Bitcoin Forum

2011 Error coin graded MS-63. This coin has a really nice shiny surface, but a few small marks along the rim of the coin. Asking 2.55 for this coin - very good deal for a 2011 error.

Just got an offer of 2.8BTC. I am not a big fan of private offers so if someone else makes an offer I will PM all parties and they may bid via PM with 100% transparency. I know not many would question me, but that is what I would prefer if I were bidding.

Definitely a stunning coin... Is that fresh off of some forgotten roll? It doesn't seem faded in the least. I would definitely like to be included on the group PM bid if you would be so kind as to include me. Thanks  :)

Ridiculous sheen on the brass side. Not quite the same sheen on the holo side. Couple of nicks around the edges, but thats the brasses for you.

Difficult to 'grade' in my mind. First impressions of the coin, given that sheen, is a definate wow.

Is the last digit missing on the hologram? 

I noticed that also, but it must not have been printed from what I can tell? The coin does not look handled to me in any way. Here is the full address -> https://blockchain.info/address/17jQvv24kHXpW9RctP2SoE12Z8Z45euQG9

So it is missing "4"

Good spot DC.

Include me in the PM list too.  This coin looks great.

In your opinion does the coin look cleaned? It would be strange that Mike forgot to print the last digit.

To me it looks like part of the last number 2 is missing its right side.  So I think something smeared off the ink.   If it was cleaned, how does that affect grading?  Would ANACS penalize it and maybe give it some remark on the slab like "Cleaned", "Altered", etc?

If the coin were cleaned there is no way someone would try to clean the hologram? The coin has no swirl marks from cleaning on it that I can see at all. I did not buy this directly from Mike so I really can not say what is up with that missing letter. I do know that ANACS will not care about it grade wise.

Edit: This is why I prefer dealing with graded coins lol... I will say that it looks the same face wise as one of my MS-67 errors coins. I can put a pic up of them side by side if it helps? Maybe I am better off just grading it...meh.

 
The coin looks either cleaned or polished.  This could have been intentional or the result of being in a soft cloth bag in someones pocket for a long period.  I'm leaning towards polished on the face because the reverse doesn't look touched.  The most obvious sign is the darkness or non-polish around the raised surfaces like the vires in numeris lettering and the date(see second pic).  Just my two cents.

Every polished coin I have ever seen has swirl marks on them though.

I would consider selling this one for PayPal if the buyer is trusted enough. Opinions on if I should just grade this or not?

Take the chance and grade it, maybe you'll keep getting MS-70's for the community :P

having had a grade of ms60 for an error coin with missing bits i am not so sure they will not care.

Got a pic of that coin? I am guessing it has a lot more issues than some missing digits on the hologram. I had a handled coin that was rough that at least graded MS-63.

Blazed, why do you defend ANACS grading while admitting that you repeatedly send back coins to get re-graded basically admitting that their grading is arbitrary\inconsistent and in effect worthless?  I love that you are transparent about this but confused by the defensive stance.

In the coin grading world coin resubmits are expected and common. I am not defending ANACs I am saying that no way his coin got MS-60 due to the hologram. ANACS even offers re-grading services and all grading companies admit grading is subjective and can change with the grader.

"it's estimated that as much as 75% of the graded population of some issues is from resubmissions - for instance, PCGS has graded 100 of them but there's really only 25, being submitted over and over again. If the coin is worth enough in a higher grade, people will submit it 25 times in the hopes of catching that one grader having a bad day who upgrades it"

It is how grading works with all companies not just ANACS  ;)

Thanks for the response, I didn't realize it was so prolific.  It's really only been since I can track a unique feature on a coin like a bitcoin public key where it has really stood out to me.  There was a certain amount of opaqueness before.  The biggest lesson for me has been how ignorant as a consumer I have been.

Well for what it is worth the only coins I have ever collected are Casascius coins. I started doing a good amount of research after submitting my first batch of coins for grading (early 2013?). My understanding is that if you get a coin back and feel you were shafted on the grade it is expected you resubmit it. ANACS (along with all other graders) offer to crack the slab and do not tell the graders it is a resubmit. The slabs are removed in a separate area by non-graders. I feel more comfortable removing my own slabs so that I know for a fact no damage is done...

My understanding from speaking with ANACS is = ANACS only cares about holograms if they have been peeled or are damaged physically.

After typing a long response, I closed the window - Damn.  Retyping most of it here....

Polish - As a common test, you can rub the coin with your finger or better yet, a q-tip.  Typically, you will find it leaves a black residue from the polish that you can't see until rubbed.
My very first coin was given to me for my birthday years ago when the coin was worth $30.  He was rubbing it with windex and the letters were lighter.  I thought it was a dumb way to do the stickers, but I guess it didn't matter since the Pkey was still secure under it.  :)

With the above said, I have sent in many coins to be graded.  I thought ANACS messed up on a couple, because I noticed that the label on the case was diff than the first bits I sent in (being a character missing).  It turns out that uberbills / casascius list shows a one more than the coin was showing.   So, it's possible you simply have a misprint of the last character.  Can this be considered a double error cause of the spelling and missing character?  Probably not, but maybe so on the S2 coins which are printed under the label.  (Really just an alignment issue when printing)

I will get a couple of pictures tomorrow (if I get a chance) of such coins.

Coin's definitely been cleaned in some fashion, as evidenced by the heavy patina around the date and Vires in Numeris. There's no way a coin with that many nicks on the edge and back wouldn't be covered in tarnish on the front.

Maybe the previous owner rubbed it for good luck every day.  ???

I cleaned my redeemed casascius Brass with Ketchup and it did wonders. Would never think about doing it to the original. Brass does oxidize over the years.

I will just send this coin in and have it graded. I am pretty sure this will be MS66/67 easy.

Here are a couple of examples of the prefix being 1 char off than displayed on the coin.

Four Images... 2 front/2 back  (2 coins)
http://imgur.com/a/JLSdC (http://imgur.com/a/JLSdC)

1AgNXMs is actually 1AgNXMsk  http://casascius.uberbills.com/?address=1AgNXMskH1AHJLx3AGZGTHVYAhsTkVGZy2 (http://casascius.uberbills.com/?address=1AgNXMskH1AHJLx3AGZGTHVYAhsTkVGZy2)
1AgB6XH is actually 1AgB6XHg  http://casascius.uberbills.com/?address=1AgB6XHgbawDgZ1MBxhaxr8BZbudAeVg9n (http://casascius.uberbills.com/?address=1AgB6XHgbawDgZ1MBxhaxr8BZbudAeVg9n)

If you search Casascius list or uberbills, it will show the full prefix (8 Characters instead of 7).  Fortunately, uberbills shows the closest coin instead of simply an error saying it doesn't match anything.  I will look for S1 examples if I get time.

(I have previously stated firstbits.... Yes, I know it's really the 'prefix' and what the difference is.)

Big difference between Blazed's coin, and the examples with public keys not lining up to hologram windows, IMO. With the holo window, you know thats how they left Mike. Its not possible to be 100% for the series 1 coin.

Strangely the public keys not lining up to hologram windows is fairly common, and it seems the the 0.5 silver is where this happens most frequently (or thats where I have seen it happen most) ..... I have graded a few 0.5s like this. I have even seen 1 coin with only 6 of the 8 chars visible through the holo window.

ANACS will list the full public key on the slab, even if the full key isnt visible, if you can show them that the full key can be uniquely inferred .... ie you can see 7 of 8 characters, and even with just those 7, using a search on uberbills (or the casascius fulllist.txt), the full public key is the only one with those first 7.

It takes an emailed explanation to ANACS (and I include a print out of that email with the physical shipment) detailing all of the above. Hopefully they will then print all 8 chars on there. I have also managed to get them to do a reslab of a coin like this very recently (first came back with 7 chars, then reslabbed with 8, following explanation given).

I am unsure if ANACS are now referencing uberbills / spotcoins / fulllist.txt as part of their process.

Agreed.  Most of mine are S1, and I have seen it; however, it can't be listed as an error since anyway can simply erase a character.


In my experience, this is not correct and may have been an exception for you.
I specifically provide a printed and emailed list each time I submit coins.  The list shows full information (prefix, public key, funding day, year, demon, etc) including what I want said on the case.  Each time I get my coins, they still do it slightly diff.  I have even had to send coins back to have them re-case cause I wanted it to say GILT instead of Gold Trim.  They were also saying "with 'Casacius'" instead of the serial/prefix.  I know they use my printed list or at least look at it, because they check off each coin (not simply make (for example) 10 checks for 10 coins, but 1 at a time because the checks were diff orientation, etc).

I guess nothing is perfect. 

I think I will just send this into ANACS and post if for sale once it gets graded. My guess is MS-67...anyone else care to guess what it gets?

Cleaning/polishing a coin is a major No-No in the world of numismatics, and greatly reduces the coin's market value. I don't know for certain about ANACS, but NGC and PCGS will not assign a numerical grade to a cleaned coin, only a "Details" grade, which assures authenticity but does not determine value. The coin can still be noted as Uncirculated, About Uncirculated, etc., such as "UNC Details - Cleaned".

However, I definitely can't say without a doubt that Blazed's coin has been cleaned/polished without seeing it up close in person. Sometimes coin graders need to use magnification to tell if a coin has been cleaned or not, usually looking for fine hairline scratches and noting the lack of luster or of the smooth flow of an original coin's struck metal.

MS65

Wager .02 with the winner getting the pot?  It would certainly be entertaining...

Not sure why you guys think it was cleaned as it look identical to one of my MS-67 coins. ANACS will label it cleaned if it was and it would wreck the score.

We will find out in a couple of weeks though...just shipped it out.

 
Given everything that has been said, I find this sad and funny at the same time.

Has the physical coin market slowed so much that we are reduced to betting on Blazed's coin grades? :D

Should give us more Silver coins to bet on too :P

I have more coins...who wants to start betting?  8)

Even if it is considered as cleaned by ANACS, they will still grade it
http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/Services.aspx (http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/Services.aspx)
But they will state "cleaned" on the slab, I believe. I dont know if they will then grade automatically at 60 because of this. All depends what they think.

Reading around a few forums (general coins, not cryptocoins)... its seems folks that have got cleaned coins, allow them to 'age a little', making the cleaning less obvious before submitting. It also seems that folks who have had coins come back labelled as cleaned will resubmit, hoping next time to dip under the graders radar. Even having them in a pocket with other coins for a while to 'unclean', accepting a lower grade, rather than a 'cleaned' label

Cleaning would be a way too risky option to do as a deliberate strategy for Cas coins in my mind. I had considered it for a particular coin, but decided against it

My gut feeling for this one is either a 60, or a 66, depending on which way ANACS go. Watching with interest, good luck :-)

This coin has been cleaned. This won't even fetch 60

I would have a little flutter on 60 / cleaned (66 is free for someone elses punt)

No seriously, it's been cleaned. Probably won't get a grade at all.

But this is ANACS, even if it doesn't get a grade, Blazed will just keep sending it back until it does.

Who wins if the result falls out of the 5 options (higher than MS65) ?
Perhaps make 5 ranges:

1. not MS / rejected
2. MS60 to MS61
3. MS62 to MS63
4. MS64 to MS65
5. MS66 or above

You can divide the cake different if you like :D

Doesn't change the fact it's been cleaned. Which is fine, but the value drops due to this.

If ANACS calls it cleaned you are correct it hurts the value. If ANACS says it was not cleaned then it is fine. This is how coin collecting works not just with ANACS, but all coin graders. In other words we see what the professionals have to say about it. I have had other coins that were that clean and they graded just fine.