Bitcoin Forum

It's going to be less than a few weeks before the coin launches!

Maidsafe developer Ross created a new blogpost on the Maidsafe website:


Maidsafe Blog: Development Update (http://blog.maidsafe.net/2016/02/04/maidsafe-development-update-2/)

And I quote:


The small price pump confirms it, it's preparing for the launch too!

All decentralized file systems are doomed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1344997.msg13730325#msg13730325
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1340057.msg13670558#msg13670558
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1340057.msg13783053#msg13783053

@TPTB_need_war

I see you on a lot of threads here.

Whats your favorite altcoin and what altcoin(s) you are hodling? Or do you hate them all?

What's being released soon is called the MVP(Minimum Viable Product). The MVP will not have SAFE Coin integrated into it yet. To see what else has to be done after the MVP is released read here -  https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/maidsafe-dev-update-8th-december-2015/6289/107

It's very exciting to have the MVP release but there are still things to done and I'd like to prevent people from setting their expectations really high only to get let down.

He hates them all equally, because they all have fatal flaws.

@OP

I have adjusted accordingly.

I think the value of Storj will take a hit if Maidsafe is released, so I took my profits there. Storj looks like it is enduring a correction anyways. I will leave that in BTC until I think it has bottomed, which I don't expect to happen until MAID's MVP is released, and then get back into my Storj position as I still feel like it has good potential to compete with Siacoin. MAID seems to be a different beast than Storj/Siacoin.

I left my Siacoin position the same as it was, since it is still the only data storage focused cryptocurrency that is actually out in the wild and working. It also has a solid developer behind it that has been pushing out updates often. Also, Siacoin seems to be targeting more of a niche "dropbox" market, while MAID is targeting a wide market... "the internet, messaging, apps, email, social networks, data storage, video conferencing, and much more."

Also, I bought up some more cheap MAID because I think it will explode when it is successfully released.

Indeed I hate when people are promoting technology and they don't even enumerate the tradeoffs or bad aspects.

Any one who can't state their weaknesses and still find a way to make their coin compelling based in fact rather than hyperbole is on my shit list. Especially given none of the altcoins (except perhaps DOGE but I am not sure about that) have any adoption (other than speculators) at all.

DOGE is I guess an example of a coin that is humble/honest about its technological significance and overachieves and understates. But I am also a bit ignorant of all the details of DOGE's history and current state.

So for now, the only coin I support is Bitcoin mainly because it has adoption and creates the market for crypto as well as having Satoshi's invention for decentralized consensus (but also acknowledge the scaling is broken and it is being centralized). Also Bitcoin doesn't have on chain privacy. I also support the research on Zcash (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1342065.msg13791613#msg13791613) and it has the potential to be a coin I support because the technology is a potential game changer but not sure yet, depending on how the details play out. And especially if they remain very honest and open about the pitfalls in their technology (and it also depends too what they do with the funding and distribution strategy but I can support the open source research regardless).

I give an honorable mention to Cryptonote coins for attempting to solve the privacy issue. Also a fair mining launch (to some extent). I have no qualms about them getting some ROI in the markets. But I no longer support the technology (see link above for my reasons). I understand many of those guys put a lot of money and effort into that. I never did like the way their community behaved (snobbish, overbearing, etc).. They've seemed to have stopped that now, so hopefully there is peace. Perhaps they could say the same about me being overbearing or in too many threads. C'est la vie. Bottom line is I think I've lost any reason to support the research and development in Cryptonote or RingCT (unless something changes my understanding of the issues, which is highly doubtful at this point).

I support the creative attempt of Iota to solve the scaling and centralization issues. I argue in my Decentralized thread that they failed technologically, but I have no qualms about them getting some ROI in the markets. I mean we need to fund research otherwise without experiments then no progress will be made. For example, Iota's design influenced my thinking/design on how to potentially improve Satoshi's PoW design. That seems to be how progress is made by taking inspiration from each other and of course starting with Satoshi.

I was actually more positive on Bitshares until via private communications some others convinced me the likelihood that there is no adoption and many gimicks to mine the speculators. I took another look to see what had changed or been accomplished since 2013 when I stopped following it closely. And Bitshares is still off in bizarro hyperbole fantasy land in my opinion. I don't understand those guys at all. They certainly think they are up to something important, but none of it makes sense to me. Nobody is going to want to move all their trades onto one system. I don't see any compelling use cases of BitUSD (removing volatility doesn't make crypto attractive to the masses, and the speculators want volatility). Etc.. I just think Dan conceptualizes everything backwards from how I would. And I think I have a more correct understanding of economics, marketing, and what can work and what can't.

I am particularly disappointed with Ethereum. $millions down the hole and they didn't solve the fundamental issue for a scripting block chain. I support research but not wasting $millions with no major research achievements. At least with Zcash, they come hat in hand with blockbuster accomplishments in research already completed. For example, imagine I actually wanted to program (invest my effort) apps built on top of Ethereum, but I would not have the confidence to do so, because they haven't solved the fundamental technical issue. How can I get excited about what I can't use. I get excited about Android programming, because I can use it. I get excited about Node.js because I can use it in real projects.

About Nxt, I can't comment, because I have a conflict of interest.

For the 100s of other coins, that is far too much for me to study.

I provided some thoughts about Ripple and Stellar the prior day (just go to page 34 or so of my Decentralization thread).

It's getting time. There have been a lot of voices calling this Vaporware. Now we will see if it get's really finished. :)

I am a big fan of start up coins but it should be good and promising not just another shit coin to over crowd the crypto currency world
would like to see how this coin goes and what are it's advantage and disadvantages over the other coins..

Maidsafe Coin is far from shit coin but you will need to trade it in for SAFE Coin when the network is live.

You pay SAFE Coin to store data on the SAFE Network.

All data packets on the SAFE Network are encrypted.

Use will just grow from there as more services and apps are added to work on the SAFE Network.

Go to forums.safenetwork.io to ask questions or check out maidsafe.net, their official website!

Don't miss the rocket to the moon!

https://i.imgur.com/xeIV1xA.png

It has been explained by the devs, that when the network launches, MaidSafe will be exchanged for SAFE coins at a 1:1 rate, and since "most" of the coins are in Poloniex, it will all happen between the exchange and the devs, so users won't have to worry about anything.

I've been hearing about MAIDSafe coin for a long time but they will only release this month ? What's that joke ?

I follow http://blog.mpettis.com/ and Martin Armstrong. Armstrong has consistently said China will have a crisis starting 2017 and bottom in 2020 (but I don't know about Yuan and FX crisis), as well that oil will rise again in 2017 as the War Cycle heats up to hot wars. Pettis has argued that China needs to rebalance from manufacturing to services and they would need < 3% growth for a decade. Both have made the point that China has refused to revert to the mean and thus will suffer Waterfall collapse 2017 - 2020 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg13765108#msg13765108). Armstrong has noted $850 billion of capital exodus from China just within the past year, as the wealthy diversify out of China and into SE Asia and more so luxury investments in the USA and USD denominated investments.

Note China and India will rise up and be the financial leaders of the world from 2032 onwards (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg13773738#msg13773738).

Edit: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35516054

Storj guy here. All of the actor vectors you described are addressed in the our whitepaper or a blog post.

1) Sybil - Bonds and unique pieces
2) Illegal content - Greylists
3) Bandwidth vs storage - pay for both

But TPTB is a genius and you are an imbecile. He is so smart that he can determine your cryptocurrency is broken, worthless, and doomed without even researching it or reading the whitepaper.  ::)

I feel sorry for all of the people that consider everything he has to say as the gospel, because he will certainly claim he is correct and never wrong.. apparently without even doing the proper research.

I read the white paper last week.


There is no way to do proof-of-storage that is robust. The only way is to make some assumptions about latency of propagation to a centralized copy of all files, but that can be gamed. Propagation is not proof.


The Storj FAQ confirms (http://storj.io/faq.html#faq-5-4) these are opt-in, and not forced. Thus I maintain my point that the Storj protocol can become banned (refused) by Hosts (and even ISPs). We are moving into totalitarianism and increased government control over the internet.

This direction of enabling theft of copyrights is begging for your project to be attacked and fail.


Pay how? Micropayments for each access to bandwidth?

How to pay for storage when it is decentralized with unbounded replications and can be Sybil attacked.

Sorry these decentralized systems are doomed. The concept can't work (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1340057.msg13814104#msg13814104).

 Torrents exist.

For a little while (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7W33HRc1A6c#t=449).

And KimDotFatCom is not in prison for a little while longer.

The mathematical models are right there in the paper. We are collecting live data from the network, which proves the models are correct.

"Its not going to work" in face of real data showing that is working is not going to cut it. Please provide some data or mathematical models that say otherwise. Latency doesn't matter for proofs.

so which one

maid or storj? and why?

This is the entire point though... how can the normal joe bloggs know what to think. TPTB certainly gives convincing argument (well from the small parts most can understand) and nobody seems to really challenge his points - mostly because it is way beyond the scope of the general board reader so they have no clue.... even seasoned well known devs and coders either agree with him or can never seem to convincingly point out he is dead wrong except perhaps one time and he acknowledged it and moved on without an issue. So all the other times they seem to meet headlong into each other it seems like a lengthy drawn out discussion where eventually the discussion seems at an end and I never really know what to think.

I mean if he says these projects have issues then I get worried. If say cfb and monsterer and smooth agree then I guess it is very worrying.
The thing is this. Can it work to a point we can profit from this price point and fail to be an ideal solution later down the road with out modification ( kind of like what some would argue btc is doing long term without being modified) or is it just a total bogus idea that will never function well from the start?

Or is it fine?

I'd love to see the trades the top coders or most knowledgeable cryptographers on here make at exchanges. Do any of the top coders here that don't work on these project hold any maid or storj? I have a little of both and do like the idea.

Of course decentralized file systems are not compatible with the 19th century business models of the MPAA and RIAA, such as placing music on Edison Cylinders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph_cylinder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph_cylinder) and then distributing the Edison Cylinders by sailing ship. That does not mean however that decentralized file systems are doomed, what it does mean is that decentralized file systems will serve to further accelerate the demise of these 19th century business models, and the corporations that promote them.

Testnets do not prove that the Sybil attack resistance and payment model economics work (because game theory is fully incentivized in the wild).

Regarding case 1) in the quote above, the fact is the math models are often myopic[1] (and again that is so in this case (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13650450#msg13650450)), because it is impossible to prove proof-of-storage/retrievability:

These proof-of-storage/retrievability algorithms also employ a challenge/response to force the node to have access to the full copy of the data which should be stored, but this does not prevent the node from outsourcing the storage to a single centralized repository. So to attempt prevent that centralized repository attack (i.e. Sybil attack on the nodes) these proof-of-storage/retrievability algorithms “try to use network latency to prevent centralized outsourcing, but [that is impossible because] ubiquitously consistent network latency is not a reliable commodity”.

[1]

Meni Rosenfeld's myopic math, and note Meni is a widely respected academic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13633504#msg13633504 And my explanation of the myopia: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13797768#msg13797768 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13819991#msg13819991 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13763395#msg13763395 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13647887#msg13647887

---

The political argument is irrelevant for as long as the technology and payment (economic) models are irreparably flawed, as I explained above.

I am proposing a solution.

1. The DHT (a distributed database keyed on file hash that returns a list of repositories of the file) should be an orthogonal protocol to the storage repositories protocol. The DHT can be stored on users' computers operating P2P over the users' home ISP connections. This is a low bandwidth protocol, so won't violate the asymmetry of upload versus download bandwidth physics for home ISP connections which I explained dooms Bittorrent (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1340057.msg13814104#msg13814104).

2. Creators of files must have a means to record their policies (and also perhaps/optionally their verifiable identity). I have suggested that before they publish the file, they create a record in a block chain. Policies could include for example the crypto currency payment per download expected (this record could be updated on the block chain by the signer of the original record). To record a verifiable identity, I suggested including a SSL/TLS enabled URL and signing it with the public/private key of the site certificate, so that governments can blame the site owner for copyright infringements. If the URL is taken offline, then storage repositories should remove the file if they want to be compliant with government edicts (of course decentralized providers can do what ever they want). The protocol for the DHT could either honor (or not honor) the URL removals, so perhaps there should be two versions of the DHT so that at least the one that honors government edicts won't be banned by ISPs. Users could run both versions (if they can). Note afaik DHT consensus is like a block chain in that all have to agree (c.f. David Mazières' work on Steller's SCP consensus protocol and the venerable Kademlia DHT (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13778110#msg13778110)), or if not the DHT could be combined with a longest chain rule of a block chain to enforce a global consensus on DHT policies.

3. Of course payment policies can't be enforced on decentralized storage providers and it is impossible to prove that files have been served and the crypto currency payment to the creator wasn't enforced by the storage provider, but content creators can't stop download theft by decentralized repositories any way. Note that any storage provider that advertises that it violates policies can thus be prosecuted by the State (and note this new design encourages storage repositories to be hosted not run from users' computers), so in reality the warez shit will remain non-mainstream same as for Bittorrent (e.g. fraudster MegaFatKimDotCom (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/01/mega-man-the-bizarre-rise-and-sudden-downfall-of-kim-dotcom/) shit will always be shut down by the State) because also note my point that the DHT can honor policies and thus without advertising the theft-oriented provider can't be located by users. The storage provider might also be charging a crypto payment for serving the file (and to fund its operation including the storage). So that solves the issue of how to pay for this system, because the irreparable concept of proof-of-storage/retrievability is discarded.

4. As for IPFS's concept of moving the cache of immutable content closer to the request (to reduce bandwidth consumption × distance), I think this can be handled by algorithms running on a layer on top of the DHT.

So this provides the best of all worlds. We also stop the asymmetric consumption of upload bandwidth which Bittorrent is fucking up the internet with as I warned them in 2008 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1340057.msg13814104#msg13814104).

Note afaik that none of the decentralized file systems currently proposed (and in development or near release) are implementing the above correct design. That includes MaidSafe, Storj, Sia, IPFS/Filecoin, etc..

I have emailed to Juan Benet, the creator of IPFS, a link to this.

Edit: so MegaFat deployed the fraudulent profits from reselling copyrighted content to buy himself a filipina (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcoms-wife-fights-living-allowance-continue-another-year-gb-p-132671) prostitute[mail order bride] Monica Verga that he saw in FHM magazine (which btw is also technically illegal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Mail-Order_Bride_Law) but mostly unenforced):

http://i0.wp.com/www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/monica_verga_21.jpghttp://www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/monica_verga_3.jpg

The political argument becomes relevant when it is proposed to incorporate the failed business models of big copyright into the Maidsafe blockchain. My take is that the Maidsafe community will have enough common sense to not make this mistake.

By the way ThePirateBay is alive and well after over 12 years despite the failed efforts of big copyright and one can type into the "Pirate Search" and download all sorts of perfectly legal and non copyright infringing content.

Note my proposal around having two versions of the DHT is to let the free market decide. Any one who is for freedom should not try to force their "wisdom" on the free market.

PirateBay is not mainstream. If you are determined to only impact 0.01% of the $50 trillion annual global economy, then you don't have the ambition I have. There are billions of people who need our assistance via our technological progress. Only a fool neglects that because of selfish ideology.

He gives good technical analysis, and I wish he would just stick to that.

However, he tries to pass as an expert in all facets of business, marketing, speculation, cryptocurrencies (which are much more than simply technical analysis), etc... no one is a jack of all trades no matter how much they try to convince themselves as such. Then he injects his personal opinions (ideological, political, etc.) into his "technical" arguments which largely discredits the "technical" arguments he is making (since they are not purely technical and are at least partially based on opinion.) Then he tries to act as if his conclusions are not at least partially based on opinions, but are purely based on facts, and there is no way he's wrong since they're based on facts.  ::)

You don't see many people "challenging his points" because no one wants to waste their whole day arguing with him. He will literally argue with you all day (if you want) since he's so stubborn, knows everything about everything, and you are an imbecile. I am happy I made it to his ignore list... I have so much free time now. :)

Spinmasters are short on facts and long on spin.

Please point out the factual errors in my post mr. "ima ignore u"

There is evidence ITT of you marrying your technical analysis with opinion.... as you often do, just more subtly.

Maidsafe is a fantastic project, I have been following it for a while, it's apparently older than BTC. Im glad to see that it's moving, even if slowly. The migration to Crust is being a success and we will soon have a functional release.
Maidsafe uses the same principle than Freenet but improved a lot, and I don't see how Freenet has been banned since if the network is really small, it still works, so Maidsafe will be even better. I have seen TPTB discrediting almost everything. I want him to go to the safecoin forums and try to argue with david irvine and the rest about those supposed Maidsafe's "fatal flaws", meanwhile im just buying more during this correction because it hasn't even begin to pump, the coin is just too damn undervalued.

Send David Irvine over here so he can prove his is not afraid to debate me. I will not debate him in his own forum where he has moderation control.

I will slaughter his arguments if he comes here, so you can expect he will not. I am not at all afraid of him. Bring it on!

Instead he will stay in his controlled spinmaster ecochamber where he can preach to the faithful.

I have watched him on video. I know what I am dealing with in him. Let him try to debate about that nonsense about anonymity in MaidSafe (or has he abandoned that claim by now?).

But you are the one making such claims, you should be the one that has to defend them and prove the developers wrong. I don't think they would shut your thread down if you are respectful about it, but if you have a show off stance they might, but I have seen other people make criticism on the forum and no one has deleted the threads. It's not the same creating a thread saying "I think Maidsafe has X flaws" than saying "Maidsafe is doomed!!!".

It is his choice whether he wants to come here to debate me or not.

No one is paying me.

I only post here and rarely in Reddit (and recently in the Zcash forum only because I am formerly AnonyMint so I have a historical obligation on the anonymity issue).

I am actually trying to stop posting. So I think what I have stated upthread is already sufficient. If anyone wants to debate me on the facts, then do it. I am reading.

Seems Bryce Weiner @ Unobtanium claims to be working on (https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/drm-blockchains-interview-bryce-weiner/) something like this.

hasn't it it already launched? Coin is available to trade at polo?

Guys what you think where can finish maidsafecoin price? Can its ever hit 1$ ?

In addition to my posts (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1354274.msg13834222#msg13834222) upthread, I also explained in my video (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.msg13891286#msg13891286) why proof-of-storage/retrievability can't work.

how much hdd space will I need to run the SAFE client software

Yes the coin is available for trade. But the software is just getting its "MVP" (Minimal Viable Product) released now. We're finally getting to the testing phase. Then the testnet will run, devs will fix whatever bugs and add whatever features needed, and finally we'll end up with the actual product and the SAFE Network going live.


The software doesn't require tremendous space as you would think. I don't know the exact size, but I doubt it'll exceed a bunch of MBs. As for farming, the more HDD space you have, the more percentage of the network you have, the more coins you'll get depending on the network. But right now it's just the beta phase, so if any coins are implemented in the testnet they'll be worthless.

You lost my attention after you posted this crap... Bryce weiner is on of the worst in crypto land...

Such a funny name on the coin :D, is it worth investing?

moonsafe

any premine  ???

OK

Could you please elaborate on this?

With the imminent release of Homestead and major improvements to API's, EVM etc I cant help wondering if your statement above comes prematurely?

Whilst you are a well-recognized authority in this field so is Nick Szabo, who is an outspoken advocate of Ethereum.

Is it not possible that Ethereum will become that which you seek @TPTB_need_war?

Vis-a-vis MAID, there is no blockchain to speak of iirc and the tech seems highly experimental at this stage. Your involvement is intriguing though. Isn't IPFS the current leader in decentralized storage?

Thanks

As a reminder of one important detail in the upcoming release: