be owned by civilisations, so that civilisations can balance their fees against share ownership, ideally being able to own as large a percentage of the shares as the percentage of the total fees of all civilisations that their fee is, so that in effect they are paying those fees to themselves. But of course how much the civilisations that currently own the shares will be willing to part with some for, and how many they will turn out to be willing to sell to which newcomers, remains to be seen...

..Which is one of the places where the Galactic Diplomacy Planet (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=galactic_united_nations) can be useful. By creating a science-fiction character (rather than a fantasy character) in the "CrossCiv (http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=crossciv)" server it is possible to meet up with individual characters from other civilisations, in order to dicker about such inter-civilisation matters...

NOTE THOUGH that this is a big reason why we do not tend to favour using dividend-paying Corps: if the existing holders received dividends instead of having to realise any gains by means of actually selling shares, why would they ever sell shares? They could sit back collecting money, having a monopoly. By not using dividends we create a situation in which as the shares appreciate in value more and more incentive is created to sell a share or few in order to "realise" those gains...

I should probably clarify here that a very big reason why these fees are a big turn-off for many potential players is the fact that one cannot even depend upon a game-turn happening on the Freeciv scale on any given Earth-month. The prospect of paying fees for potentially years without even having the timeline move forward a turn is a big barrier to many potential players.

The Brits, Canucks, and Martians have no problem with the fact that time has not moved forward on their planets in literally years of Earth-time, but then again they own the lion's share of General Holding Corp, so they are basically paying their own Corp.

To counter this problem it would maybe be best to not just start Freeciv-scale play oneself but, rather, to round up enough players that all the unplayed nations on one planet can have players, so that time can then proceed to move forward without any of the civilisations on the planet having the huge handicap of not having a player to guide what they do.

-MarkM-

How is all this related to the revival of Devcoin leadership?

I guess mostly by the fact it is the largest DeVCoin project I know of and has years of work into it already and involves a DeVCoin-based economy that is far larger than all the DeVCoins that have ever been minted.

(For example the current amount of DeVCoin-denomated debt owed to just one Corp, General Financial Corp, is right now 1470190457098.60393880 DVC.)

Maybe it has more to do with the need for a revival in the leadership since so far it seems to have pretty much escaped the notice of the leadership almost entirely.

The leadership of various other currencies are far more involved in the game it seems, and correspondingly their currencies seem to be faring much better.

Since most of the Corps and Clans and Nations and such focus more on their own currencies than on DeVCoin, and even the shareholders of specifically DeVCoin-oriented Corps such as General Financial Corp and DeVCorp do not seem to be people who are part of the leadership of DeVCoin, most of the DeVCoin-denominated debt is in practice being paid in other currencies, since the operators of the Corps don't much care which currency they get paid in, they just look up the current conversion rates and act accordingly; the currency does not touch the exchanges at all, each Corp just owns so much of each currency and when they buy and sel stuff the spend whatever they have enough of that the other party is willing to accept, using the conversion rates to work out how much of this is supposedly equivalent to how much of that.

If DeVCoin leadership were more involved, maybe they would run things differently, or at least make a token effort to urge folks to pay using actual DeVCoins.

It is actually a bit of a circular problem really, because DeVCoin conversion rates are so low that when someone looks up how many DeVCoins fifty million units of Deuterium is worth, they see it comes out (at current conversion rates) to 65659.88181221 * 50000 = 3282994090.610500000 DVC, which is nearly one third of all the DeVCoins that exist, so it is instantly obvious that it is extremely unlikely that anyone is going to be able to pay for that shipment of Deuterium using actual DeVCoins. The circular part is of course that fact that if DeVCoins were worth thousands or millions times as much as they currently are then paying for fleet-loads of resources using actual on the spot DeVCoins could start to look more feasiable, which would in turn make the idea of picking up enough DeVCoins on the exchanges to enable such a purchase look more reasonable / feasible.

The leadership of the Brits, or the Canucks, or the Martians or whatever are quite happy to step in and point out that if you were to use United Kingdom Britcoins (UKB), Canadian Digital Notes (CDN), or Martian BotCoins (MBC) such transactions look much more feasible.

So maybe if the DeVCoin leadership was more involved they could somehow accomplish what the Brits, Canucks and Martians did.

-MarkM-

I spend my afternoon trying to figure out how to get into DevCorp/Galactic Mileau/OTX and everything seems off-line or outdated. Also, the only server/galaxy that seems to stay alive is closed to new people.

The project looks pretty promising and might be something that would help Devcoin revival, yet it seems pretty hard to figure out how to get new people in.

For individuals the simplest way to peek into it is to point a Crossfire-RPG client at CrossCiv.no-ip.org and take care to create a non-fantasy character so that one can get into the Galactic Milieu instead of ending up in the Fantasy milieu.

Usually there are a few people who hang out there 24/7 like one does on IRC so that when someone wakes up and checks their client they can see someone new is logged on and if within earshot of them as it were they can also see what questions they have asked them while they were away from keyboard.

Even though newly created characters start with a few scraps of clothing weapons food and such we still take the risk of that kind of "creation of gear out of nothing" upsetting the economy on that scale, unlike in the web-based intergalactic mining colonies system in which entire massively expensive colony ships get sent out in "back time" as new players join, creating entire massively expensive mining colonies out of nothing without nayone having to have built the colony ship etc. Any game systems that create that much stuff out of nothing as random passers-by on the web pretend they want to play then never log back in again we have to keep closed against random signups else the whole economies concept is blown from the start. We have to have people start with as close to nothing as possible and earn resources with which to create stuff, or pour in funds of some kind so that stuff can be bought for them from existing stockpiles / production.

As it is, all the small gear in the CrossCiv server needs to be virtually worthless so that someone spending all day or night starting new characters piling up their gear then deleting the characters cannot instantly upset the entire economy.

(Even if the characters started naked and empty-handed they are made of meat or other ingredients/stuff so just creating one character able to kill the next umpteen you make and butcher them into parts could create free stuff, so unless there is some charge to create a character we might as well allow them to be clothed and have a few items and just assume however much you could make by spawing umpteen characters is not really any easier or more effective than other simple unskilled work one could do with one character.)

-MarkM-

Dashcoin is more popular, you can switch to Dash. Dashcoin have many users, transactions are very fast, also mining is fast  ;)

I was not aware that Dash was in the business of supporting free open source projects. Can you provide links to its documentation about how it supports such things, as even if folks continue to get support from DeVCoin if there are other coins that also support such things I am sure they would be interested.

How and where do free open source projects apply for support from Dash? What are the criteria a project must meet to receive such support? Etc...

-MarkM-

While we keep waiting for Devcoin leaders to show up here and renew our hope, I want to take a moment and wish everyone in Devcoin community a profitable 2016.

Enjoy your holidays!

The way you write, you sound like you're in charge of the project. Do I have the honour of responding to the General Holding Corp head man?  :)

The main contractor they get to do the actual work, basically. General Holding Corp acts as a buffer and accumulator and funds-storage between the actual expenses of hosting and developing, which is the pittance currently neded to keep machines online, and the prices the civilisations pay, which from the outset has been set up to be enough that if we already had all the worlds mapped out in three-dimensional virtual reality the fees are enough to cover all that.

I am Digitalis Data Services, a sole proprietorship which charges General Holding Corp tiny amounts for the hosting and such because right now we don't actually have hundreds of millions of players all online at once wandering around in full-blown virtual reality.

General Holding Corp is dominated by the large nations who pay the huge fees to have vast numbers of "square miles" according to the Freeciv representations of planets and have entire currencies of their own which General Holding Corp accepts to pay those fees.

But I am also basically the "Gamemaster" of the whole game too, which I suppose in some ways does kind of put me above all the Corps and Nations and the entities which compose them.

I am in charge of the Galactic Milieu project, but part of the job of a Gamemaster is to try to put players in control as much as possible of stuff within the games such as Nations and Corps and so on.

-MarkM-

Okay, thanks.

@MarkM, your proposal so far is the only one with a game plan and you also have the infrastructure to support it. I mean, why not to try it?

Btw, perhaps is because of holidays but I'm getting a bit impatience for the lack of response from the community, only a handful of people appeared in this thread the last few weeks. Well for those who think Devcoin is death, for the rest I'm here open to proposals and ready to take action!

no need to read co9mments above.
gut check opiniojn on what DVC ought be:

bitcoin foundation >>> devs programming 24/7; THUS fund;

other than that it was a boondoggle and bonus check for anyone-SHA256-uber-farmers on an MM pool
project = fail; loop if thus far(Fail);

reorganization = NEEDED;

ELSE IF (1) >> move to next level;

Lack of response from Devcoin leadership is a bit disappointing, I think it is time to start a revolution, anyone willing to join?

We should try to find out what level of access is needed to address the Devtome problems, as in do we need the domain pointed somewhere else we control, or can the controller of the machine the domain currently points to do something, or is it merely a matter of a username on the machine needing to be controlled by someone new who will actually fix the problems, or what?

-MarkM-

It has been months waiting for a solution, waiting, waiting, waiting. All we got is that someone contacts someone else and there is no response back. If we keep waiting nothing will happen. That is why I'm calling for a revolution!

OK, adding this thread to my watch list.

+, FWIW, I'd love to see it be resurrected. It was an awesome run for a long time, and it'd be great to see it come back as strong as ever.

Good vibe @ranlo! A few of us are discussing an action plan, anyone willing to help please PM me.

CONCLUTION

1. @Hunterbunter was right! several leaders "just have no interest in keeping them ticking, and don't respond when you try to get them to do their job." (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=233997.msg13277774#msg13277774)
2. We have to fix things by ourselves!

Everyone is welcome to help fix things in this new thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1317408

Please help! Do it for the people that is still believe!

Thanks!

After getting a bounce notice on the DevCoin Mailing List, it came to my attention that the list was not sending to my currently used email address and missed the Jan 6th notice of this thread. Have read through and will now monitor it.

- Nova

Dan Treccia reporting for duty.


FYI - the guide spoken of here is the same guide co-creator of Dogecoin "Billy Markus" admitted to using to create the first Dogecoin software. Food for thought.

All the upcoming coins have the same popularity strength i we all know swapping the existing coin to Dashcoin their is no changes what matters is the market regulations and market strength of the coin, i think we have to check exactly the coin that can accept it swap that is of high recognition than Dashcoin, but i did not say Dashcoin is bad or is not good suggestion but the popularity strength does not reach any where it still unknown to many people