Bitcoin Forum

Those can kicking masters have done it, now it looks like the world is going to be in for one hell of a recession, perhaps a depression.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/31/fiscal-cliff-congress-deadline-live

For once I agree with the daft reporters, these politicians really are masters at kicking the can down the road? How the hell do they do it and get away with it so easily? Pop goes the bubble!

I can live with this.

Simple. They have a "job" that only comes up for "review" once every two, four, or six years (for Congress, President, and Senate, respectively) and their accountability is limited to either being retained or not according to how the great swarming mass of people vote. If they fail the "review", they simply move into a cushy lobbyist or corporate position, and if they pass, they continue feathering their nest for another 2, 4, or 6 years.

The system is the scam of the millennium, and such results are anything but "unexpected".

Speaking of economics and cliffs, this (http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?threaded=1&v=Hrg1CArkuNc&page=7) seems relevant:

Can't US.gov just declare bankruptcy already, shut down and liquidate to pay back everyone already?

That would mean admitting that they were wrong, which no mainstream politician ever seems to be able to do.

This. We need term limits and knowledgeable voters. I know, too much to ask for.

You dont understand the monetary system.  It is not possible to pay everyone back.  ALL of our money, 100% of it, every single dollar in existence, was loaned to us, with interest.  If we paid back every dollar ever loaned to us, how would we pay back the interest?

Looks like just more of the same garbage from the one party US system. Loot the "rich", pilfer the bodies of the dead, give some scraps to the lazy and ignore everything inconvenient. The rich will shelter their funds or leave as ever and the poor and lazy will give back all they've been given and more through the inflation tax. The ruling class will pat themselves on the back, give themselves a raise and in a couple months we'll rinse and repeat.

>You expected a different result?

I did honestly, I thought they would pass some half-ass measure allowing us to limp on a little further whilst saving them face. However, just because that's what I expected doesn't mean I'm surprised by this result either.

It has to pass the House next. I am hopeful that some of this garbage will be stripped and rewritten but hope springs eternal.
$1 in cuts per $41 in tax increases??

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/PiccardWTF.jpg

The incentives are all wrong. Every voter knows that their vote, individually, means next to nothing. Since their decision is practically meaningless, there's no incentive to make sure that decision is well-informed.

This, and there's enough misinformation spread by the various media organizations that voters can just sort of pick one and adopt their opinions from it. Which allows them to appear like they're informed and politically active, while saving them from doing any actual research themselves.

Yep, this highlights the major flaw in our monetary system.  The problem that  [P < P + I] (P = Principle I = Interest) - this is the math of a debt based monetary system.

That said, bankruptcy is probably the best option. Just shutter everything, sell off the assets, and tell whoever doesn't get paid back to go pound sand.

I agree, we are too far gone at this point.  We need to reset the system and flush all the bad debt out of the markets.

...and when the system is reset faith in the USD will be destroyed...enter AMERO!

As long as the USD is the World Currency the FED will just keep printing it.

And as long as the media shoves microphones and cameras in politicians faces they will bask in the warm glow of the kleig lights as they blame the other party for all the woes of the american economy.

Meanwhile this is all playing out according to the Council on Foreign Relations plan.

The US economy will eventually collapse.  The Eurozone will eventually collapse.  

Then the CFR will finally have a world currency with which they can dictate world policy.

Bitcoin?

Agreed. Just gotta get those pesky guns out of our hands. It's so much easier to oppress an unarmed peoples.


How about some nice SDRs? :D

Nah bro, YOU don't understand the monetary system. There is no interest owed on the treasuries that are held by the Federal Reserve.  You are repeating disinformation of Edward G Griffin who spins his silly little misinformations, probably because he doesn't think you are smart enough to see what is wrong with The Fed as is.  So he couches it in dumbed down terms and just makes stuff up, like "all the money is loan into existence."  It isn't.  Get your facts straight.

People who actually understand the system, like me, cringe every time some one repeats this falsehood.  Stop making me cringe.  The national debt can totally be paid off.

Isn't that our end game? 

Except for the fact that I = 0 bro.  I say again NO INTEREST IS OWED ON THE SYSTEM OPEN MARKET PORTFOLIO AT THE FED.  This whole argument of "unpayable debt" is some kind of fabrication.   Maybe by good meaning people who wanted to make The Fed look bad.  Maybe they thought the explanations for how they selfishly serve the bankers was too complex, before the whole bailout mania helped expose it.   Or maybe they decided to arm opponents with bogus information so you could be easily dis-proven.  

There is nothing impossible about paying off the national debt if the public will was there.  As to why we as a society would rationally turn over that much wealth to creditors is a totally different issue.

First off, we owe trillions in Treasuries to other foreign governments and entities. 

I don't think you understand where most debt/credit creation happens.   It is by the commercial banks.  They lend it into existence and that has interest attached too it and then at the same time carry the debt as an asset on their balance-sheet (or sell it off).  They do this in a fractional manner with almost no reserves.  This is why there is more P +I at all times in the system. 

What central banks do mostly is cover the spending of the government by selling and buying Treasury bonds and also sell Treasuries (high power money) to commercial banks so they can keep fueling credit/debt into the system.

You may need to do more research on this or actually explain how the system works and where the flaws are at.   If you come at me silly-style like that again, I am going to take you to task.  I read source documents and they are old, do try and treat me like some idiot. 

I say we needed this let's get it over with shall we!  ;D

 gerald celente or max keizer.

I stopped taking you seriously at "Nah bro", but I would love to see proof that the fed lends us money at zero interest, because I can list you at least 5 different sources that prove you wrong.

How nice of the federal reserve to loan us money at zero interest.

Each every few month I'm surprise how they can bluff this mess again !  They are really good at doing what they do, to bluff that everything will be fine !  I'm constantly surprise.. now, I no more try to guess when the shit will hit the fan for real, as per my first guess it was due 2 years ago !

Dry food, firearm and a hideout in the forest, with some bitcoin is what we need, and fast !

If you need the first 3, the fourth will do you no good.

The Federal Reserve doesn't 'officially' loan people money at zero interest but it gets that money back through taxation and the IRS, didn't you watch that collapse of the American dream video? LOL :P

Aww, and I was hoping they wouldn't come together or do anything. Had my parachute all ready for the jump and everything.

Actually the Federal Reserves Sells Treasury Bonds from the Treasury in their Open Market Operations to Primary Dealers who act as agents to the public buying Treasuries.  Then the Fed sets the discount rate (interest) and then buyers come in and purchase at their desired yield.   The Fed can purchase these Treasuries (which they currently purchase many of) for their own balance-sheet (ie: Quantitative Easing).   The Fed also sets the reserve ratio for the commercials banks and what assets are allowed for collateral (Commercial Paper, MBS, Older Treasuries, derivatives, etc....).   

Now to the question on how the Fed loans at zero, well there is this thing called the "discount window" where a bank can bring various collateral and then get in return Treasuries and currency credited to their account.  If the interest rate is 0-0.25, then that is what they will being paying to service this collateralized loan.   The flaw that has been exploited by the banks is that they bring very dubious assets (Home equity lines of credit, mortgages and derivatives) and collateral to get basically free money that they can either lend at interest or actually hold with the Fed and earn "free money" because we are actually paying interest on money deposited with the Fed.

I am happy to answer any questions or refute false claims.  We need to all do our homework so we know exactly how our system works.  If you do not know that then your spreading mis-information and that only gives more cover to the real exploitative actions happening in our economy.   

Excellent post Dalkore.

What Dalkore said

Dalkore,

I understand everything you said, and it does not contradict anything that I said.  This explains my understanding of how it works, better than I can.

http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse/chapter-8-fed-money-creation 


If this is not factual, please let me know. 

I need to do more research in that case thanks for that Dalkore, I'd like to know the sources for where you got that from though.

I wish it was that easy, it has been years of research to get to a point where I understand atleast the public workings in our financial system and I am still learning about new players and pieces each day.


Here are a couple books:

The Federal Reserve System - Written in 1937, its a sort of official manual

Modern Money Mechanics - Published by one of the reserve banks

Science of Money - Alexander Del Mar  & The Lost Science of Money which is a derivative of this work among others

Lombard Street - This is an important work that is considered by some as the bible of central banking

Tragedy & Hope - Carroll Quigley (1st edition or reprint of 1st edition) - At a normal pace, this will take you 2-3 months, don't rush it.

 

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes. [...] You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election." -Warren Buffett


I'm always impressed with the dumb people that are elected to office. But then I realize how many dumb people there are in the U.S. and things start to make sense again...

Why doesn't it surprise me that is a Warren Buffet quote?

Ha, I know right?

Though as drastic as it sounds, I wonder if it actually would make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

The problem is not that they can be re-elected. The problem is that they are re-elected. It makes no sense that the clowns remain in office despite the fact that 85% of people disapprove of their performance. The problem is with the voters, not with the politicians.

Nope, the system itself is fucked. There's no incentive for the voters to care:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance

I think it is worse than that:

The masses are net beneficiaries of the system, so they would probably support this system even without rational ignorance.
Another very big percentage, like you said, just don't care (until it is too late).

What is left is a few nerds on the internet, who nobody takes seriously and cannot change a system based on majority rule.

And after the system collapses most will just turn around and tell you: "Well yeah, I always knew that it was fucked. I didn't support it really."

Possable that Rome is burning?

Probably not a good idea. You'll basically end up replacing people who know what the hell they are doing with people who are clueless. At least in the private sector there is an abundance of skills learned from other businesses. Since the government is a monopoly, you can't just hire a Senator from some other Senate.

People not knowing what they are doing might actually do a better job because they would then revert to their own common sense and sense of morality.  I would actually rather risk gather a random person from the street and make them Senator than put my faith in someone who "wants" to become a Senator.

Agreed. I think a lot of people go to Washington with ideals intact and then get indoctrinated into the "club" and eventually join the pigs at the trough. How long can your average person refuse bribes from the army of lobbyists before they begin to give ground and sell out their countrymen? :-\

Precisely. Imagine what you [generic use of you, not directed toward creativex haha] would do in their shoes. You'd have all these good ideas and well intentions, and then someone tosses you a million bucks to help them pass a law to help, say, regulate the internet. Now think about what you would do with a million dollars...does any of it involve making the United States better for everyone, or are your ideas mainly focused on yourself, friends and family?

Naturally since this is the internet, you can pretend to be someone else and say you're going to donate every penny to some charity...but the reality is that you're probably focusing on your well-being first.

Probably. Most will cave, and I don't know that I'd be any more immune than anyone else. I don't care about the $1M of fiat, but if someone came at me with a 5lbs bar of gold and their ugly sister no one wanted to date...well...

I do believe a lot of this organized crime could be eliminated with strict term limits. Congress should be staffed by average citizens not career ruling class creeps that may or may not have started out with high ideals and lofty goals to improve their nation.

whatwhatwhat? You must be a bigger man than I. I'd break a lot of my principles for 1 million US ...

I wouldn't. Not if the counteroffer was 5 pounds of gold and a lay.

First of I was under the impression the offers were cumulative ;)

On the other hand if they aren't. 5 pound (80 ounces) of gold is like $133k US atm, so I guess you must value a shag from an ugly chick pretty damn high ;)

Sounds like a variation of William F. Buckley's quip that he'd "rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University."  :)

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
--Benjamin Franklin--

Very nice, WFB has some nice quotes & quips over the years.  I wish he were still around today R.I.P..

Dalkore

I value metal over toilet paper, actually. The shag is a bonus. ;)

Me too, give me something real any day.

Ha! Couldn't you just take the 1 mil, buy 35 pounds of gold with it and spend the rest on a top quality hooker..err "Escort"?

Well, that's a valid point, I suppose.

Long as the cash hasn't lost 97% of it's value by the time you get to the bank, where they'll no doubt alert the appropriate authorities.

I'll take the gold and ugly sister, long as she doesn't tell anyone I went slumming. :P

Ha! Politicians are classier than that...I always imagine them as the monocle dude meme as they deposit their exorbitant checks into their offshore accounts..just like you would do in their situation!
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/343/462/79a.gif

Hullo...? (((GOLD + UGLY SISTER)))

Nadler? Frank? Schumer? Classy? HAHAHAHAHA ha ha

Pull the other one!

Let us not forget our BEAUTIFUL GhoulSecretary of State "We came, we saw, he died! HAHAHAHA" ugh.