Bitcoin Forum

Hi everyone.

This is the lender Altcoin4life and i am looking for some advice regarding a situation i have regarding a hacked account i hold collateral for. I recently gave a loan to the user murderouskirk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=182223 for the amount of 0.13 BTC. My lending thread is below (LOAN #16 IN MY LEDGER AT TOP):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1295650.0;all

The borrower murderouskirk was supposed to repay his loan on 20 Jan he is now overdue.


When i gave this loan i did not suspect anything and thought he was a legitimate borrower, i took over account as collateral and he provided a signed message here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1295650.msg13554319#msg13554319

His trust looked ok, i transferred the coins to the borrower soon after securing account as collateral.




Within 12 hours of me sending of the money i started seeing negative trust being given against murderouskirk, people saying he tried to scam them, his trust became -2 neg???

PLEASE NOTE THE NEGS HAPPENED AFTER I GAVE COINS, AT THE TIME OF AGREEMENT THERE WERE NO NEGS.




After about 5 days a user called SwingDev https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=730429 contacted me by PM, and said he was the original owner of the account murderouskirk and that he was scammed. . I told swing that as the repayment date has not arrived, we should wait. Now the date has passed with no repayment.

I asked him for proof that swingdev was the real owner he said he could not find a staked address....... now a few days ago he said..... he had found an address here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1164721.msg12788990#msg12788990

1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71






I asked that he should send me a signed message from this address 1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71 , he has refused to provide a signed message and is saying that he can send a  few small coins from this address to me instead, this will prove he owns the address, BUT HE IS REFUSING TO GIVE A SIGNED MESSAGE???




From the beginning i advised swingdev he should contact theymos with a hacked account report, he has said he is hesitant as he has heard theymos does not respond and that many people do not get their account back..... NOW HE HAS RECENTLY SENT A REPORT TO THEYMOS A FEW DAYS AGO.





So i wanted to ask lenders especially

Shall i give back the account of murderouskirk to swingdev? or shall i just wait until theymos checks this out and hands it over to the real owner?

Swingdev is REFUSING to give a signed message so am not sure what to do?

Please can i get opinions on this situation from experienced users.

Thanks
Altcoin4life

But main question the colateral isnt the account? Soo the owner didnt made anything let his account ask for loans and then from no where came back and is requesting theymos its account?Soo you will loose 0.13bt the account ,and the owner will get the account back just like nothing had happened ?For me makes no sense give the account as you deal and just before then the real owner reported the account lost... sounds amazing more without the sign message,my advice dont return before theymos confirm and choose how to deal with those situation ,you can loose funds because an hacker and the owner report now is too late at my point of view,if my account got hacked i would report at the same day.

Until he shows a signed message or a non-manipulative proof that the account is his, he should not be given the ownership of the account.
Edit: And as the person above me said, even if he does shows proof of ownership, a recount of how exactly the account was hacked would be necessary and an explanation as to why he turned a blind-eye to use of his account.

theymos won't do anything either, if he refuses to provide a signed message.

Even with the signed message the lender will take the loss because someone hacked an account and the owner just didnt reported to anyone?
Soo i got hacked and let someone use my account,with a good reputation,get a loan and then i come back saying someone took my account ? This is why take accounts as colateral is getting risk ,and the negative feedback just made the account worth be almost nothing,but well someone had adviced to avoid the loan as tryed to scam others ...

Basically, they'll never(rarely) get their account back without a signed message.

 If I was you I'd not.
I'd say theymos 'll never reply(ignore 'em). ('coz they're impotent to sign a message/prove their ownership). -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=497545.0

P.S. How about moving this thread to meta board?

Hi mexxer

He is refusing to give a signed message.

Swingdev  said that he has been busy with other things and that the account murderouskirk was used by him as he was a devloper of a new coin or alt called Swing Coin? 

He also says he has many other internet accounts under murderouskirk username eg twitter, reddit,

He posted this

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoPumpInfo/comments/41gnsp/hi_altcoin4life/

He has been busy with coding

https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/3zml4v/java_irc_bot_and_whispers/

SWINGDEV HAS ALSO THREATENED TO LEAVE ME NEG TRUST AS I AM NOT GIVING HIM HIS ACCOUNT BACK?

He is saying he can not sign a old address as it is a coinbase address?

He is saying that giving me an old signed address from 1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71 is dangerous ??

I do not understand the thinking of swingdev? how is it dangerous?

What do you think about his reason for not reporting the hacked account immediately? why did he not post a scam accusation or hacked report in meta?

Let me know
Thanks
Altcoin4life

He is not able to sign a message of any address stated in one of his account posts ?
If he is not able to prove the ownership of the account, you don't have do give it back as it likely seems to be a scam attempt.
You don't have to fear about his neg threat, since he don't have any reputation, it will not affect in any way your trust.

That means, he should be nowhere close to the account. Unless
1) Theymos/BB/DT 1-2 member say other wise(with some "vouch" that they guarantee that swing is the owner)
2) He provides a signed message from a staked address
you shouldn't give control of the account. If the second happens, you should come to an agreement regarding the loan , 1/4th, 1/5th , one-half etc. of loan should be repaid by him before giving control of the account.

Story makes less and less sense, anyone can register those accounts.
Coinbase allows users to sign a message.
Paranoia, signing address has no negative consequence on security whatsover. Also, do ask when the address was posted from murderous account

Well just stating a possibility, he might have not known of the steps to recover the account

Should you return the account if the individual claiming to be the original owner claims it be the original owner without proof?

No, there is no correlation between the individual Swingdev and the account without a staked signed message. Why can an individual send a few coins from an account but not just sign a message?

Should you contact Theymos to wait and see until this is resolved and the account is back into the hands of the original owner?

I don't think so, I'm pretty sure Theymos is occupied with others more important things and would likely not resolve this issue.

Conclusion of story: It is probably a sold account but the individual claiming to be the owner is probably not the original owner without a definitive signed message. It doesn't make sense that someone can send bitcoin from their own address that they claim to be their own but can't sign a message from the same address.

as long as you dont get a signed message there is nothing to do.

Hi everyone just to let you know  that swingdev has still not given a signed message from an old staked address.

But he has sent me 0.0001 BTC to my normal repayment address 1HbPkpQiKgq48mCpL5BTxyVsHf4fjM8uop - Proof is below:

https://blockchain.info/tx/ccae00b48dd1d0a7f80897fc063b469f16ee9c45f09ddb6450a0fe153b6dae74


If he has now proven??? that he owns the old staked address 1E6soVzn7Z5NGguwD9sZfXkVmn8a51Cg71  that was posted here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1164721.msg12788990#msg12788990

WHY CAN HE NOT JUST SIGN A MESSAGE FROM THIS ADDRESS? DOES THIS PROVE HE OWNS THE ADDRESS AS HE HAS MADE A PAYMENT FROM IT?

SWINGDEV, PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES NOW.... WHERE IS THE SIGNED MESSAGE ?

Thanks
Altcoin4life

I have my doubts because who truly knows, maybe this individual knows the owner of that address and ask for coins to be send to an your specific address. Unless there is a signed messaged stating I am the original of this account and I would like it returned, I, myself don't believe it 100% because of all the inconsistencies that seem to be apparent.

Dude how many of these threads did you make?

I have verified ownership with digital signature over in what I guess is the most active thread on this subject

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1341682.msg13688787#msg13688787

Altcoin4life is now trying to sell my account to me to make up for his loss.

I was not providing a digital signature due to a misunderstanding in the signing process. I was under the assumption that both Theymos and Altcoin4life were asking for blank signed messages. I have never proven ownership of a bitcointalk account before and did not understand that a timestamp and message is included. You can understand why I found that a ridiculous security risk and flat out refused.

My confusion was cleared up in the other thread thanks to whywefight.

Having ownership over more accounts with the same username all aged makes my ownership less credible? That's news to me please do explain. Regardless I've signed the signature and proven ownership.


I didn't know that at first. I wrongly assumed since you didn't have the private keys you couldn't sign. I signed a message (incorrectly blank) and sent it to theymos. Then initially refused to send a (wrongly assumed blank) digital signature to Altcoin4Life. This was because of my confusion posted above.




Correct. I only knew about signing with Theymos (which i got even that wrong as posted above). I've only heard bad things about that process not working at all so i was hesitant and hoped Altcoin4life would be kind enough to return it. I was also pretty sure I couldn't sign anything at the start. I figured it was worth talking to him as my first shot because he has a positively repped profile. I didn't consider writing a scam report. My account was stolen, I was not scammed. The thought didn't cross my mind till it was mentioned in these threads. And what's the point in making one now that Altcoin4life has kindly made like 5 threads on the subject.

There is no kindness here, throw that idea out of your head. If you provide something for an obligation or someone provides something that you should of had somewhat knowledge of occurring, you are partially responsible. If your account was stolen, it was taken, provided a loan for and taken for collateral. You have nothing you can do besides that you were the original owner and you failed to maintain it. The lender made the assumption that the original owner was behind the control of the account. Either way, if you want it back, you should purchase it back whether for full price or for half price if Altcoin4life wishes too. The account is now the property of Altcoin4life and it is justified.

I'm quite sure SwingDev does own the account since I was one of the first persons to about to get scammed by murderiouskirk.You can easily make out from the post quality comparing first 2 pages and the aged ones.SwingDev seems to be a programmer ,I had told the same to mexxer in a private message that the old account owner was a Programmer.I think its Altcoin4life's fault for lending money to someone who already had accusations against him and you had been warned by mexxer to not trade with him.I hope the account is given back to SwingDev.

Also SwingDev has provided a signed message in the other thread.

@Altcoin4life: Why are you creating multiple threads about this issue? It really scatters the information.

Hi Swingdev

Thanks for your reply

I will let you know as i am thinking how i should proceed.

Cheers
Altcoin4life

Nope, if something is stolen and then sold off (or in this case given away/taken collateral), it stays property of the original owner, as the thief didn't have the right to give it away in any case.
Altcoin4life isn't the rightful owner, SwingDev proved to be.

Why does Altcoin4life have to return the account voluntarily unless requested from a moderator or administrator? Is that the morally right thing to do? Yes, how does someone take collateral with the assumption it is stolen? From now on, should every account be assumed to be stolen and not taken if the lender defaults? Still a sum of money was defaulted and the lender should recover some of it to be fair.

Thanks for the input! This is the way I see it too.

If Victim A gets his car stolen by thief B, then B sells it to victim C, it's still Victim A's car and A does not carry the debt of the illegal sale, regardless of if C knew it was stolen.

If victim C returns the car to A once he realizes, he's likely to gain credibility, reputation, and probably a tip from it.

Now if victim C tries to sell it to victim A to cover his loss once he realizes it's stolen property, and refuses to give it back unless A ponies up for his loss, that's still trying to sell stolen property and is not ok on C's part. C is taking similar actions as B at this point. At no point does A incur C's debt. In this scenario C loses credibility and A crosses his fingers that C changes his mind or the cops (admins) come solve the dispute.

So yeah, I'm not going to be convinced into buying my stolen property back, especially when I know who has ownership and can take responsibility for any malicious changes in the account from this point on.

If he returns it I will, as I've stated a few times, leave him a positive credibility review and tip him for is troubles should my portfolio grow in the future.


You can easily tell if an account is stolen or at risk of being hot as a lender. Altcoin4life was supposed to check for an aged digital signature to prove it was not stolen. He failed to do this and as a result accidentally purchased a stolen developer / hero account.

Also I hate to say it as I don't think Altcoin4life would do this, but I'm not going to be pressured by the community into paying him for another simple reason. The guy is in the business of giving loans on aged accounts. Any defaulted loan adds a semi reputable account to his possession. Anyone trying to pressure me into paying him before returning it after he reached out to the community for suggestions could be him on an alt. Not no mention the quickest way to "wash" a stolen account and sell it back to the owner is by publicly selling it to your lending account. Again I do not think Altcoin4life has done any of this but as a matter of principle I'm not going to let this possibility come to a clean end.

Again. That doesn't seem to be happening here. I think Altcoin4life is too credible and self respecting for that. But having been scammed myself before and targeted repeatedly just for being a coin dev I've learned to consider these things.

So unfortunately heres what I think the situation is. You can either A. Wait for Theymos to give you a reply but extremely highly unlikely . B. Negotiate with Altcoins4life to give your account back or agree on a specified amount. C. Take it as loss and move on.

Just to be aware, you should of properly secured that account with a strong password because if it wasn't stolen or hacked, you wouldn't of had this dilemma in the first place. Proper security of that account was your responsibility and that you can not deny. 

Almost correct

I can either
A. Wait for Theymos to give you a reply but extremely highly unlikely .
B. Cross my fingers that Altcoins4life does the decent thing and gives my account back.
C. Take it as loss and move on.

Also Duomo could you please give me a lesson in proper account security? What makes one unique password more secure than another when this site doesn't allow 2fa?

Side note, if anyone wants to follow the full conversation on this topic here's all the links I can find:

In my Swing altcoin thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1164721.msg13580743#msg13580743

In lending: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1341677.0
In Scam Accusations: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1341680.msg13683665#msg13683665
In Meta: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1341682.msg13683675#msg13683675

Did you just legitimately ask what is the difference between theses two passwords in securing an account without 2FA?

Password 1: Apple1234

Password 2: XmKY;ua+<:J!L3+P]c5Cs-Gnw

What password is harder to hack and brute-force.

It is partially your fault to begin with.

Have a nice day.

Ps. Good luck getting your account back.  :)

Both of those have equal security when being phished or keylogged. 1 is stronger than 2 yes, but the account is still vulnerable to any half decent hacker. Who brute forces passwords these days? Plus, does this forum have capatcha or lockouts on failed logins? Either would render brute forcing pretty useless. If those are not features on this site that's just even more sad.

And thanks! I appreciate the well wishes.

Not if you legitimately know what are genuine webpages that you regularly visit and the emails you receive. Also with the issue of being key-logged, how would you get key-logged if you input all the text (including your passwords) on the on-screen keyboard? Just admit you properly didn't secure your account and your just trying to find arguments that your account wasn't properly secured and your just trying to shift what is partially your fault.

TIL Duomo uses on-screen keyboard for all text entry (including passwords).

Good for you man. That's a good habit to have.  ::)

Thanks, I like finding inconsistencies and holes in your story which don't add up.  ;D

Have a nice day and good-luck.  :)

Like what? So far all you've come at me with is that I should have secured my account better and therefore must pay Altcoin4Life.

What makes you so sure I didn't have a long complex password?

Please, do tell how you have this miraculous insight into the vulnerabilities that my account had.

And why is it that you're pushing so hard to find reasons for me to pay Altcoin4Life?

Look, whether or not the lender pays you is not up to me and nor do I care because it isn't my account or my issue. I am just stating my opinion as the original poster has asked. Just to make this established, the individual took this account unknowingly, there was no criminal intent to scam or cause harm which you try to make it seem. If you start having a conservation with Altcoin4Life, maybe you will find a useful resolution, not by arguing whether you were in the right or wrong. 

Like I said. I don't think Altcoin4life had any malicious intent. I just felt the need to explain my reasoning behind not buying my stolen property back from whoever ended up with it after scam hot potato got played. It just makes me a target for future theft among all the other reasons I've stated.

I've been conversing for the past 10 days with Altcoin4Life. I've had enough and I feel I've made my position clear. If he wants to be kind hearted and help that's great. If he wants to hold my account and try to get me to pay for his loss, then my account will hopefully die peacefully in his hands unless Theymos steps in. That's all there is to it.

I did not take out a loan on my account with Altcoin4life. It is not my responsibility to pay off the loan to get my account back as if I did. If he returns the stolen account to the proper owner (me), I will consider tipping him to help cover his loss out of thanks, not by demand.

Demanding I buy my stolen goods back before having them returned is not ok in my book and will not be rewarded and encouraged.


Now if you want to push blame on me in an attempt to get me to pay him, then point the finger at me when i hold my ground, so be it Duomo. But that doesn't change anything here.

I have made my own scam accusation thread. Please close this one and consolidate the multiple threads open on this topic.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1343710.msg13700602#msg13700602

I agree with this x1000.  I do hope swingdev gets his stolen account back with no hassle.   It is rightfully his.

Thank you The Pharmacist  ;D I appreciate the support.